Price, Value, Worth and COGS

[MylesBAstor]

The masses have never been at a loss for music. The masses create, distribute, absorb, appreciate, re-invent and perpetuate music whether it comes from of sheets, shellacs, discs or digital files. The notion that the masses need to be "brought music" is a conceit. If anything, they probably need to bring it to us. "Can't You Hear Me Knockin'" had my 13-year-old son shaking his hips and waving his arms in here last night, without a single thought about the lovely extension of my tweeters or the tragedy of my lack of a sub. He had not a passing thought of the delivery system; just pure, unadulterated joy in the bringing of the music.

Tim

Actually, no. Take a look back at the history of audio, where we are and where we were. Most of it was driven by mass merchandising.

If we look at the '50s, we had stereo tape and LPs. LPs won out because they could be produced in larger quantities. Then we had digital which won out because it could be produced in larger and larger quantities than LPs. Now we have d/l/MP3 winning out over Cds since they can be made in even larger quantities and for less money.

If sonic virtues were all it was about, then we'd still be using 15 or 30 ips, 2 track tape.

 

[mep]

Actually, no. Take a look back at the history of audio, where we are and where we were. Most of it was driven by mass merchandising.

If we look at the '50s, we had stereo tape and LPs. LPs won out because they could be produced in larger quantities. Then we had digital which won out because it could be produced in larger and larger quantities than LPs. Now we have d/l/MP3 winning out over Cds since they can be made in even larger quantities and for less money.

If sonic virtues were all it was about, then we'd still be using 15 or 30 ips, 2 track tape.

Myles-I’m not sure I agree that LPs won out over tape because they could be produced in larger quantities and ditto for digital winning out over LPs. I think it all comes down to convenience and sales. I firmly believe that RCA and others planned on tape supplanting LPs as the medium of choice. If you own any of the RCA 7 ½ ips 2 track tapes from the 1950s and read the box, RCA clearly states that tape is a far superior medium than LPs and they were marketing tape as the way of the future. But guess what? Housewives couldn’t handle spooling up tape and their husbands probably didn’t want them near their decks either (I did say decks). RCA came out with a new reel tape that actually looked like a very large cassette so that even a housewife could load a tape. That didn’t work either. Meanwhile back at the ranch, the major record labels decided to go to 4 track tapes to make tapes cheaper to manufacture. Once you bought a auto-reverse deck, you could now play both sides of the tape without getting off the couch.

I think CDs were a one-two punch for the record labels. They really thought they were bringing us better sound quality over the LP as well as upping the convenience factor of listening to music by a huge margin. Plus they counted on everyone throwing out their LP collections and re-buying their collection on CD. I don’t think any of this had anything to do with how much they could produce.

 

[KeithR]

Re: SOTA gear and pricing, the infamous and TAS-hyped, Balabo pair is up on the 'gon right now. It will be interesting to see at what price it sells at. That will tell a lot about SOTA pricing policy.

My guess is the 42k the seller wants (preamp) isn't going to happen by a country mile. Half that is a better guess.

 

[Old Listener]

value is importnt to many customers

What was the basic objective (s) of the high-end audio scene then? High-end audio was never about bang for the buck. It was about designing and producing gear that brought the listener one step closer to real music.

I see high-end audio as a continuation of the HiFi hobby and I see no reason why getting one step closer to real music is incompatible with wanting good value for my money. I think there is room in this hobby for people who want good sound and have limits on what they are willing to spend on the gear.

There have been many threads on this and other audiophile forums where audiophiles discuss bang for the buck.

Sound that the mass marketers like Sony, Pioneer, Sansui and the rest of that ilk at that time could only dream about back then --and for the most part, now.

If "mass-marketers" can deliver what I want at an attractive price, I'll take a look. I'm certainly not hung up on rhetoric from the 80s. The mass marketers that interest me now are new names like AudioEngine, Peachtree, HRT and some Pro Audio companies.

So since when has sonic fidelity played second fiddle to price or anything else in the best gear?

Most audiophiles have limits on what they are willing to spend on audio gear. Cost is always a consideration for those customers. Each customer makes his own determination of value as a function of performance and cost.

If the sound sucks, that manufacturer isn't going to be around too long. Nor are they going to be around if the gears not reliable (a major advance in the industry that no one has talked about!!!).

Some boutique manufacturers have a bad reputation for quality control and reliability. They survive anyway.

But then again, there are people here who believe (not you Frantz) that believe everything sounds the same.

Standard audiophile rhetoric. Misrepresent, belittle and dismiss the people who don't agree with you.

Bill

 

[microstrip]

Re: SOTA gear and pricing, the infamous and TAS-hyped, Balabo pair is up on the 'gon right now. It will be interesting to see at what price it sells at. That will tell a lot about SOTA pricing policy.

Most probably you will never know at what price it sells unless you are the happy buyer.
And IMHO it will not tell nothing really new about SOTA pricing policy!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Actually, no. Take a look back at the history of audio, where we are and where we were. Most of it was driven by mass merchandising.

That would be the history of the distribution media, Myles, not the history of audio, and I thought we were talking about getting closer to the "real music." That's an audiophile conceit, the masses rarely give it a second thought.

If we look at the '50s, we had stereo tape and LPs. LPs won out because they could be produced in larger quantities.

OK...so we are off the sound of real music and even audio, and on distribution media? A quick turn but yes, in that conversation this point is spot-on. Vinyl is a compromise, a sacrifice to commerce.

Then we had digital which won out because it could be produced in larger and larger quantities than LPs.

Actually, the first digital recordings were distributed on vinyl. At the time musicians producers and even many audiophiles thought it was about sonics.

Now we have d/l/MP3 winning out over Cds since they can be made in even larger quantities and for less money. /QUOTE]

I think the music industry would take exception with the "winning" part and agree with the "less money." What were we talking about?

If sonic virtues were all it was about, then we'd still be using 15 or 30 ips, 2 track tape.

Ah...sonic virtues again. No, if it were all about sonic virtues, we'd still be playing the piano in the parlor, and my boy would still be grooving to the Stones.

Tim

 

[FrantzM]

It was about designing and producing gear that brought the listener one step closer to real music. Sound that the mass marketers like Sony, Pioneer, Sansui and the rest of that ilk at that time could only dream about back then --and for the most part, now.

Myles

I am of the opinion that these companies did produce some worthwhile gears.. I will say that Technics (Matsuhita/Panasonic) is quite sought after these days .. The SP 10 and the RS-1500 come to mind ... Some people have modified the Denon direct drives to good results ..
It is naive to think the these companies cannot produce superior components. They can and they have. Pioneer's TAD speakers are the real deal according to many. Denon, Sony, Pioneer and Sansui did produce some great gears. Audiophiles in the USA have not received them well .. Not because they didn't sound good but well because they were ... well.. lowly brands. The effort may not be worth their while ...

 

[microstrip]

Actually, the first digital recordings were distributed on vinyl.

Even before that the first digital recordings were "distributed" by FM broadcast -I remember reading about it in Angus McKenzie regular column in Hifi News And Record Review called "FM Radio"

 

[microstrip]

(...) Some people have modified the Denon direct drives to good results ..
(...)

You are just addressing the key point - most of these products needed modifications to reach high-end standards. Take the excellent Technics SP10 - the original plinth was an acoustical disaster, prone to acoustical feedback.

 

[FrantzM]

Again they produced and thinking about it alomost 30 years later the original design was excellent .Now for the plinth most plinths of this era were "acoustic disasters" ... The point that I am sure you didn't miss is that these companies can, have and continue to produce worhtwhile gears some of them can be labelled SOTA.

This is somewhat OT, I'll leave this part of the debate.

 

[mep]

You are just addressing the key point - most of these products needed modifications to reach high-end standards. Take the excellent Technics SP10 - the original plinth was an acoustical disaster, prone to acoustical feedback.

I will find out how good mine is on Friday, 17 June. One thing I know for sure, no one will have a plinth like mine.

 

[JackD201]

While fidelity is easy to set in stone, we have to accept that value is a relative thing. What is justifiable to spend on any item will vary from person to person and trust me on this, the size of that person's disposable income plays a smaller role than people think. It is more a matter of an individual's priorities. One man's staple can be and usually is another's luxury. There is not one of us here to which this does not apply. Even Tim, with his minimalist approach, uses a Macbook Pro and unless he's doing anything processor/math intensive aside from listening to music (which is peanuts for a $300 netbook) the snazzy casing made out of a solid billet of aluminum (hehehe) can easily be said to be a luxury. I personally don't think it is but my point is someone else easily could.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

While fidelity is easy to set in stone

Is it? Let's set it then and bring a huge chunk of this old argument to a close once and for all!

Even Tim, with his minimalist approach, uses a Macbook Pro and unless he's doing anything processor/math intensive aside from listening to music (which is peanuts for a $300 netbook) the snazzy casing made out of a solid billet of aluminum (hehehe) can easily be said to be a luxury. I personally don't think it is but my point is someone else easily could.

Touche, bro!

I'm just doing the usual stuff: email, office, etc. The MacBook Pro's predecessor was a white plastic MacBook G4, a bit more proletariat, but the inspiration for it and the Pro was the operating system and the seamlessness with which it works with all things Apple. The way I look at it, I can put herculean effort in against "standards" that are the very contradiction of the term, like DLNA, or I can simply turn on the Mac, the Airport Extreme, the iPad/Book/Mac/Touch/TV/Express, etc. and watch them do their thing seamlessly, effortlessly and intuitively. And move on immediately to watching movies, listening to music and talking to you guys on the net.

One man's closed system is another's path to freedom. YMMV. The other thing is that when I bought the original MacBook, I was consulting. All my clients were corporate and on Windows. All my suppliers were creative and on Macs. There was one place from which to surf back and forth between the platforms without any problems and that place was most definitely not Windows.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

At least the preservation of the signal is, it just can't be implemented in the entire chain just yet. That's the reason I believe it isn't universally adopted at this point. Until the loose ends, where as you say, "all bet's are off". People will always look at other approaches that while not as strictly accurate, may be more relevant to their circumstances.

I'm just teasing Tim. As you know I'm a MBP user too and really just bought it because I don't touch type and the keyboard that lights up in the dark was helpful for many years working in dark places like airplanes and the bedroom with a sleeping wife Again I'm partly kidding, it's the OS for sure. Now Duck! Amir is watching!!!!!!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

At least the preservation of the signal is, it just can't be implemented in the entire chain just yet. That's the reason I believe it isn't universally adopted at this point. Until the loose ends, where as you say, "all bet's are off". People will always look at other approaches that while not as strictly accurate, may be more relevant to their circumstances.

I'm just teasing Tim. As you know I'm a MBP user too and really just bought it because I don't touch type and the keyboard that lights up in the dark was helpful for many years working in dark places like airplanes and the bedroom with a sleeping wife Again I'm partly kidding, it's the OS for sure. Now Duck! Amir is watching!!!!!!

What time is it there? Do you not sleep?! I have an excuse. I'm just back from a friend's, where I participated in the consumption of a good American whiskey. If you like such things, this is a hot tip. A $25 (us) whisky that tastes like $50: Buffalo Trace. Highly recommended.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

It's 3pm now

Yes I do like whiskey. Scotch, American, Japanese........I'll keep my eye out for Buffalo Trace. Thanks for the tip!

 

[mauidan]

Tim, I'm wondering why you and folks like FrantzM who've made over a thousand posts on this forum and love to comment on Performance, Price, Value, etc...don't list your systems in your profiles?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim, I'm wondering why you and folks like FrantzM who've made over a thousand posts on this forum and love to comment on Performance, Price, Value, etc...don't list your systems in your profiles?

Not much to wonder about, really. I listen to what is, basically, a simplified studio near field monitoring system:

MacBook Pro>USB>Trends UD.10>optical>AVi ADM 9.1 active speakers

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

There was a reviewer, gosh I wish I remembered his name, that once said something to the effect: "This is a really good $6000 speaker for someone that doesn't know what a good $1500 speaker sounds like."

Unfortunately this is not a problem that is confined to reviewers.

If it comes back to you, let me know. I want to read this guy's work.

Tim

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Present System:

Benchmark Pre HDR
PC Music
Macbook Pro
Denon 5000 Headphones
HifiMan 5 Headphones
Luxman P1U Headphone amp

For now... To move to

Entirely headphones these days .. Once move completed to new place .. Speakers, new amps, DAC .. Devialet is high on the List but it could be a return to Burmester or a similar move toward spectral or Bryston 28B monos .. Preamp is likely to be Burmester ... Cables?

I am getting incredible value from these although not inexpensive gears.. Headphones are not entirely satisfying compared to even a modest speaker but it will do for now ...Does that answer the question ?