Preamp shootout...Predictions on which will be the best?

[Al M.]

My very general take on passive buffered attenuator boxes/TVCs versus active line stage preamps, is that:

-- active preamps provide greater dynamics, but at the cost of transparency compared to passive devices, and

-- it takes a very carefully designed, generally expensive line stage preamp to replicate the transparency of, or close to the transparency of, a passive preamp while still preserving the dynamics benefits of the active amplification device.

In other words a Pareto optimal improvement (at least one sonic attribute is better with no sonic attributes being inferior) active line stage over a passive is expensive.

In general I agree. A complicating factor is synergy with the power amp. Not all combos work well in my experience.

 

[Ricky64]

They way I see preamp and rest of the system in music chain is like this. The steamer, DAC, amps and speakers are like the science behind the music and the preamp is the actual "Art" of the system, giving a bit of form and character. In other ways, preamp (especially active preamp) is like the heart that gives/adds emotions like no other chain/components. Like a chef who gives flavor using the ingredients.
I have had few preamps in my system and you should try Aries Cerat preamps (even their reference grade- I have incito S: are phenomenal). Best of luck in your search.

I would be interested in Aries Cerat, but my system for critical listening is also our system for watching TV and movies. My kids often put the remote somewhere I can never find it. Thus, some form of volume control, preferably rotary, will be on the front panel...

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thanks Ron. What are some of the active preamps that you've tried/heard that manage to preserve transparency?

I have not done any proper, methodologically valid comparisons.

In a vacuum, without a comparison, and just based on my general sense of listening in familiar systems I think that VTL TL-7.5 Series III, current production Aesthetix Callisto, ARC Reference 10 and VAC Statement provide the dynamics benefits of active preamp while still preserving transparency. These just happen to be a few random preamps I'm sufficiently familiar with to be comfortable that they preserve transparency. This list is not in limitation or derogation of any other preamp.

I think that the top-of-the-line preamps from all of the major solid-state electronics manufacturers (Gryphon, CH, darTZeel, Soulution, D'Agostino, etc.) also preserve transparency. It's not hard to achieve; it is just that the preamps that to do it tend to be expensive.

 

[RaChiK]

I would be interested in Aries Cerat, but my system for critical listening is also our system for watching TV and movies. My kids often put the remote somewhere I can never find it. Thus, some form of volume control, preferably rotary, will be on the front panel...

Aries cerat remotes are heavy, metallic and looks like a piece of art. But yeah, I understand the lack of rotary front panel volume knob.

 

[Rexp]

Currently running a Grimm Mu1-->MM Tambaqui-->Gryphon Essence--> Rockport Atria ii's. Lovely, fast, transparent sound with great imaging, but issues with dynamics and presence that I believe are due to lack of a pre amp. Have a bit of an oddball lineup, but will be listening to a Grimm Mu2 (driving into amp), Soulution 725. Soulnote P-3, and Thrax Dionysus.
Any predictions on which of these will sound best? Will keep you posted.

I would bet a change of DAC makes the improvement you seek. Whether the MU2 is the one for you remains to be seen. Good luck!

 

[PYP]

Currently running a Grimm Mu1-->MM Tambaqui-->Gryphon Essence--> Rockport Atria ii's. Lovely, fast, transparent sound with great imaging, but issues with dynamics and presence that I believe are due to lack of a pre amp. Have a bit of an oddball lineup, but will be listening to a Grimm Mu2 (driving into amp), Soulution 725. Soulnote P-3, and Thrax Dionysus.
Any predictions on which of these will sound best? Will keep you posted.

The thread below mentions that "And rumor has it that an update is in the works of proving pass through options for the MU2 with adjusted output voltage to match to external pre amps." If true, that could benefit your comparison process.

Grimm Audio MU1 and MU2 Music Players

audiophilestyle.com

 

[Cleese74]

Hi! I am a Essence owner, and my pre amp is a Nagra Classic. I'm very happy with it.

 

[morricab]

Hi! I am a Essence owner, and my pre amp is a Nagra Classic. I'm very happy with it.

A friend of mine has the Nagra classic. He brought it to my place a couple of times and it sounded quite good.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Preamp shootout...Predictions on which will be the best?​

Its simple the one you prefer , is the best for you.

Not necessarily for others

 

[Gregm]

in a valve based system that preamp is highly transparent to recordings. Very see through. There is no loss of valve magic with the phono and preamp being valves, there is a gain in see- throughness and clarity. I don’t like Soulution with Soulution. It might not apply to you as you are digital only

(my emphasis) In my experience, and your brief description, it applies equally to a digital source.

 

[Ricky64]

Preamp shootout...Predictions on which will be the best?​

Its simple the one you prefer , is the best for you.

Not necessarily for others

Agree! The perspectives offered here have been very valuable though.

 

[2fastdriving]

I nearly always prefer a preamp from the same brand/line as the power amp. They are generally voiced together to enforce a certain house sound, and you either love it or not. Mixing and matching can work but it will be a lot of stress and effort, IMHO. Plus you can't always have them all at the same time and it's tough to compare apples to apples over a time period.

 

[Atmasphere]

My very general take on passive buffered attenuator boxes/TVCs versus active line stage preamps, is that:

-- active preamps provide greater dynamics, but at the cost of transparency compared to passive devices, and

-- it takes a very carefully designed, generally expensive line stage preamp to replicate the transparency of, or close to the transparency of, a passive preamp while still preserving the dynamics benefits of the active amplification device.

In other words a Pareto optimal improvement (at least one sonic attribute is better with no sonic attributes being inferior) active line stage over a passive is expensive.

I guess that depends on what is meant by 'expensive'. I've yet to see a passive that can keep up with a good active preamp on any of the points you raised above. But I guess that might depend on what is meant by 'good'.

One thing passives fail at miserably is cable control. As a result, the choice of cable used for success with a passive will be critical. So the cables may wind up costing more than the passive!

With a good line stage, there is a lot more cable immunity. This is simply because the cable is being driven by the (hopefully) lower output impedance that a line stage offers. When you use a passive, its resistance is in series with the source. So I find the coloration passives often introduce is that of a lack of impact. At full volume they are fine, but as soon as you turn them down the bass suffers. But if you listen just a bit more carefully you find that the entire bandwidth is lacking impact.

We make some of the first passive volume controls back about 1990. I really think they are an example of how things can get too simple to the point that they don't work. If you really want to use a passive properly, it should be built into the power amplifier. For that you'd also need multiple inputs...

 

[stehno]

I guess that depends on what is meant by 'expensive'. I've yet to see a passive that can keep up with a good active preamp on any of the points you raised above. But I guess that might depend on what is meant by 'good'.

One thing passives fail at miserably is cable control. As a result, the choice of cable used for success with a passive will be critical. So the cables may wind up costing more than the passive!

With a good line stage, there is a lot more cable immunity. This is simply because the cable is being driven by the (hopefully) lower output impedance that a line stage offers. When you use a passive, its resistance is in series with the source. So I find the coloration passives often introduce is that of a lack of impact. At full volume they are fine, but as soon as you turn them down the bass suffers. But if you listen just a bit more carefully you find that the entire bandwidth is lacking impact.

We make some of the first passive volume controls back about 1990. I really think they are an example of how things can get too simple to the point that they don't work. If you really want to use a passive properly, it should be built into the power amplifier. For that you'd also need multiple inputs...

I pretty much disagree with most all that you said - though obviously you've significantly more experience than me.

One way to demonstrate at least a sufficient-enough level of dynamics is by a system’s potential or perceived PRAT. IOW, no dynamics, no PRAT. But I think this video is a reasonable-enough demonstration for just that. If you give it some juice.

BTW, in time past I might have agreed with most of your post above. But in 2014 I took possession of a $2500 pair of Class D monoblock amps @ 575wpc to replace my $8k integrated amp @ 185wpc. And since I'd long since sold my last pre-amp I was left with no choice but to temporarily use my new OPPO's passive volume attenuator. Prior to this, I'd sworn I'd never waste my time with another passive pre. Since 2014, I've sworn never to go back to an active pre again and I've still got the same config today.

Apparently, what's not so commonly known is, without an amplified gain stage, the presentation requires significantly greater amplification at the amp stage. As a result I'm confident I'm getting a more genuine sense of the live performance as all the music remains up on the soundstage while my ears remain planted firmly in the audience.

The dynamics are still there, they're just all up on the soundstage where they belong with the rest of the music and no longer are they a bit in-my-face so-to-speak. And with at least some passive pre's, the potential to exhibit more pristine and even more delicate notes becomes possible. IME. And I'm guessing the reason for this greater potential for pristine and delicate is when we eliminate the amplified gain stage, we've just eliminated another source of distortions because presumably anytime the input signal is amplified that amplifcation process induces more distortions. IOW, as distortions are reduced, everything potentially becomes a bit more pristine and delicate or a bit more musical. But I'm guessing.

So at least in my limited experience with only one such config under my belt, a passive pre config with significanly higher amplification provides a potentially more genuinely musical presentation - dynamics and all.

 

[Atmasphere]

I pretty much disagree with most all that you said - though obviously you've significantly more experience than me.

One way to demonstrate at least a sufficient-enough level of dynamics is by a system’s potential or perceived PRAT. IOW, no dynamics, no PRAT. But I think this video is a reasonable-enough demonstration for just that. If you give it some juice.

BTW, in time past I might have agreed with most of your post above. But in 2014 I took possession of a $2500 pair of Class D monoblock amps @ 575wpc to replace my $8k integrated amp @ 185wpc. And since I'd long since sold my last pre-amp I was left with no choice but to temporarily use my new OPPO's passive volume attenuator. Prior to this, I'd sworn I'd never waste my time with another passive pre. Since 2014, I've sworn never to go back to an active pre again and I've still got the same config today.

Apparently, what's not so commonly known is, without an amplified gain stage, the presentation requires significantly greater amplification at the amp stage. As a result I'm confident I'm getting a more genuine sense of the live performance as all the music remains up on the soundstage while my ears remain planted firmly in the audience.

The dynamics are still there, they're just all up on the soundstage where they belong with the rest of the music and no longer are they a bit in-my-face so-to-speak. And with at least some passive pre's, the potential to exhibit more pristine and even more delicate notes becomes possible. IME. And I'm guessing the reason for this greater potential for pristine and delicate is when we eliminate the amplified gain stage, we've just eliminated another source of distortions because presumably anytime the input signal is amplified that amplifcation process induces more distortions. IOW, as distortions are reduced, everything potentially becomes a bit more pristine and delicate or a bit more musical. But I'm guessing.

So at least in my limited experience with only one such config under my belt, a passive pre config with significanly higher amplification provides a potentially more genuinely musical presentation - dynamics and all.

Since this is all anecdotal anyway, it is going to come down to what equipment you've worked with as opposed to that which you have not. I don't know what OPPO you might be referring; OPPO used a volume control chip that was actually pretty good and not what I would call passive!

The preamps I'm working with are balanced and support AES48 (the balanced line connection standard) and also support low impedance operation so can drive 600 Ohms directly. They do that with a patented direct-coupled output using tubes (6SN7s). What I found was the biggest coloration most tube preamps have is generally caused by how well their power supplies are regulated and the coupling cap at the output. Fix those problems and the passive controls don't have a chance. While the OPPO system was very good, its not as good as a custom built switch with fixed resistors controlling both phases of the balanced signal internally.

While this sounds exotic, as these things go the preamps aren't all that expensive, although more so than the OPPO. So it really does come down to what is meant by 'good' and 'expensive'

 

[stehno]

Since this is all anecdotal anyway, it is going to come down to what equipment you've worked with as opposed to that which you have not. I don't know what OPPO you might be referring; OPPO used a volume control chip that was actually pretty good and not what I would call passive!

The preamps I'm working with are balanced and support AES48 (the balanced line connection standard) and also support low impedance operation so can drive 600 Ohms directly. They do that with a patented direct-coupled output using tubes (6SN7s). What I found was the biggest coloration most tube preamps have is generally caused by how well their power supplies are regulated and the coupling cap at the output. Fix those problems and the passive controls don't have a chance. While the OPPO system was very good, its not as good as a custom built switch with fixed resistors controlling both phases of the balanced signal internally.

While this sounds exotic, as these things go the preamps aren't all that expensive, although more so than the OPPO. So it really does come down to what is meant by 'good' and 'expensive'

So it really boils down to what is meant by “good” and “expensive”, eh?

Yet, with all your described experiences you find yourself forever in the classic preconceived narrative position of a passive pre and lack of dynamics scenario and you’re still unable to generate a reasonably-dynamic presentation?

I cna agree with you on the "good" part but I'm still fuzzy on the "expensive" part. FWIW, besides replacing my $8k BMC integrated amp with a significantly more musical $2500 pair of Wyred-4-Sound Class D mono-block amps, at about that same time in 2014, I also replaced my $8400 Esoteric CDP with a significantly more musical $1300 OPPO. And never looked back.

Answer me this. With your experience and whatever “good” and “expensive” active pre config you’ve got, do you think your system can match or exceed the dynamics and musicality of this piece I shared earlier in this thread? If you give it the juice.

 

[Atmasphere]

So it really boils down to what is meant by “good” and “expensive”, eh?

Yet, with all your described experiences you find yourself forever in the classic preconceived narrative position of a passive pre and lack of dynamics scenario and you’re still unable to generate a reasonably-dynamic presentation?

I cna agree with you on the "good" part but I'm still fuzzy on the "expensive" part. FWIW, besides replacing my $8k BMC integrated amp with a significantly more musical $2500 pair of Wyred-4-Sound Class D mono-block amps, at about that same time in 2014, I also replaced my $8400 Esoteric CDP with a significantly more musical $1300 OPPO. And never looked back.


Answer me this. With your experience and whatever “good” and “expensive” active pre config you’ve got, do you think your system can match or exceed the dynamics and musicality of this piece I shared earlier in this thread? If you give it the juice.

To be clear, you are not running a passive volume control. The OPPO uses an active system. In short we're on the same page.

To answer your last question: sure. FWIW, dynamics comes from the signal not the equipment. If the equipment is messing up, you can lose dynamic impact, but if you gain 'dynamics' its a pretty good bet that distortion is playing a role (this is common with SETs for example).

If I can point something out here- high end audio is not driven by price although many people think it is. Instead its driven by intention. That is why OPPO did so well with their relatively inexpensive products. My guess is they likely priced them according to a formula rather than to what the market will bear and there was someone important in the company who was an audiophile. So answering your first question: maybe.

To answer your 2nd question- since I've run into that a lot, I've not bothered since a passive won't work right unless you put it inside the thing you are driving with it (for example inside an integrated amp).

 

[stehno]

To be clear, you are not running a passive volume control. The OPPO uses an active system. In short we're on the same page.

To answer your last question: sure. FWIW, dynamics comes from the signal not the equipment. If the equipment is messing up, you can lose dynamic impact, but if you gain 'dynamics' its a pretty good bet that distortion is playing a role (this is common with SETs for example).

If I can point something out here- high end audio is not driven by price although many people think it is. Instead its driven by intention. That is why OPPO did so well with their relatively inexpensive products. My guess is they likely priced them according to a formula rather than to what the market will bear and there was someone important in the company who was an audiophile. So answering your first question: maybe.

To answer your 2nd question- since I've run into that a lot, I've not bothered since a passive won't work right unless you put it inside the thing you are driving with it (for example inside an integrated amp).

If the OPPO volume attenuation is not passive, this is the first I've heard of such. As I recall, OPPO called it passive as well as a host of others reviewing / evaluating it. I remember reading a 10 or 20 page white paper discussing how OPPO was using unused portions of the 32-bit ESS Sabre DACs for that specific puprose reportedly with zero bit loss.

Not to mention the sonic characteristics of the OPPO's volume attentuator behave much like a passive (significantly lowered volume levels, improved clarity, etc).

Do you have any evidence that the OPPO's volume attenuation is not passive?

 

[Holmz]

I nearly always prefer a preamp from the same brand/line as the power amp. They are generally voiced together to enforce a certain house sound, and you either love it or not. Mixing and matching can work but it will be a lot of stress and effort, IMHO. Plus you can't always have them all at the same time and it's tough to compare apples to apples over a time period.

In a perfect world, almost all preamps, and amps, and DACs… should just be like a wire with gain.
TT, cart and arm, as well as speakers, are where convert mechanical in electrical and visa versa.

Some amps and preamps have measurable distortion, and some people like that… but Hi Fidelity, by definition, means that the signal does not get distorted.

Hence; the amp and pre should really not have a lot of voicing.

The easiest places for it all to go sideways, is with output impedance being low and low frequencies going through transformers.

A passive pre really may be great when it is run wide open, but as the volume goes low it suffers.

 

[Rexp]

To be clear, you are not running a passive volume control. The OPPO uses an active system. In short we're on the same page.

To answer your last question: sure. FWIW, dynamics comes from the signal not the equipment. If the equipment is messing up, you can lose dynamic impact, but if you gain 'dynamics' its a pretty good bet that distortion is playing a role (this is common with SETs for example).

If I can point something out here- high end audio is not driven by price although many people think it is. Instead its driven by intention. That is why OPPO did so well with their relatively inexpensive products. My guess is they likely priced them according to a formula rather than to what the market will bear and there was someone important in the company who was an audiophile. So answering your first question: maybe.

To answer your 2nd question- since I've run into that a lot, I've not bothered since a passive won't work right unless you put it inside the thing you are driving with it (for example inside an integrated amp).

Yes the only passives I've enjoyed are either incorporated with the power amp or separates manufactured by the same company and designed to be used together.
I have heard some reasonable DAC/Pre's straight into power amps , although I wouldn't call them high end.