Preamp shootout...Predictions on which will be the best?

[Holmz]

The source is always the most important and the reviewer has the MU1 and Tambaqui so thought you may be interested.

While generally ^that^ is the consensus, anything going from mechanical to electric, or visa versa, is arguably the hardest.
So speakers/drivers, and carts can be more difficult than pure electronics.

Almost any solid state amp has distortion levels that are orders of decades lower than the best speakers.
So objectively they can be labeled as “Hi Fi”.

Personally I do not like hiss, and while I like the Doors song “riders on the storm”, I do not want every song to sound like rain is falling. (Or other music to hiss like a basket of vipers at a pentacostal revival.)

Whether it sounds appealing with distortions is another matter. And there are a bevy of WAF and Shun Fei things that also factor in.

There are enough good preamps that it should be relatively easy to get a decent one.

 

[Ricky64]

A funny thing happened on the way to the forum... A friend in the Boulder area who works professionally in high end audio came by to look and listen to my setup. He brought a few tweak type devices. At this point, I was convinced the SoulNote P-3 was too bright and shallow in imaging depth for my system. After some tweaking with some electrical and isolation devices, the system sounded completely different, and quite frankly, incredible. I still am having cognitive dissonance relating to the experience. I struggle to explain the dramatic sound difference to what I would have viewed as illogical tweaks. (My profession training has pounded into me a need for judgements to be based on objective evidence.) Now, I have to assimilate the dramatic changes that isolation and noise, and other setup factors make in component evaluation. I've previously been dismissive of conversations relating to isolation and component setup.
Audiophilia is a complicated pursuit... That being said, an Aesthetix Metis and Mu2 arrive this week. Too many variables right now!

 

[MRJAZZ]

A funny thing happened on the way to the forum... A friend in the Boulder area who works professionally in high end audio came by to look and listen to my setup. He brought a few tweak type devices. At this point, I was convinced the SoulNote P-3 was too bright and shallow in imaging depth for my system. After some tweaking with some electrical and isolation devices, the system sounded completely different, and quite frankly, incredible. I still am having cognitive dissonance relating to the experience. I struggle to explain the dramatic sound difference to what I would have viewed as illogical tweaks. (My profession training has pounded into me a need for judgements to be based on objective evidence.) Now, I have to assimilate the dramatic changes that isolation and noise, and other setup factors make in component evaluation. I've previously been dismissive of conversations relating to isolation and component setup.
Audiophilia is a complicated pursuit... That being said, an Aesthetix Metis and Mu2 arrive this week. Too many variables right now!

So what were these mind altering tweeks?

 

[Ricky64]

Embarrassed to say...myrtle wood blocks under the speaker cables, pre, streamer, and dac, along with some "snuffers" plugged into wall outlets.

 

[Rexp]

Embarrassed to say...myrtle wood blocks under the speaker cables, pre, streamer, and dac, along with some "snuffers" plugged into wall outlets.

I'm not surprised, I demoed a hifi Rose streamer that was fussy about what it was sitting on and power has major role in digital playback. What are you playing, Tidal/Qobuz/files?

 

[Rumpole]

Embarrassed to say...myrtle wood blocks under the speaker cables, pre, streamer, and dac, along with some "snuffers" plugged into wall outlets.

Are they the Mulder snuffers? I looked at Gary's web page but I don't see an explanation of the theory. It should be easy to do a blind test if you ask your wife to insert and remove the snuffers, unless you are worried that this will make her suspect you've gone mad . I'm in Lyons and available to help with a blind test.

I'm enjoying your thread - looking forward to your comparisons with the Metis and MU2. I currently don't have a preamp. I'm driving AGD Duet amps directly with XLR cables from my PBD MPS-8 DAC, with YG Hailey 2.2 speakers. But of course I'm wondering if I should try a preamp. I'm also planning on comparing with the MU2, but no ETA yet.

 

[Ricky64]

Are they the Mulder snuffers? I looked at Gary's web page but I don't see an explanation of the theory. It should be easy to do a blind test if you ask your wife to insert and remove the snuffers, unless you are worried that this will make her suspect you've gone mad . I'm in Lyons and available to help with a blind test.

I'm enjoying your thread - looking forward to your comparisons with the Metis and MU2. I currently don't have a preamp. I'm driving AGD Duet amps directly with XLR cables from my PBD MPS-8 DAC, with YG Hailey 2.2 speakers. But of course I'm wondering if I should try a preamp. I'm also planning on comparing with the MU2, but no ETA yet.

Haha! Yes, it was Gary that was over. It was Gary that recommended trying the SoulNote. They had some of the equipment in at the big YG room and loved it. I have Rockports....quite a bit different than YG's. I'm now convinced a pre is needed, at least with a Tambaqui. I'll message you and have you come down sometime. I'm in North Boulder. We might be able to sneak this Mu2 into your system too....

 

[PYP]

Haha! Yes, it was Gary that was over. It was Gary that recommended trying the SoulNote. They had some of the equipment in at the big YG room and loved it. I have Rockports....quite a bit different than YG's. I'm now convinced a pre is needed, at least with a Tambaqui. I'll message you and have you come down sometime. I'm in North Boulder. We might be able to sneak this Mu2 into your system too....

very interested in your comparison of the MU2 vs. MU1 + MMT since I have the same front-end setup and have to wait until mid-March to hear the MU2. Living vicariously has its advantages (no budget outlay ).

Not suffering however since MU1 + MMT (using MMT's attenuator into the MM amps) = music. Had the MU2 not come along, I would just consider what I have as all I need (my wife would smile knowingly at that sentiment since she knows better).

 

[Ricky64]

very interested in your comparison of the MU2 vs. MU1 + MMT since I have the same front-end setup and have to wait until mid-March to hear the MU2. Living vicariously has its advantages (no budget outlay ).

Not suffering however since MU1 + MMT (using MMT's attenuator into the MM amps) = music. Had the MU2 not come along, I would just consider what I have as all I need (my wife would smile knowingly at that sentiment since she knows better).

I told my wife about the Mu2. She is always wanting a limited amount of audio boxes around. However...she told me she likes the looks of the Tambaqui and doesn't want me to get rid of it..... That and we just saw a Mola Mola on a whale watching trip in Monterey... If I tell her that it needs to stay suspended on little wood blocks, though, she might change her mind...

 

[PYP]

I told my wife about the Mu2. She is always wanting a limited amount of audio boxes around. However...she told me she likes the looks of the Tambaqui and doesn't want me to get rid of it..... That and we just saw a Mola Mola on a whale watching trip in Monterey... If I tell her that it needs to stay suspended on little wood blocks, though, she might change her mind...

she obviously has very good taste in audio gear! My wife had a similar reaction when I showed her a photo of the MU2 (sorry Grimm Audio). When I showed her a photo of another possibility -- the Mola Mola Makua preamp -- she said that was "more like us." I really don't disagree. It has been lust at first sight with the Mola Mola gear for me (saw a photo of the Makua nestled between the Kaluga amps many years ago).

Since I like fewer boxes too, I've been thinking about the MU2 vs. a Makua with the built-in DAC (thus, DAC + preamp). But I'm already feeling pretty spoiled given how much musical satisfaction the MU1 + MMT provide.

 

[Ricky64]

Aesthetix Metis and Mu2 now in the house. Cold listening shows the Aesthetix to have very natural dynamics, and excellent depth of imaging. There is some tubey holography going on at times. Definitely not a traditional warm tubey sound though. The Mu2 going directly into pre is a quite different sound than the Mu1-->Tambaqui combination. The latter has quite a bit more treble energy. The Mu2 has strong bass and less air. Two issues. First, need to let the units break in a bit. Next, always a challenge switching away from something a bit brighter to something a bit darker. I will need to listen to the Mu2 a bit to let my brain break in, and judge the sound on its own, rather than by comparison.
Meanwhile the SoulNote is sounding very, very good.
As are the Myrtle blocks....

 

[PYP]

Aesthetix Metis and Mu2 now in the house. Cold listening shows the Aesthetix to have very natural dynamics, and excellent depth of imaging. There is some tubey holography going on at times. Definitely not a traditional warm tubey sound though. The Mu2 going directly into pre is a quite different sound than the Mu1-->Tambaqui combination. The latter has quite a bit more treble energy. The Mu2 has strong bass and less air. Two issues. First, need to let the units break in a bit. Next, always a challenge switching away from something a bit brighter to something a bit darker. I will need to listen to the Mu2 a bit to let my brain break in, and judge the sound on its own, rather than by comparison.
Meanwhile the SoulNote is sounding very, very good.
As are the Myrtle blocks....

Very interesting to follow along with your experiment. Will be very interested in your impressions of the Mu2 with and without an external preamp.

Just from the reviews of the Mu2, it doesn't surprise me that the Mu1 + Tambaqui has more treble energy and I've been wondering if that change would appeal to me. Completely agree to listen to the Mu2 on its own merits. And I'm looking forward to hearing the Mu2 for myself.

Many years ago I had a PS Audio DirectStream, which was much more of an introvert than the Tambaqui and while it was pleasant sounding, it did not capture the aliveness of music. However, I would expect a much higher level of design and implementation for the Mu2 than the PSA of yesteryear.

 

[Ricky64]

A few updates...
-The Grimm Mu2 is an excellent sounding device. Strong bass, sounds a bit darker than the Mu1/MMT combo but detail and imaging seem well preserved. When driving amplifier direct, the soundstage is a bit compacted, with more tight central imaging, and sound between the speakers. With the Tambaqui driving the amp directly (in my system, YMMV), there was similar compaction of soundstage, but was also lean, lacked dynamics, and was a bit flat, although soundstage did have nice depth. With the Mu2 direct, timbre, bass, and dynamics sound good. The main advantage with adding a pre to the Mu2 is expansion of 2D soundstage, or depending on the dac, some brighening, which is a pretty significant quality. I do believed there will be some who prefer the Mu1 and MM Tambaqui combination to the Mu2, as the former gives more sense of excitement and air.
-The Metis initially sounded live a cheap tube guitar amp when I was first listening. It was almost like hitting the reverb or concert hall button on a cheap older component. I discussed with my dealer. With a pre, I was lacking a final pair of Tara 0.8 with onboard noise reduction, and was using some crappy IC's that had been given me. Addition of the Tara Labs IC removed the twangy background I was hearing (this was really dramatic. I haven't paid enough attention to setup, cabling, and noise in the past. Assumed it was all super fine tuning. It's not...It's essential). Presently, the Metis is an imaging champ. Extremely poppy dynamics. Initially some lack of image density with expanded soundstage. This was helped by moving speakers 2" toward wall. There were also new tubes in this unit, so some of this may be runtime.
-The Soulnote continues to just plain sound attractive. It is more subdued in midrange and treble than the Metis. Also, attack is less emphasized. At this point, I find it preferable to the Metis, although it does not center image as strongly, and bass control is not its forte.
-The Metis seems more susceptible to noise in the system. I still might be hearing some of this noise coming through. I currently have crappy power cables and no power cleaning in the system. The lack of capacitors in the Metis probably let's more of this through, and make it more affected my upstream power.

Couple of additional points.
-In the end, I love the Gryphon Essence as I feel it is fast, neutral, and capable. It clearly is not a limiting factor, and will allow me to shape my sound with upstream changes. Same for the Rockports
-I keep being reminded that cabling, isolation, and setup can markedly alter the sound
-I feel the Metis can be made to sound even better. It still sounds a little hyperdynamic and tipped up in upper midrange at this point. I suspect this can be dialed in a bit with better power cords. I still just have generic black computer type cords in my system!
-The SoulNote is a fantastic unit. I really has something very attractive about its presentation. It is just enjoyable to hear. I feel the large soundstage, combination of warmth and detail, fast and not exaggerated attack are its benefits. It's soundstage depth has improved with better cabling. It still has fairly less defined imaging than going direct into amp or the Metis. Also, bass is quite rounded. I feel the Metis might be able to best it in image focus and timbre if I can dial it in a bit more. Also, it's characteristics might have more synergy and bass control with the brighter Mu1/MMT combo than Mu2. I will be checking this.

Thanks for reading!

 

[SCAudiophile]

Hey, chet. This "Dynamic Drums" track is from a Legacy Audio sampler CD #1. They had two and both contain some interesting pieces - including this one.

Yes, great samplers,...they are up to volume 4 and are working on volume 5 now, authorized remixes, remasters, collaborations with Chesky Records and other labels. That track featured a drummer recorded live in Legacy's in house recording setup (Bill spent his early career as a recording engineer working on some very famous albums).

 

[davetheoilguy]

Hi! I am a Essence owner, and my pre amp is a Nagra Classic. I'm very happy with it.

Big fan of Nagra myself. Just got thee Nagra HD and getting used to it. Coupled with the VdH Grail SE phono amp, though, I can already tell it's pretty amazing.

 

[Zeotrope]

I am a big Nagra fan as well, and have heard only superlatives about the HD Preamp.
I have not heard it, however and love my DarTZeel 18NS (and 108 amp). Both are great companies with exceptional customer service, which is a very important factor to consider.

 

[thedudeabides]

Does your ability to discern or interpret what you hear genuinely shutdown when you’re in unfamiliar territory? How is this possible?

Making judgements on sound quality with something posted on an internet site? Really. Please elaborate why that is a valid method for judging SQ and how / why this is possible.

 

[Ricky64]

This has been a very informative journey. I placed an order today (after demo)....for an Accuphase C-3900. I've also found in my system I prefer the Mu1 Tambaqui combination over the Mu2. I have a very busy day and next several days, and will describe my findings and how I arrived at these decisons.

 

[Rexp]

Making judgements on sound quality with something posted on an internet site? Really. Please elaborate why that is a valid method for judging SQ and how / why this is possible.

Perhaps you can start a new thread on this topic....

 

[Ricky64]

Hi Everyone;
This was an interesting journey, putting a few pre's through the system, and picking the component with the most synergy for my tastes. For two years, I refused to believe a pre was needed, at the same time, I had issues with anemic bass (was blaming the amplifier and the room), lack of dynamics, and a rather compressed flat midrange. There was nice transparency, but a lack of midrange density and shape.
My system; Grimm Mu1-->Mola Mola Tambaui-->Gryphon Essence Stereo-->Rockport Atria ii's, Tara Lab 0.8 cabling
Several observations;
-All the preamps I listened to improved the problems I was having with the system.
-Grimm Mu2 is a very nice unit. Pics of the inside show nicer organization and less free wiring than the Mu1. Driving it direct into the Gryphon Essence, it had strong, medium controlled bass, and less high frequency energy than the Mu1--Tambaqui combo. The soundstage was a bit compact in height and side to side, but it had nice depth. Depending on the pre, I preferred it running into a preamp over directly into an amp. Depending on the pre, it could sound a bit rolled off at the top, and lack some high frequency spatial details and air. It seems like a great unit, but will be system dependent, matching better with components that have a bit more energy on top.
-SoulNote P-3; I loved this piece. I liked the industrial look as well as its volume control and interface. The P-3 moves the soundstage forward, and has excellent midrange tonality and density. Dynamics are excellent. It has looser bass control, and imaging is rather diffuse. This unit was voiced on YG speakers, and I can understand how this piece would be synergistic. It has plenty of treble energy, and sound fairly fast, yet is incredibly seductive, and invites long listening.
-Aesthetix Metis; a very cool piece, and I enjoyed its interface. It took many hours for this piece with new tubes to settle in. Toward the end, it had a huge soundstage, and sounded fairly neutral and fast. I preferred the bass over the S-3 on my ported Rockports. Soundstage was large and deep. On the deeper parts of the soundstage, I found a slight distant or veiled quality that wasn't to my taste. Midrange was neutral in color and density. I discussed this with my friend/dealer Carl Jerritts of Apex Audio Denver. He surmised that this was likely my preference for solid state sound over tubes. He suggested I needed to hear a higher end solid state pre that had a touch of warmth.
-Accuphase C3900; Carl pulled this from a friend's system and we played it for about an hour. It declared itself in 30 seconds. Bass was powerful and tight. The soundstage was quite large, yet images had correct focus and density. Soundstage was moved forward a bit, and didn't extend as far behind the speakers as the Metis. Images did appear in the deeper soundstage, but sounded to me a bit more pure than the Metis. This was my winner. I was very impressed at the combination of energy, dynamics, imaging, and large soundstage with a touch of warmth. I feel that it was a good counterpoint to some of the brighter energy of the Tambaqui.

Any one of these units could be the "right one" depending on system synergy. My appreciation for my Gryphon Essence grew appreciably. It is neutral and fast, and portrays well upstream changes. Also, I developed an appreciation for tweaks such as cable lifters and isolation.
To those of you that read, thanks, and hopefully this post can be useful to others.