Price, Value, Worth and COGS

[Old Listener]

If this "high priced" gear wasn't selling, it would have disappeared quickly.

I don't feel that the market needs to be just really expensive gear or just affordable gear.

A few companies like Audioengine seem to be prospering making very affordable products but they are mostly operating outside the high-end audio industry.

OTOH, how many pieces do you think they're selling. For instance, cj's ART is limited to 100 pairs. That's less than one/country world wide

In an interview on the HiFi-unlimited blog on MARCH 31, 2011, David Williamson of Linn produced 5 's Sondek LP12 turntablea month 11 years ago and produces 5 or 6 units a week now. He also said "Our biggest market for the Linn LP12 turn tables are Japan and China! Last month, we shipped a batch of 40 units of LP12s to China."

Williamson also talked about the popularity of the old style ribbed plinth (which they manufacture for the Japanese market) with collectors. Collectors buying new turntables? Does this have anything to do with a search for The Absolute Sound?

Another example is the people who clamor for a magazine dealing with affordable equipment.... There were quite a few that tried and failed along the way.

I'm not sure that the disappearance of magazines oriented to affordable gear proves much. Lots of magazines have come and gone including some aimed at the top of the market. (Fi?)

That's because possibly the people who buy this equipment won't support the magazine or don't care.

Most people who buy affordable gear may not retain the same level of interest after they finish their purchases. However, very few will retain an interest if the magazines are not relevant to their situation.

Bill

 

[DaveyF]

This thread is very interesting. It seems that on the one hand we have several members who are concerned about the ever increasing pricing of high-end gear and on the other hand we have members who also happen to be reviewers who seem to want to justify these price gains.

A small high end dealer just opened up a display in one of the upper end furniture shops located near me. This shop is in the 'high rent' district. In the shop I picked up a flyer from the dealer that stated the following verbiage: "Hamburgers vs Chateaubriand.....There is no comparison between a custom designed xxxxx Music system and the thin, uninvolving sound of common stereos"

In the showroom were a pair of $44K speakers connected to a $16K amp and so on.
Clearly, the pricing of the pieces placed for the showroom was based on what the local audience could apparently afford, in the eyes of this particular dealer. This is what I think most manufacturers and dealers are gaugeing.

Whether or not this pricing policy is valid, is only really known to the dealer and manufacturer based on their success with the business plan. From what i have seen, it would certainly seem logical that with so many dealers and manufacturers adopting this model that it must be working somewhere.

I think some of the posters here are forgetting that many of the products under discussion are really not meant for local US consumption, instead they are designed for a market wherein the average consumer most certainly earns numerous times more than the average US consumer.

To diverge a little,IMHO, the designers and manufacturers of cartridges and cabling are far more suspect in their pricing strategy than manufacturers of amps or speakers. Can one really believe that a top of the line Clearaudio cartridge or Koetsu cartridge has enough parts or labor or R&D to justify their pricing
OTOH, a speaker manufacturer like B&W has a lot of R&D to pay for and far more in cost regarding their distribution/labor and parts in their product. How can one compare a $10K cartridge and a $15K B&W 802D as an example......IMO, this is where the hocus pocus comes into the hobby.

 

[microstrip]

(...)
To diverge a little,IMHO, the designers and manufacturers of cartridges and cabling are far more suspect in their pricing strategy than manufacturers of amps or speakers. Can one really believe that a top of the line Clearaudio cartridge or Koetsu cartridge has enough parts or labor or R&D to justify their pricing
OTOH, a speaker manufacturer like B&W has a lot of R&D to pay for and far more in cost regarding their distribution/labor and parts in their product. How can one compare a $10K cartridge and a $15K B&W 802D as an example......IMO, this is where the hocus pocus comes into the hobby.

Dave,

You are are forgetting the aim of high end sound reproduction - listening pleasure, and focusing only it the immediate visual perceived value of equipment. The Koetsu (or other brands) of cartridges have some reproducing characteristics that it seems impossible to produce at a lower cost - or at least no one can achieve it. Competition market rules should limit the excessive profit on a product - if you are making too much money on something someone will make an equivalent cheaper.

The main issue should be - is some piece of equipment costing 10000 significantly better than a 5000 one? IMHO, the answer is, most of the time, yes. The big isseu is how to make a 10000 sound costing 5000.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

One thing of which I am certain is that this trend won't stop. Luxuryitems will continue to sell. High ENd Audio has become that. Someone in this thread posted the more succesfull manufacturers are intuitive marketers. I agree.
I can understand the reaction from manufacutrers. Many audiophiles have shown they can bear the price increase. IOW a very elastic market. There is an upper limit for audiophiles, even the well heeled ones. A good marketer will always have a product priced out of the average audiophile reach to keep the dream alive. The audiophile will usually construct all by himself the product as superior, since evaluations are for the most part conducted in ways where biases dominate.

The role of the reviewer (some, not all) in the process is to me clear. The mystique of High End Audio must be maintained, thus the interesting justifications we have seen in this thread (Cost have increased, not threefold maybe 50% so hey! why not triple the price anyway, it has been shown to work). Any attempt to "reduce" High End Audio to objectivity will be met with staunch defense. The interests vested are too great.

The unfortunate part of this equation is the pressure on the other manufacturer that produce fairly priced gear and the slow but ineluctable fossilization of the hobby many of us hold dear. The number of audiophiles is not increasing . The number of people buying expensive audio jewelry (and maybe never turning it on) may have increased though ...

 

[Old Listener]

One thing of which I am certain is that this trend won't stop. Luxuryitems will continue to sell. High ENd Audio has become that.

I think the trend will run out of customers in the US. For a few years, Asian customers will continue to view US gear as having the greatest cachet. However, Asian manufacturers have been getting better and better and moving up market. Eventually, Asian customers will view products from Asia as having more cachet than products from the poor, stagnant USA.

The role of the reviewer (some, not all) in the process is to me clear. The mystique of High End Audio must be maintained, thus the interesting justifications we have seen in this thread (Cost have increased, not threefold maybe 50% so hey! why not triple the price anyway, it has been shown to work). Any attempt to "reduce" High End Audio to objectivity will be met with staunch defense. The interests vested are too great.

High-end manufacturers, reviewers and customers have sorted themselves out. Those who are not satisfied with static functionality, steadily increasing prices, low volume and lack of objective criteria for evaluating the effectiveness of products have mostly gone elsewhere.

You hardly ever see a review of a product that provides unusual value without a caveat that it isn't really as good as the high-priced stuff. I found Alan Sircom's statement in the first post in this thread to be a refreshing exception:

"I know you didn't want to bring digital into the equation, but something like a HRT Streamer II+ offers excellent performance without breaching the $500 barrier. How good? Use it with a powered USB hub and it is on a par with anything digital."

The unfortunate part of this equation is the pressure on the other manufacturer that produce fairly priced gear and the slow but ineluctable fossilization of the hobby many of us hold dear. The number of audiophiles is not increasing . The number of people buying expensive audio jewelry (and maybe never turning it on) may have increased though ...

I saw a quote by someone at Magnaplanar that some of their dealers asked them to price the new 3.7 model at $ 10,000 rather than $ 4000. I'd like a list of those dealers so that I can avoid them.

Fossilization implies that the hobby is dying or dead. I think that might be true in the US for high-end audio. Baby boomers grew up wanting a great stereo and when they became adults with some discretionary income, they could afford it. A fraction of them remain active audiophiles after getting a system with good sound. Having a great stereo won't be an aspiration for very many post-boomers.

If I were Miles, I'd be brushing up on my Chinese and Japanese because that will be the market for positive feedback type articles.

Bill

 

[microstrip]

Hi

One thing of which I am certain is that this trend won't stop. Luxuryitems will continue to sell. High ENd Audio has become that. Someone in this thread posted the more succesfull manufacturers are intuitive marketers. I agree.

Surely. Luxury (in the good sense of the word, not the pejorative) is a significant part of high end audio. High-end-audio did not become only that, as there is much more than this aspect.

I can understand the reaction from manufacturers. Many audiophiles have shown they can bear the price increase. IOW a very elastic market. There is an upper limit for audiophiles, even the well heeled ones. A good marketer will always have a product priced out of the average audiophile reach to keep the dream alive.

IMHO the manufacturers must have top of the range products with performance in level with the current to the state of the art because an open and wide marketing existing nowadays, mainly because of the net. This allows us to read instantaneously opinions about their state of the art products in a comparative way, for example in large high-end shows. Unhappily these products are expensive; happily some people can buy them and finance the industry who wants to develop them.

The audiophile will usually construct all by himself the product as superior, since evaluations are for the most part conducted in ways where biases dominate.

This characteristic of DIY was known since the 50’s. I do not see any relation to high-end, other then seeing tens of DIY projects exactly with the shape of a Wilson Watt that the owner says sounds ten times better.

The role of the reviewer (some, not all) in the process is to me clear. The mystique of High End Audio must be maintained, thus the interesting justifications we have seen in this thread (Cost have increased, not threefold maybe 50% so hey! why not triple the price anyway, it has been shown to work). Any attempt to "reduce" High End Audio to objectivity will be met with staunch defense. The interests vested are too great.

What do you call “reduce” high end audio to objectivity? Stating that prices above a certain level are not allowed? Or applying “Salon 2 “ type grading to every item?

The unfortunate part of this equation is the pressure on the other manufacturer that produce fairly priced gear and the slow but ineluctable fossilization of the hobby many of us hold dear. The number of audiophiles is not increasing . The number of people buying expensive audio jewelry (and maybe never turning it on) may have increased though ...

If you have been following the hobby for the last twenty years, the hobby is not in fossilization. I think it is holding pretty well, considering the evolution of technological leisure occupations. For users, High End Audio is leisure, and many other concurrent and interesting activities had spread. Five years ago, many anticipated that home theater would kill high-end audio, we see that it is not true.
BTW, are you still dreaming of the good old says of the first decade of high end audio? The frisson of receiving the small plastic bag with the The Absolute Sound? Or reading “Sell the Mercedes”? Time does not go back …

 

[MylesBAstor]

This thread is very interesting. It seems that on the one hand we have several members who are concerned about the ever increasing pricing of high-end gear and on the other hand we have members who also happen to be reviewers who seem to want to justify these price gains.

A small high end dealer just opened up a display in one of the upper end furniture shops located near me. This shop is in the 'high rent' district. In the shop I picked up a flyer from the dealer that stated the following verbiage: "Hamburgers vs Chateaubriand.....There is no comparison between a custom designed xxxxx Music system and the thin, uninvolving sound of common stereos"

In the showroom were a pair of $44K speakers connected to a $16K amp and so on.
Clearly, the pricing of the pieces placed for the showroom was based on what the local audience could apparently afford, in the eyes of this particular dealer. This is what I think most manufacturers and dealers are gaugeing.

Whether or not this pricing policy is valid, is only really known to the dealer and manufacturer based on their success with the business plan. From what i have seen, it would certainly seem logical that with so many dealers and manufacturers adopting this model that it must be working somewhere.

I think some of the posters here are forgetting that many of the products under discussion are really not meant for local US consumption, instead they are designed for a market wherein the average consumer most certainly earns numerous times more than the average US consumer.

To diverge a little,IMHO, the designers and manufacturers of cartridges and cabling are far more suspect in their pricing strategy than manufacturers of amps or speakers. Can one really believe that a top of the line Clearaudio cartridge or Koetsu cartridge has enough parts or labor or R&D to justify their pricing
OTOH, a speaker manufacturer like B&W has a lot of R&D to pay for and far more in cost regarding their distribution/labor and parts in their product. How can one compare a $10K cartridge and a $15K B&W 802D as an example......IMO, this is where the hocus pocus comes into the hobby.

Davey:

I'm not justifying anything; I'm simply trying to point out the various costs involved in designing and constructing gear.

For instance, has anyone ever estimated the overhead cost to a tube manufacturer of maintaining a complete inventory of tubes for owners of their gear for 10 or more years? You know, most equipment is no longer built on a dining room table.

 

[MylesBAstor]

If I were Miles, I'd be brushing up on my Chinese and Japanese because that will be the market for positive feedback type articles.

Bill

If I were you Bill, I'd learn to spell MY name correctly.

Second, perhaps you should read the PFO website a lot more carefully before shooting from the hip. You'd find a hell of a lot more on there than just reviews of high priced equipment. A hell of a lot more. Do a search and see what some of our writers are doing including Dave Clark, a schoolteacher, who has gotten several high-end manufacturers to donate gear to build (and also build) an audio system (and equipment).

 

[Old Listener]

If I were you Bill, I'd learn to spell MY name correctly.

I didn't check the spelling, sorry.

Second, perhaps you should read the PFO website a lot more carefully before shooting from the hip. You'd find a hell of a lot more on there than just reviews of high priced equipment.

You seem quite touchy. Nothing in my post was intended as a comment on the quality of your magazine. My post was about the center of gravity of the high-end audio hobby. I have read material on the PFO site and have not expressed any opinion about that site. I think you were the one shooting from the LIP.

As to any of your writers having just folks credentials, that is not relevant to anything I said.

Bill

 

[MylesBAstor]

I didn't check the spelling, sorry.



You seem quite touchy. Nothing in my post was intended as a comment on the quality of your magazine. My post was about the center of gravity of the high-end audio hobby. I have read material on the PFO site and have not expressed any opinion about that site. I think you were the one shooting from the LIP.

As to any of your writers having just folks credentials, that is not relevant to anything I said.

Bill

If I were Miles, I'd be brushing up on my Chinese and Japanese because that will be the market for positive feedback type articles.

Bill

Again, I don't think that some people really read what they write and how it will be intepreted. AFAIK, there's no other way to interpret your statement Bill other than all that PFO covers is ultra-priced gear.

And as a matter of fact, I'm not sure how PFO even came up since it's completely OT and non-germane to the topic under discussion.

 

[Old Listener]

Again, I don't think that some people really read what they write and how it will be intepreted. AFAIK, there's no other way to interpret your statement Bill other than all that PFO covers is ultra-priced gear.

I used PFO as an example of a high-end audio magazine. I could have used Stereophile or TAS. Had that thought occurred to you? The point of the sentence I wrote should have been clear in the context of the previous paragraph.

Bill

 

[FrantzM]

'strip

This characteristic of DIY was known since the 50’s. I do not see any relation to high-end, other then seeing tens of DIY projects exactly with the shape of a Wilson Watt that the owner says sounds ten times better.

You got me wrong there. I wasn't talking about DIY. Rather about the power of suggestion. Some Audiophiles would like think they are immune to it ....

I have been following the Audiophiles egment for a number of years and I am not certain we are making more adherent ... If we were to ask the median age on this forum.. It is sure to be closer to 50 than 30... And most of us have been at it for several years .. likely several decades... We are not growing in number. I can venture we don''t have 10 under 30 years mebers out of the 1000 + in the WBF .. Growth? The INternet has made it easier to aggregate and discuss about our so fairly priced High EndAudio products at infinitum .. It is not unfortunately bringing new customers .. That could be one reason why prices are increasing among others: Relatively price-insensitive market and fewer customers , only way to keep revenues up is to increase price... It is working so far for many manufacturers ...

I find interesting that some don't see the reproduction of music as a purely technical endeavor: If it can be reproduced it can be measured. That doesn't mean it is always measured. For something to happen consitently it must be measurable. If it is measurable thus there must be a set of measurable paramters that would allow one to assess the worth of a given component.. Not aesy but worthwhile IMO.

 

[JackD201]

Personally, I don't really see what the hoopla is about. Wilson has its X-2 and it's Sophia. Rockport has its Arrakis and it's Mira. Von Schweikert has it's VR-11 and it's VR-4 SR and de-prettied recession models the VR-33 and 35. Sonus Faber has its speaker of the same name and it's Cremona. B&W has it's Nautilus and 802D. Evolution has it's MM7 and it's MM2. Magico has it's Ultimate and it's V2. Buying price thresholds change in time and form region to region based on the local economies. My gut feel is the general average loudspeaker threshold anywhere outside BRIC is between $7,000 and $10,000. A few short years ago it was between $20,000 and $25,000. Not coincidentally this is where the sweet spots of the lines are in terms of value based on cost performance ratio. Behind the scenes we're seeing manufacturers pour in a lot of effort in getting to get these speakers sounding at their best simply because these are the speakers they have a chance of selling a lot of......the lower models I mentioned above being but few examples. Just as a Sophia 3 would give a Watt Puppy 7 fits, so does the VR-4 SR to the VR-5 SE and the 802D the 801 of the same era. So it isn't like affordable high quality is being withheld. I think it's actually trickling down quite well.

Manufacturers face a conundrum. If they don't have a statement piece, they may not be considered "players". Unfortunately, it also means that the core market will not have the satisfaction of knowing that they don't have the "top of the line". Just like watches, you know you've got a beautiful Day/Date but that rich b@sterd, to borrow from Quentin, has got the Grand Complication. Never mind that they tell time just as well. Same thing with automobiles, we've got M Car, AMG, RS, SVT, SRT versions of basic platforms AS WELL AS the super car exotic challengers like the SLS, Viper, GT40, R8 Spyder. Even with the super car manufacturers there is always "The One", The Reventon, Veyron, Enzo, etc. This is simply the ups and downs of having Halo products. A lot of the alienation I believe stems from knowing that what's best might be out of one's reach. Yet, we have to be rational and think in terms of what's best for our current situations. With the room I have I know I can't accommodate the range topper so I'm very, very ok with having the half pint sibling.

The unfortunate side effect is that there are too many pretenders. I won't name names but all of us have heard some of them first hand. I don't think this is even a problem since we have our personal BS filters to protect us. Yes new companies will pop up trying to get attention by putting insane sticker prices. I still think they should be covered. Why? On one hand they could serve as abject examples of what not to do and on the other hand some of these really may have merits that can trickle down.

Just my 2 centavos

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Excellent post, Jack. But many audio rationalists, formerly known as objectivists, don't object to the TOTL stuff because it is out of reach; it's not just petty jealousy. There are many things out of my reach that I admire. Salma Hayek comes to mind, yet I don't insist she is not really all that beautiful because I can't have her! We object because too often, even among the most famous high-end manufacturers, these flagship products, from a rationalist's POV, are not what's best, they are simply what's expensive (or humungous). And the trickle-down, while appreciated, doesn't really help. I've heard the Sophias, for example, and looked into them fairly extensively. They are very good speakers that can be bettered, by every objective criteria, at a fraction of their price. But the stuff that betters them will never quite make it into the high-end club, because high-end audio, while it may be about different things to different people, isn't really about what's best. And that is the jist of the anti high end argument. It's not about what we can't afford. It's about why we are fine with the fact that we cannot afford it.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

Humongous is the operative word Tim. For the most part, as far as loudspeakers go, it really is about size and the scale it brings to the table. With watches it's how many more small parts you can cram in. With cars it's about displacement or boost. With loudspeakers it's that pesky relative scale we talked about in another thread. They are so large not only are they out of the price range for the speakers, you'll need the dough for a house that can accommodate them first! This wasn't the case 30 years ago. Many statement speakers dwarf Altec Voice of the Theaters. Again for most manufacturers producing these stereo-liths ( ) it's about making that statement that "if my competitor can do it so can I". That's why they're called statements. Does it make me angry? No. Why should it? For as long as they make something that fits best in my own house, I'm golden. As far as I'm concerned they weren't made for me. It doesn't mean I can go and bash the people they were made for. Heck I'm grateful to the people they were made for. If they didn't exist I wouldn't have the speakers that are making me very happy now because what I have is essentially a statement speaker cut almost exactly in half and at half the price. Then my speakers gave birth to another model sans the super tweeter and powered sub with essentially the same drivers and crossover parts and a simpler cabinet for a THIRD of the price almost identical from 12kHz to 45Hz where they're flat as boards ( no +/- dB action compared to the statement model). What's not to like about the statement loudspeakers then? I say let the rich guys pay for the R&D just make sure we normal folks get the technological benefits trickled down. That's all I'm saying.

 

[FrantzM]

Excellent post, Jack. But many audio rationalists, formerly known as objectivists, don't object to the TOTL stuff because it is out of reach; it's not just petty jealousy. There are many things out of my reach that I admire. Salma Hayek comes to mind, yet I don't insist she is not really all that beautiful because I can't have her! We object because too often, even among the most famous high-end manufacturers, these flagship products, from a rationalist's POV, are not what's best, they are simply what's expensive (or humungous). And the trickle-down, while appreciated, doesn't really help. I've heard the Sophias, for example, and looked into them fairly extensively. They are very good speakers that can be bettered, by every objective criteria, at a fraction of their price. But the stuff that betters them will never quite make it into the high-end club, because high-end audio, while it may be about different things to different people, isn't really about what's best. And that is the jist of the anti high end argument. It's not about what we can't afford. It's about why we are fine with the fact that we cannot afford it.

Tim

Hi

I am not sure I can't add much more to this post. Tim has it right.. I will add my 2 cents. It is the fact that endemic to this luxury sentiment is the concept that for something to be good it must be priced at a certain level. The MG 3.7 example comes to mind ... It will rarely if ever be compared to for example a Wilson Sophia ... A superb speaker such as the Revel Salon 2 will never figure in discussions of World Best speakers ... A superlative amp such as the Antique Sound Lab Hurricanes is never mentioned in great amplifiers debate and the list could go on ... Now with DACs which are essentially number crunching items , aka computers we are allowing ourselves to find $70,000 as the new baseline ... I don't need to remind anyone of what is happening with computers, where today's iPhone is likely more powerful than the Cray 1 of yore ... We know our PCs obsolete as soon as we get it out of the store's doors.. Of course because of this DAC price it has to be superior to the lowly (???? )Playback Design "thing" which I think cost only (?!) U$15K ... That is the problem not that a person can't afford a given gear.
It may not come out right but the baseline for discussions has been replaced not by the performance but by the price and that is wrong... We have now reached a point where what we think of a gear is determine by its price ... How many times have we seen this expression: ' for the price" ?? Too low a price and a gear will not register on our audiophile radar. Meanwhile some of us do try, very hard to justify the increase with material cost analysis ...


P.S. JackD .. Love the pun Stereo-lith .. Hilarious

 

[JackD201]

I hate the "it must be better just because it costs more mentality" as much as anybody else. If we're looking for the top offenders lets go skewer the dudes wearing $300 cotton t-shirts because it's got some guys name on it Nah, that wasn't nice.

Let's get to the root of it then. This way of thinking is borne from shall I say, lack of due diligence. Let's say I was 30, single and on a date. I know nothing about wine but PRETEND to. I go straight at the prices and pick one out that will fit my budget but not make me look cheap right? Never mind the fact that some of the cheaper ones might actually be much better. What I should have done was come clean and ask for a recommendation from the waiter with the look on myself that says "I don't wanna wash the dishes tonight!". Alternatively, I just could've taught myself some wine basics by going to a few wine tastings to give myself an idea of what at least some varietals generally taste like. I'm not out to be an expert, I just don't want to be ignorant. Actually I just want the night to go someplace nice!

Then something funny happens. I find I actually like wine and decide to learn more about it. I learn to tell the difference between a wine that is bad and a wine that's gone bad, etcetera, etcetera. The more I learn suddenly the less I'm looking at the prices. More expensive doesn't mean better anymore. I simply don't need it as a crutch anymore. The next thing you know, friends start asking me for recommendations because they know I'm into it at least more than they are just as I do from others who are also into it. I might have even read some reviews and joined a forum. Hehehehe.

Okay. I'm being humorous because I think this thread needs a bit of lightening up. We're all passionate about this hobby and that's why we're here. We all do tend to get a little bit too passionate at times. I am certainly no saint in this regards but REALLY why is that the issue is so blown out of proportion compared to any other hobby? There are carps that cost as much as these statement products. Yes carps. FISH! What we IMHO seem to forget too easily is that it is a hobby and as such the process is just as important as the outcome, dare I say, even more so.

 

[FrantzM]

JackD201

Wise words ...

 

[mep]

I think this thread has at least 3 arguments (or points of view) that are being weaved together and there are many good points being made by all. The main argument seems to be about the cost of high-end gear and is the retail price really justified in terms of the actual cost of bringing the product to market. And the first cousin to this argument is the ever-increasing cost of statement pieces that keeps moving the mountain to ever higher plateaus. A third point of view keeps referring to reviewers who don’t seem to take any gear that doesn’t cost at least $XX seriously because, well, it just can’t be that good. A fourth argument running through the thread is that much of the cheaper gear available sounds just as good if not better than the higher-priced spread.

There is definitely status associated with this hobby. Certain pieces and brands demand/command respect among fellow audiophiles. If you tell someone that you just bought the latest ARC REF preamp/power amp-instant status. Tell someone you just bought a NAD preamp/power amp, you could almost feel the pity during the yawn. I just sold my Jadis Defy 7 MKII which carried a certain amount of status in the audiophile world (it also carried a whole lot of pain-in-the-ass with it as well). Now I’m using a Phase Linear 400 Series 2 which has zero status. Let the pity party begin.

The real truth at all levels of this hobby is that outside of your room, your speakers more than any other component are going to have the greatest impact on the quality of your sound. By far, the biggest bang for your buck in improving the sound of your system will come from buying a great set of speakers. Changing preamps and power amps can change the sound of your system to some degree, but nowhere near the degree of changing your speakers.

There are only so many ways of skinning the cat when it comes to preamplifiers and amplifiers reproducing the audio frequency bandwidth. One could argue that old preamplifiers had far more complex circuits than their modern descendents because of all the features that old preamps had. All of that functionality has been stripped out and you now pay far more for far less. As a general rule, we do have better passive components today to build the circuits with and they do impact the sound quality. They just don’t impact it to the same degree of changing out your speakers for something better.

I think the least bang for your buck (or the worst beating you can take for your bucks) is speaker wire and interconnects. You can spend absolutely crazy money on wires and you can convince yourself they have lifted more veils than a middle-eastern gigolo, but the reality is that they just can’t change the sound of your system in a profound way unless they are doing something wacky by design. You only have 3 electrical parameters to play with plus shielding and audio cables are really simple to design and cheap to build until Rube Goldberg creeps in and adds complexity where none is needed. Cables are a very small spice in the recipe of your stereo system. They can affect the flavor of your stereo, but they can’t change a hamburger into a NY Strip.

One thing that hasn’t changed for me is that 15 ips 2 track tapes played back through my Ampex 350s has the breath of life that eludes other sources no matter how good they sound on their own. I wished I owned a gazillion master tapes.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I think this thread has at least 3 arguments (or points of view) that are being weaved together and there are many good points being made by all. The main argument seems to be about the cost of high-end gear and is the retail price really justified in terms of the actual cost of bringing the product to market. And the first cousin to this argument is the ever-increasing cost of statement pieces that keeps moving the mountain to ever higher plateaus. A third point of view keeps referring to reviewers who don’t seem to take any gear that doesn’t cost at least $XX seriously because, well, it just can’t be that good. A fourth argument running through the thread is that much of the cheaper gear available sounds just as good if not better than the higher-priced spread.

There is definitely status associated with this hobby. Certain pieces and brands demand/command respect among fellow audiophiles. If you tell someone that you just bought the latest ARC REF preamp/power amp-instant status. Tell someone you just bought a NAD preamp/power amp, you could almost feel the pity during the yawn. I just sold my Jadis Defy 7 MKII which carried a certain amount of status in the audiophile world (it also carried a whole lot of pain-in-the-ass with it as well). Now I’m using a Phase Linear 400 Series 2 which has zero status. Let the pity party begin.

The real truth at all levels of this hobby is that outside of your room, your speakers more than any other component are going to have the greatest impact on the quality of your sound. By far, the biggest bang for your buck in improving the sound of your system will come from buying a great set of speakers. Changing preamps and power amps can change the sound of your system to some degree, but nowhere near the degree of changing your speakers.

There are only so many ways of skinning the cat when it comes to preamplifiers and amplifiers reproducing the audio frequency bandwidth. One could argue that old preamplifiers had far more complex circuits than their modern descendents because of all the features that old preamps had. All of that functionality has been stripped out and you now pay far more for far less. As a general rule, we do have better passive components today to build the circuits with and they do impact the sound quality. They just don’t impact it to the same degree of changing out your speakers for something better.

I think the least bang for your buck (or the worst beating you can take for your bucks) is speaker wire and interconnects. You can spend absolutely crazy money on wires and you can convince yourself they have lifted more veils than a middle-eastern gigolo, but the reality is that they just can’t change the sound of your system in a profound way unless they are doing something wacky by design. You only have 3 electrical parameters to play with plus shielding and audio cables are really simple to design and cheap to build until Rube Goldberg creeps in and adds complexity where none is needed. Cables are a very small spice in the recipe of your stereo system. They can affect the flavor of your stereo, but they can’t change a hamburger into a NY Strip.

One thing that hasn’t changed for me is that 15 ips 2 track tapes played back through my Ampex 350s has the breath of life that eludes other sources no matter how good they sound on their own. I wished I owned a gazillion master tapes.

A corrollary might be that some of today's best mid-priced gear is better than SOTA gear of say a decade ago.