Price, Value, Worth and COGS

[Phelonious Ponk]

Myles, did he ever answer your question?

I'm not Frantz, but here you go...

...at $1895 it would be pretty grossly over-priced for a chip and enough juice to bring its analog output up to line level, but the addition of an excellent pre amp and headphone amp bring it pretty close to worth the money.

HK 990 integrated. $2500. A little pricey for just 150 watts a channel, but you get a really good preamp thrown in. SOTA? By any measure that does not include personal opinion, it holds its own with anything in its range (power, not price) and out-performs MANY high-end amps at many multiples of its price. And yes, it doubles output as you drop ohms. Grunt. Lots of grunt. That's the technical term.

The Revel Salon. It begs the question "what is SOTA?" If it's anyone's opinion, I suppose all bets are off and there's really nothing left to discuss on discussion forums. If it is any kind of measurable, repeatable performance, these are not only hard to beat (when properly amplified) in the passive realm, they kick the soft, mushy, poetic butts of most statement speakers. Hell, they are more accurate 30 degrees off axis than a lot of SOTA flagship speakers are in the sweet spot. Got a listening room the size of a showcase club and want to create hyper-loudness? Buy two pair, and two of the HK 990s. They'll still be a bargain in the company of flagship "high-end" speakers.

And of course all of the above is doing it the hard way. If we could just get past our box and wire fetish and go active...

Tim

ON EDIT: What's Best? Plug a computer full of lossless files into the $24,500 system above, and what stands between you and "What's Best" will be someone else's opinion only. It certainly won't be facts or specs or anything quantifiable. And the truth is, the above system is over-engineered and the Salons are over-sized for most domestic listening rooms, so most of us could probably match its performance for a lot less, again, by any objective criteria. So what are we about here? What's best? Or what's expensive?

 

[Randall Smith]

I posted in another thread that I thought these Revel's were giant killers. Of course, peoples preferences will dictate their appreciation of these speakers, but they measure like a dream and are very detailed and neutral. To me, this is SOTA at a "reasonable" price point.

I may choose other electronics, but basically this is a great place to start.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I may choose other electronics

Of course. But if we're going to have a meaningful discussion of SOTA, or "What's Best," it necessarily has to be in some standardized, verifiable context. Otherwise, we'll need to change the name of the forum to "What Works For Me." Within the audible range (and well beyond) the electronics mentioned above are objectively beyond reproach. As I said before, they will stand with anything, they will out-pace much that is way beyond their price. As an answer to Myles' question to Frantz, "what piece of SOTA gear do you think justifies its price?" I think they work very well. Many will object to the idea that a <$2,000 DAC from a pro audio company and a $2500 integrated amp from a midfi mass market behemoth could possibly represent SOTA. I would ask them to defend that position on the facts.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

Never mind best. How about better? Will the Salon 2, Harman's flagship speaker, reach their full potential with a HK 990 or an ML 53, their parent company's flagship amplifier?

Perhaps Sean can show the measurements?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Never mind best. How about better? Will the Salon 2, Harman's flagship speaker, reach their full potential with a HK 990 or an ML 53, their parent company's flagship amplifier?

Perhaps Sean can show the measurements?

Perhaps. But if you'll recall, I said the HK 990 would hold its own with anything within its range (power, not price). The ML 53 delivers 500 watts to an 8 ohm load. The 990, 150 watts (into 8 ohms, 300 into 4). Not the same range at all. Will it make a difference? Given that the Salon's have a sensitivity somewhere in the mid 80s and are rated at a nominal 6 ohms, I suspect it will if you play them loud enough. Under most circumstances, I doubt there would be an audible, or meaningfully measurable, difference. The 990's 225 or so watts into 6 ohms should be more than enough, but if money was no object, I'd take the headroom.

Back to this discussion, though, few "best" high-end amps have the kind of power the ML 53 has. Many more of them, at prices even greater than the Mark Levinson, have power similar to the HK 990, or less, which brings us back to the larger point: SOTA in high-end audio is not really about what's best in any objective sense. It's more about what we're impressed with.

Tim

 

[mauidan]

IMO, a SOTA DAC should be able to playback hi rez files at their native resolution. I posted this message to Frantz when I joined the forum last year:

"I see you've tried some of the Hrx recordings from RR. If you want to enjoy them in their native resolution, I suggest you try a DAC other than the BenchMark DAC HDR, which, regardless of the original sample rate of the data, converts it to a datastream sampled at 110kHz."

If anyone is interested in the Revel Salons, there are a number of pairs available for sale on Agon at deep discounts.

 

[FrantzM]

Tim

We are often on the same page but not on this one. The Revel needs a lot to make it really sing.. that would be the knock on it from my point of view.
I am of the opinion that specs are useful but hardly sufficient to characterize the performance of some gears. With knowledge removed, A 200 watts ML amplifier will sound substantially better than any receiver on the market. At least that has been my experience. I won't go as far as claiming that the differences are not measurable but if one relies on the simple THD, Bandwidth and power rating these would not suffice to explain the clearly audible differences between these products .. Blind.. This can be load dependent, I wouldn't know not having performed any tests on the matter... Again the Revel Salon 2 is a SOTA rivaling any of the mega speakers in any area that matters (to me). My big gripe with it is the low sensitivity, it seems to me and there I have no way except my words to fully explain that phenomenon but it seems to me that more sensitive speakers reproduces the small dynamic gradients better than those that are less sensitive ... on the same powerful amplifier if one would like to hear what I'm talking about.

@Myles

I am hoping your question is asked in all good faith. I will not get in the part to justify the price.

A sampling by no means complete of designs I have had the pleasure (save one) to audition and to my ears SOTA:

Revel Salon 2 Loudspeaker
Antique Sound Hurricane Amplifier (Tube)
VTL Siegfied (Tube)
Joule Electa OTL amplifiers (The 220 Watt/ch version) (Tube)
CAT SL 1 Preamp (Tube)
Burmester 011 Preamp (SS) (personal Reference preamp)
Burmester 911 Amplifer (SS) (Personal Reference amp)
Magnepan MG 3.7
Magnepan MG 20.1
Weiss DAC-2
Playback Design DAC
Berkeley Alpha DAC
Wilson X-2
Rockport Altair
JL Audio Gotham
Evolution Acoustics MM3
Dunleavy IV, V and VI speakers
Martin Logan CLX speaker Requires subs to be full range SOTA but this speaker is truly special
Spectra DMA 360 amp (SS)
Scaena Speaker
Bryston 28 BB 1000 watt/ch mono amplifier
TacT Room Correcting Preamp
Hifiman HE-6 headphones
Soundlab ESL (the top models anyway)
Dynaudio Evidence Master speaker System
Spectral Top of the line Preamplifier
Lynx Audio AES-16 Card

Many on my list would not be labeled inexpensive by any stretch ... One of these is in the 150 K range . I hasten to say that between it and the Revel it would be a matter of preferences not anything that the Revel would take a back seat and in some areas the Revel would be a clear winner ... I may have forgotten quite a few I consider SOTA ..

 

[amirm]

If anyone is interested in the Revel Salons, there are a number of pairs available for sale on Agon at deep discounts.

I just did a search and there are only two on sale. In contrast there are 19 Wilson speakers on sale right now. Is that supposed to mean that Wilson users are less happy with their speakers and hence the higher number available for sale? I assume not.

As to pricing, it is hard to deduct trends from too small of a sample. The Revels are going for $14,000 relative to MSRP of $22k or about 63% retained value. I am not as familiar with Wilson pricing. I did a quick check and some are being sold at higher percentage and some are low. For example a Wilson Watch Center is being sold for $3,400 that retailed for $9,000. There is a Wilson watt puppy 5.1 speakers listing for $7,000 and it has MSRP of $17,000. There is a WP being sold for $24K relative to $27K but the guy says he bought it in January of this year.

Anyway, I am not sure this is a fruitful path to say one speaker is worse than the other. If there were 1000 Revels for sale at 10 cents on the dollar, the argument could stick but not with the implication alone.

 

[Randall Smith]

Revel seems not to release new versions of their speakers every two years or so. Also, a lot of Revel's dealers sell new product online, a practice Wilson wouldn't allow.

 

[JasonI]

There is clearly a point after which, price/performance has no value. I heard the IMF guy who is accused of attacking the hotel maid is staying at a townhouse that costs $50,000/month. Yes, I said per month! A cool $600K/year. Should this person have a wish for audio equipment, would $20K or $50K really matter? Think of whether you would spend your monthly mortgage payment on audio equipment.

So I don't see the point of constantly worrying about why something is so expensive. For a class of customers, there is no such thing in the numbers we are talking about.

Obviously I haven't made it too far into this thread but I recently read an NYT article briefly touching on the new aristocracy in which the woman with tens of millions of dollars enviously described the hardships of keeping up with those families worth hundreds of millions. They could barely afford the boat they recently purchased and it hardly belonged at the yacht club those better off families frequented. The irony of this situation was not lost on her.

 

[mauidan]

I just did a search and there are only two on sale. In contrast there are 19 Wilson speakers on sale right now. Is that supposed to mean that Wilson users are less happy with their speakers and hence the higher number available for sale? I assume not.

As to pricing, it is hard to deduct trends from too small of a sample. The Revels are going for $14,000 relative to MSRP of $22k or about 63% retained value. I am not as familiar with Wilson pricing. I did a quick check and some are being sold at higher percentage and some are low. For example a Wilson Watch Center is being sold for $3,400 that retailed for $9,000. There is a Wilson watt puppy 5.1 speakers listing for $7,000 and it has MSRP of $17,000. There is a WP being sold for $24K relative to $27K but the guy says he bought it in January of this year.

Anyway, I am not sure this is a fruitful path to say one speaker is worse than the other. If there were 1000 Revels for sale at 10 cents on the dollar, the argument could stick but not with the implication alone.

I count five pairs of used Salon 2s (lowest price- $11750,) for sale here

http://cgis.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_fs.pl?searchstring=revel&B1=go

I'm not trying to make any implication about the Revels.

Since it's being praised as a SOTA benchmark, I was just alerting potential buyers to a bargain.

I don't own or sell the Revels, so I don't have any dog in this fight.

 

[Bruce B]

I just did a search and there are only two on sale. In contrast there are 19 Wilson speakers on sale right now. Is that supposed to mean that Wilson users are less happy with their speakers and hence the higher number available for sale? I assume not.

To be fair Amir there are over 20 Revel speakers for sale.

 

[KeithR]

Frantz- one of the takeaways of the THE Show in Newport Beach is that I'm really hearing the ill effects of low-efficiency speakers---despite tons of power.

They just don't have the immediacy or palpability of a higher efficiency speaker. I think the days of 86dbs into 4 ohms is limited at best for SOTA.

Sorry---this is way OT for this thread though.

 

[Randall Smith]

To be fair Amir there are over 20 Revel speakers for sale.

well, a company that has been in business for many years, especially very popular brands, will have more than a few speakers for sale on the used market. Three brands that do not have much for sale are Rockport, Magico, and Vivid Audio. I feel that these three brands are to best available right now.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Tim

We are often on the same page but not on this one. The Revel needs a lot to make it really sing.. that would be the knock on it from my point of view.
I am of the opinion that specs are useful but hardly sufficient to characterize the performance of some gears. With knowledge removed, A 200 watts ML amplifier will sound substantially better than any receiver on the market. At least that has been my experience. I won't go as far as claiming that the differences are not measurable but if one relies on the simple THD, Bandwidth and power rating these would not suffice to explain the clearly audible differences between these products .. Blind.. This can be load dependent, I wouldn't know not having performed any tests on the matter... Again the Revel Salon 2 is a SOTA rivaling any of the mega speakers in any area that matters (to me). My big gripe with it is the low sensitivity, it seems to me and there I have no way except my words to fully explain that phenomenon but it seems to me that more sensitive speakers reproduces the small dynamic gradients better than those that are less sensitive ... on the same powerful amplifier if one would like to hear what I'm talking about.

@Myles

I am hoping your question is asked in all good faith. I will not get in the part to justify the price.

A sampling by no means complete of designs I have had the pleasure (save one) to audition and to my ears SOTA:

Revel Salon 2 Loudspeaker
Antique Sound Hurricane Amplifier (Tube)
VTL Siegfied (Tube)
Joule Electa OTL amplifiers (The 220 Watt/ch version) (Tube)
CAT SL 1 Preamp (Tube)
Burmester 001 Preamp (SS) (personal Reference preamp)
Burmester 911 Amplifer (SS) (Personal Reference amp)
Magnepan MG 3.7
Magnepan MG 20.1
Weiss DAC-2
Playback Design DAC
Berkeley Alpha DAC
Wilson X-2
Rockport Altair
JL Audio Gotham
Evolution Acoustics MM3
Dunleavy IV, V and VI speakers
Martin Logan CLX speaker Requires subs to be full range SOTA but this speaker is truly special
Spectra DMA 360 amp (SS)
Scaena Speaker
Bryston 28 BB 1000 watt/ch mono amplifier
TacT Room Correcting Preamp
Hifiman HE-6 headphones
Soundlab ESL (the top models anyway)
Dynaudio Evidence Master speaker System
Spectral Top of the line Preamplifier
Lynx Audio AES-16 Card

Many on my list w ouldnot be labeled inexpensive by any stretch ... One of these is in the 150 K range . I hasten to say that between it and the Revel it would be a matter of preferences not anything that the Revel would take a back seat and in some areas the Revel would be a clear winner ... I may have forgotten quite a few I consider SOTA ..

OK, that's a start then. There are some designs that you feel are worth the price. Now what makes threse products as a whole worth the price eg. why a CAT preamp is worth its price say compared to say a cj GAT preamp?

 

[MylesBAstor]

I just did a search and there are only two on sale. In contrast there are 19 Wilson speakers on sale right now. Is that supposed to mean that Wilson users are less happy with their speakers and hence the higher number available for sale? I assume not.

As to pricing, it is hard to deduct trends from too small of a sample. The Revels are going for $14,000 relative to MSRP of $22k or about 63% retained value. I am not as familiar with Wilson pricing. I did a quick check and some are being sold at higher percentage and some are low. For example a Wilson Watch Center is being sold for $3,400 that retailed for $9,000. There is a Wilson watt puppy 5.1 speakers listing for $7,000 and it has MSRP of $17,000. There is a WP being sold for $24K relative to $27K but the guy says he bought it in January of this year.

Anyway, I am not sure this is a fruitful path to say one speaker is worse than the other. If there were 1000 Revels for sale at 10 cents on the dollar, the argument could stick but not with the implication alone.

To be fair Amir, the Wilson 5.1 is what 10 or more years old and four generations removed from the current model.

 

[Bruce B]

well, a company that has been in business for many years, especially very popular brands, will have more than a few speakers for sale on the used market. Three brands that do not have much for sale are Rockport, Magico, and Vivid Audio. I feel that these three brands are to best available right now.

I'd also have to include Evolution Acoustics as well.

I think I've only seen 2 or 3 pair on A'gon the past year or so. There's only 1 pair on there now.

 

[microstrip]

I just did a search and there are only two on sale. In contrast there are 19 Wilson speakers on sale right now. Is that supposed to mean that Wilson users are less happy with their speakers and hence the higher number available for sale? I assume not.

As to pricing, it is hard to deduct trends from too small of a sample. The Revels are going for $14,000 relative to MSRP of $22k or about 63% retained value. I am not as familiar with Wilson pricing. I did a quick check and some are being sold at higher percentage and some are low. For example a Wilson Watch Center is being sold for $3,400 that retailed for $9,000. There is a Wilson watt puppy 5.1 speakers listing for $7,000 and it has MSRP of $17,000. There is a WP being sold for $24K relative to $27K but the guy says he bought it in January of this year.

Anyway, I am not sure this is a fruitful path to say one speaker is worse than the other. If there were 1000 Revels for sale at 10 cents on the dollar, the argument could stick but not with the implication alone.

Amir,

Unhappily, IMHO the analysis you are doing of single items at Audiogon is completely misleading. First, analysis can not be done on asked prices, but on prices of effective items sold. Second, unless you have a good statistics it is meaningless. Third you were mixing current speakers with some 16 years old speaker.

You you want to have an idea you can look at Audiogon bluebook - for the Revel they list Revel Ultima2 Salon2 : Used Prices 14 speakers effectively sold, New 22000.0 14250.00 High price, $11120.00 Last, $9600.00 Low, average Used $12480.00,
AFAIK Audiogon bluebook lists only effective sales - as they charge a commission they know the prices.

Both current Wilson speakers, the Sasha and Sophia 3 are too new to show significant used sales. But if you look at the sales of the previous models during their lifetime, they show similar depreciation.


And as you say, IMHO these numbers have no direct connection with user satisfaction.

 

[JackD201]

I really like Frantz' list. I haven't heard all of them but those I have are certainly on the cutting edge performance wise.

 

[microstrip]

I really like Frantz' list. I haven't heard all of them but those I have are certainly on the cutting edge performance wise.

It is difficult not to like it. But is is just a personal preference list with high quality gear.
Any of us has a similar one with different equipment.

Anyway I was very happy so see the big Soundlab's on this list - I should not be ashamed anymore of having speakers with some of most horrible measurements in the world! But I can not understand how we can compare it with the Revel.