RCA Living Stereo - New Reissues - Analogue Productions (QRP pressed)

[puroagave]

appart from the differences in SQ the vinyl formulation RCA used in the '50-'60s was for sh!t, Fremer's oft-repeated descriptor of "melted down BIC pens" applies. HP's camp is reporting that APO's upcoming LSC reissues are the best yet, they used Scheherazade [LSC-2446] as an example:

"We compared this new 200-gram, 33-rpm LP from Analogue Productions with the original RCA Living Stereo issue, and Classic Records 33 rpm version, and were surprised at the outcome. Why? Because to these ears, the new Analogue Productions version was the more relaxed and natural sounding of the bunch. The sound is as it should be, inviting the listener into the music and entirely consonant with Reiner’s readings. This transfer bespeaks a confidence in the sound on the master tape, without the artificial touch-ups (a brightness) later found in the original Living Stereo pressing and the more pronounced jiggering in the version from Classic Records. - HP"

 

[MylesBAstor]

appart from the differences in SQ the vinyl formulation RCA used in the '50-'60s was for sh!t, Fremer's oft-repeated descriptor of "melted down BIC pens" applies. HP's camp is reporting that APO's upcoming LSC reissues are the best yet, they used Scheherazade [LSC-2446] as an example:

"We compared this new 200-gram, 33-rpm LP from Analogue Productions with the original RCA Living Stereo issue, and Classic Records 33 rpm version, and were surprised at the outcome. Why? Because to these ears, the new Analogue Productions version was the more relaxed and natural sounding of the bunch. The sound is as it should be, inviting the listener into the music and entirely consonant with Reiner’s readings. This transfer bespeaks a confidence in the sound on the master tape, without the artificial touch-ups (a brightness) later found in the original Living Stereo pressing and the more pronounced jiggering in the version from Classic Records. - HP"

Yes HP raved and waxed poetically about the original CR releases. Why didn't he hear these problems then? So now we have to buy these and wait until someone else does it again to find out the upcoming reissues faults?

Funny thing. Everybody else heard the problems with the CR and HP blasted them in print accusing them of having a vested interest in selling the original LPs. BS pure and simple and right out of Hobson and HP's mouth.

 

[hvbias]

Guess we'll just have to disagree there for exactly the same reasons outlined above especially the string tone and sense of hall. (In fact pretty much all reissues lose that sense of space of the original.) I should also add and Witches Brew is the best example, that CR boosted the low end too much.

Just this weekend compared this Sibelius VC 45 rpm with the original shaded dog (10/11S) and again no contest. The 45 rpm was just plain boring.

"In fact pretty much all reissues lose that sense of space of the original"

Is this a result of newer vinyl formations, mastering or degradation of the master tapes? I'm not disagreeing with you I hear it on some reissues, but not all. Theoretically would one of these RCA Living Stereo master tapes copied to 15 IPS tape sound worse or better than the original shaded dog

 

[MylesBAstor]

"In fact pretty much all reissues lose that sense of space of the original"

Is this a result of newer vinyl formations, mastering or degradation of the master tapes? I'm not disagreeing with you I hear it on some reissues, but not all. Theoretically would one of these RCA Living Stereo master tapes copied to 15 IPS tape sound worse or better than the original shaded dog

I think it's tape degradation over the years. BTW RCA used different EQs and several different types of tape to record the Living Stereos. That may explain some of the variabilty. The worst decision was when the village idiots at RCA forced Layton and Mohr to use RCA's own tape formulation. Total disaster.

The vinyl can have an effect and some of the Chesky's done at Europadisc with a "soft" vinyl composition definitely lack upper octave extension not to mention they get noisy very rapidly. Obviously there's something to the clarity vinyl as you'll see all of Chad's forthcoming UHQR disc hand pressed with this vinyl formulation.

There are a group of engineers, however, that feel you won't get the best results unless you play the tape back on the same type of head stack used on say the Ampex machine. I know one guy who has 24 different head stacks

 

[rockitman]

Christian stop changing the subject. We were talking sound quality-period. And actually I was lucky and started buying the RCAs, Mercs 35 years or so ago so most are in good shape. Nowadays YMMV and agree if surface noise is an issue go with the reissue. Also perception of surface noise is a function of playback gear and electronics. For instance records that have no right to sound good do on linear tracking arms.

It's kind of hard hearing those quiet inner details when the record surface itself has a much higher noise floor than the Classic Reissues, so yes, I am talking sound quality.

 

[MylesBAstor]

It's kind of hard hearing those quiet inner details when the record surface itself has a much higher noise floor than the Classic Reissues, so yes, I am talking sound quality.

Well sorry if that's the problem. Those aren't playable records then, they belong in the junk pile. Can't say that's my experience but maybe that's some insight that have gained over the years. One needs to sort the wheat from the chaff and only buy from dealers that you can trust. Yes there's some real junk around but there are still really good copies around.

Also the electronics play a huge role in the perception of noise and it's being noted many times in the past that tubes somehow "decode" this surface noise different that does ss equipment. At least that's been my experience and ss exaggerates surface noise. Is it a temporary transient overload? I'll leave that to others to figure out. All I know is that I have no issues with my original copies like you describe. Others that didn't get into buying these records when the going was good, have the new releases to play and enjoy.

But let it be said that it's a rare day when any reissue equals, much less surpasses the original release. That's not to say reissues don't have other plusses, most of all, keeping the analog industry alive. Without them, there'd be no turntable sales.

 

[rockitman]

But let it be said that it's a rare day when any reissue equals, much less surpasses the original release. That's not to say reissues don't have other plusses, most of all, keeping the analog industry alive. Without them, there'd be no turntable sales.

you are forgetting the sonic superiority of 45 rpm from tape vs a 33 from tape. There is a big difference there.

 

[MylesBAstor]

you are forgetting tHihe sonic superiority of 45 rpm from tape vs a 33 from tape. There is a big difference there.

The same information is missing at both speeds. See for instance even 45 Casino Royale vs originals. 45 sounds real good until you hear the original. Where the question of surface noise really comes more into play is with jazz lps where owners played the albums to death as opposed to classical collectors who played the lps once and put it on the shelf.

 

[hvbias]

Those RCA shaded dogs were also pressed at different pressing plants. Some may have used worse vinyl formulation than others. I am more a fan of Romantic era composers, but have originals of five of the RCA Heifetz LPs. One of them is very noisy, the other four excellent.

I'm also fairly certain the first plated lacquers for less popular titles were also used into the "white dog" labels, whose vinyl formulations may have been better.

 

[puroagave]

i hear what Myles is saying but i wont go back to buying original RCAs and Mercs, been there done that. for me its reissues and i agree with Christian, its hard to go back to pressings that don’t allow low level sounds to come through and my tolerance for noisy vinyl is probably higher than most.

ive also noticed tubes treat pops/clicks differently than SS and speakers too. phase coherent designs (vandersteen, thiel, et al) tend to isolate surface noise at the speaker positions rather than populate the sound field with artifacts which are often more annoying.

 

[MadFloyd]

Looks like the first few vinyl releases were pushed back from Sept to Oct...

 

[rockitman]

Looks like the first few vinyl releases were pushed back from Sept to Oct...

Valin reviewed some test pressings. These remasters are from the original tapes and sound spectacular. Dead quiet, flat. He has a whole article in AS which I just got today. I do wish he did 45 rpm though. He would of achieved a bit more fidelity and dynamics. I bought a subscription even though I have 22 of the 25 releases.

 

[MadFloyd]

Valin reviewed some test pressings. These remasters are from the original tapes and sound spectacular. Dead quiet, flat. He has a whole article in AS which I just got today. I do wish he did 45 rpm though. He would of achieved a bit more fidelity and dynamics. I bought a subscription even though I have 22 of the 25 releases.

I'm pretty excited to hear them myself. I also bought a subscription and have many of these on vinyl already (and probably all of them on SACD). Having recently acquired some of these on 45 RPM I agree with you; I have a hard time imagining that the new 33's could be better.

Assuming these are good, I hope they come out with another round of titles.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I'm pretty excited to hear them myself. I also bought a subscription and have many of these on vinyl already (and probably all of them on SACD). Having recently acquired some of these on 45 RPM I agree with you; I have a hard time imagining that the new 33's could be better.

Assuming these are good, I hope they come out with another round of titles.

I could

 

[MadFloyd]

I could

Care to elaborate, Myles? I recall reading from you that reissues have their demons in terms of lost information etc due to tape age (statements supporting the pros of the originals) but why do you think these reissues will be better?

 

[MylesBAstor]

Care to elaborate, Myles? I recall reading from you that reissues have their demons in terms of lost information etc due to tape age (statements supporting the pros of the originals) but why do you think these reissues will be better?

Well I don't know the AP releases will be better (we're also not going to be listening to cherry picked test pressings for review), there were a number of areas where the CR Classic Records could have been better. If you want a hint, listen to Bernie Grundman's remasterings pre-and post-studio rennovation. That said, I thought the low end on the CRs was boosted (as opposed to lacking on the early RCAs), the strings on the reissues tended to be harder than the originals and the sense of spacialality heard on the originals was missing. For starters.

I also hope these reissues are better than the Power of the Orchestra AP reissue with its really steely sounding strings.

Why do I think they will be better? The RCAs, as opposed to Mercuries, suffered from real cutting lathe limitation issues. One would hope that the improved tape deck heads and electronics coupled with better cutting lathes and record presses could offset the aging of the original tapes.

 

[MadFloyd]

Myles, do you think Bernie Grundman's latest go-rounds with the ORG titles are better than his work back with Classic Records? I don't have that many to compare but the one mentioned in this thread - Prokofiev Love For Three Oranges Suite seems to be better back as Classic Records than the recent mastering for ORG.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm only trying to understand.

Thanks.

 

[rockitman]

Prokofiev Love For Three Oranges Suite seems to be better back as Classic Records than the recent mastering for ORG.
.

The Classic Records 45 rpm is superior to the ORG 45 imo. I have both.

 

[MadFloyd]

The Classic Records 45 rpm is superior to the ORG 45 imo. I have both.

That's what I was trying to say.

 

[MylesBAstor]

That's what I was trying to say.

To be honest, I bought the ORG/Prokofiev but haven't played it, in part because the CR didn't do the original justice. I didn't want to be further disappointed.