Recommendation for Speaker + Amplifier - Up to $50k total for both

[sheppard]

It's been 10 years since I last changed my amplifier and speakers - a long time in audiophile land! Recently, I found myself wanting to see how much better sound I could get out of my audio system. Over the years, I've found myself subconsciously listening to simpler music and I recently came to the realization that it's at least in part because my system doesn't reproduce complex music well.

With that in mind, I'd like to get recommendations for a speaker/amplifier pair for up to $50k (new or used) total. The amplifier/speaker are the two components that need to match well which is why I'm asking for a recommendation for both together.

Particularly for electronics, I prefer products that have local service and support (I'm in Northern California) even if the manufacturer is international.

Room Dimensions:
20'L x 10.5'W x 9'H
The room is also used for home theater so speakers can't be such that they would block the projection screen. However, the audio system's main purpose is for music and producing thundering bass for movies is not important.

Current System
Audio Note AN-E SPe + Audio Note Oto

I've had the above for 10 years and it plays reasonably well within it's limits, those limits being more complex music. It's also nowhere nearly as resolving as the reference systems listed below, even with simpler music. The bass is surprisingly extended because the speakers are designed to be corner loaded which is how I set them up, and I've found many other floor-standers that are physically bigger sound lean in comparison. The corner loading is also convenient given the narrow room doubling as a home theater.

Reference Systems I've Heard and Liked:
I have not been to many shows but there are two systems I've heard in the past 10 years that I recall liking a lot:
Wilson Watt / Puppy 8 + Lamm L2 + Lamm ML2.1
Acoustic Zen Crescendo MK2 + Triode TRX-2 + Triode TRX-M845

Why don't I just get one of the above systems? Well, I just might. But I thought I'd widen my horizons and see what else is out there.

One thing in common between the two systems above is that they both have SET amplifiers. If you're going to recommend a solid state amplifier, it would be helpful if you've heard a SET-based system at some point for comparison, and that you either didn't like it (so I know your preferences), or that you did like it and the solid state recommendation is as good or better.

Amplification Preferences:
I would like to have the low maintenance and ease of use of solid state, but every time I've tried solid state, I ended up going back to tubes. Every solid state amplifier I've tried in my system feels like it's coloring my system in an unpleasant way and makes me stop listening after 15 minutes. That said, I hope it's just the case that I haven't tried a good enough solid state amplifier so I'm open to suggestions for both (or hybrids).

Heat output is a consideration given California's climate.

I'm open to separates or an integrated, with a preference for an integrated simply to have fewer boxes to manage.

Speaker Preferences:
It can't be too wide at the viewing level or it would block the projection screen. That aside, my experience has been that systems with higher sensitivity (or easily drivable) speakers sound better but I'm open to any pairing that works well together.

Music:
I listen to 40% alternative (Radiohead, Travis, Wilco, Sufjan Stevens), 20% indie/folk, 20% jazz, 20% classical.

Listening Level:
I listen to music with 85dB peaks C-weighted, about 78dB peaks A-weighted.
For those that don't have a decibel meter, this isn't that loud. Dynamics are important, but not about the ability to play very loudly.

For those making recommendations, it would be particularly helpful if you've heard some of the components in the reference systems I've liked above as a point of reference. I look forward to your suggestions!

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Recommendations from this thread

Raidho D-3.1 + Soulution 530
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?25501-Recommendation-for-Speaker-Amplifier-Up-to-50k-total-for-both&p=511214&viewfull=1#post511214
- $130k new, $50k used

Magico V3 + Zanden 3000 + Zanden Audio 9500 MK III
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?25501-Recommendation-for-Speaker-Amplifier-Up-to-50k-total-for-both&p=511423&viewfull=1#post511423
- $40k used

Von Schweikert Endeavor E-3 MkII + KR Audio P-135 Preamplifier + KR V900 monos
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?25501-Recommendation-for-Speaker-Amplifier-Up-to-50k-total-for-both&p=511236&viewfull=1#post511236
- $35k new

Magico S3 MKII +Luxman M-900u
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?25501-Recommendation-for-Speaker-Amplifier-Up-to-50k-total-for-both&p=511369&viewfull=1#post511369
- $35k used

Wilson Audio Alexia 1 + Air Tight ATM-1S
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?25501-Recommendation-for-Speaker-Amplifier-Up-to-50k-total-for-both&p=511378&viewfull=1#post511378
- $35k used + new

Magico A3 + Soulution 530 integrated
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?25501-Recommendation-for-Speaker-Amplifier-Up-to-50k-total-for-both&p=511230&viewfull=1#post511230
- $30k new + used

YG Carmel + Vitus Audio SIA 025
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?25501-Recommendation-for-Speaker-Amplifier-Up-to-50k-total-for-both&p=511200&viewfull=1#post511200
- $20k used

Von Schweikert Endeavor E3 Mk2 + Aesthetix Calypso Eclipse + Atlas Signature Stereo
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?25501-Recommendation-for-Speaker-Amplifier-Up-to-50k-total-for-both&p=511236&viewfull=1#post511236
- $20k new + used

Magico Anything + VAC 200iQ
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?25501-Recommendation-for-Speaker-Amplifier-Up-to-50k-total-for-both&p=511457&viewfull=1#post511457
- $20k used

Rosso Fiorentino Siena + MastersounD Evolution 845
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?25501-Recommendation-for-Speaker-Amplifier-Up-to-50k-total-for-both&p=511323&viewfull=1#post511323
- $20k used

Von Schweikert Endeavor E3 Mk2 + Hegel H360
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?25501-Recommendation-for-Speaker-Amplifier-Up-to-50k-total-for-both&p=511251&viewfull=1#post511251
- $10k used

Unsorted
JBL M2 + ?
AudioKinesis Prisma + Lamm M1.2, Thrax Hero's, Pass Laboratories XA25, Thrax Ares
Thrax Lyra + Thrax Heros, Lamm M1.2, Thrax Ares
Ubiq Model One + Lamm M1.2
Volti Rival + Pass Laboratories XA25, Lamm ML2.2, First Watt J2
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?25501-Recommendation-for-Speaker-Amplifier-Up-to-50k-total-for-both&p=511237&viewfull=1#post511237

 

[Folsom]

How big can the speakers be?

Alternative = pop?

 

[Barry2013]

YG Acoustics Carmel should fit well into your room or if you need something bigger the Haileys but a bigger chunk of the budget.
Although from Europe the Vitus Audio SIA 025 is a peach of an integrated amp and don't be put off by the quoted power output. It really is much more powerful than the figures suggest. There are two used Mk IIs for sale on Audiogon at 12/15k which can't be very old and as well as sounding top class they look good individually and together, particularly in the silver and grey.

 

[sheppard]

How big can the speakers be?

Alternative = pop?

Good question! The room doubles as a home theater so depending on how the speakers have to be placed, they can't be so wide as to obscure the screen. Perhaps a maximum of 3 feet wide at viewing height.

Alternative is so broad so I broke it up into alternative (Radiohead, Wilco, Travis, Sufjan Stevens) and indie/folk (Feist, Vienna Teng, Natalie Merchant, Damien Rice)

 

[Pb Blimp]

Kinda skinny room.

These work pretty well near walls:

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8j050-raidho-d-3-1-current-model-less-than-1-2-price-full-range

And these make them sing:

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8ic23-soulution-530-integrated-w-phono-stage-solid-state

Or

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8ig3i-soulution-501-new-solid-state

Of course I am biased, but I am guessing you could probably score the monos and speakers (MSRP of $130K) for 50ish.

 

[rsorren1]

How about the new Magico A3 and for power I would choose either the Soulution 530 integrated or the CH Precision I1 integrated. I heard the A3 in Munich in the Magico room on day 1 driven by Soulution 700 series and they were spectacular. $9,800 I’m told. The CH Precision and Soulution integrated amps are both top notch sounding pieces.

 

[JackD201]

KR V900 monos ~16k 160wpc KT120 amp autobias allows direct drop in of KT150, runs relatively cool at Class A/B at least compared to its giant triode brothers
KR P135 45 tube preamp ~7k
Endeavor E3 Mk2s are great for Alternative and Classic Rock. They aren't fazed by stacks of guitar amps on set. ~12k

Lots left over in the budget

This has basically been my bedroom system for two years and going except I use E3 Mk1s. Serves me well with get up and go music in the morning and relaxing music at night. Bases covered. Cables I've used are Audience Au24 and Au24 SX and Master Built Signature. Source is an Aurender W20 and TechDAS D7i DAC which will be replaced when my Da Vinci comes back from upgrade to Da Vinci Dual Mk2.

Alternative electronics that I had success with are my Aesthetix Calypso Eclipse and Atlas Signature Stereo. Warmer and fuller sounding, less bloom and less open up top. Nice for folk, blues, 80's and 90's Rock. I like both combinations. I listen to alternative, hard bop or electronica in the morning and classical and jazz standards at night. The former reco covers more of what I listen to so they stay on the rotation most of the time.

 

[Folsom]

I may have to make more than one post. But I'll start with a few options. All the options I'd consider for a room that narrow have a form of directivity control. I think it would be a silly, silly mistake not to go with a speaker that does, because you simply lack the room to compensate for higher dispersion. This means that for tweeters they should have a horn shape, or be a planar (but they are not ideal for home theater). The mid/bass is ideal to be the largest surface area so it'll be more directional, but that may be hard to comply with depending on speaker choice.

In no particular order:

JBL M2 w/ amps: These are one of the best speakers at any price. They have some directivity control with one of the best horn shapes ever made. There's a lot of amazing tech into these. They can keep up with movies as well, no problem. Whatever music you're listening to may have been mastered on them at some point.

AudioKensis Prisma: This will be the cheapest speaker option, but the way it is designed it would be useful to your room. It has higher directivity like the M2, but it's also designed to reduce 1st reflections, and is highly adjustable. I've heard them and they are extremely pleasant sounding, very cohesive. They can also be powered by almost anything. In any case expect to spend way more an amplification to match these great speakers. Amps to consider with these: Lamm M1.2, Thrax Hero's, Pass Laboratories XA25. Integrated to consider: Pass Labs INT-60, Thrax Ares

Thrax Lyra: What can I say, Thrax makes some killer stuff and is the most undervalued brand on WBF perhaps... These behave like floor standers. They simply have serious ability to lay down powerful sounding music. The tweeter has some nice control, that can really make a serious image with texture and weight. Amps to consider: Thrax Heros, Lamm M1.2, Pass Laboratories XA60.8, Benchmark AHB2. Integrated to consider: Thrax Ares, Pass Labs INT-60

Ubiq Model One:: Highly praised by Matej. They have a nice directional tweeter, and are pretty darn cool 3 way. I like how they look, too. Amps to consider: Lamm M1.2, dual mono Benchmark AHB2. Integrated to consider: Pass Labs INT-250

Volti Rival: Class A stereophile speakers, directional, and high efficiency. It'll work with the narrow room. I'm sure the stereophile review says plenty if read. Amps to consider: Pass Laboratories XA25, Lamm ML2.2 if you can suffer through tubes, First Watt J2, Integrated to consider: Pass Labs INT-60

I guess that's it for the moment... sleep time.

 

[mullard88]

sheppard,

Your room is about the size of my bedroom. My recommendation would be:

1) Hegel H360 integrated amp
2) Masterbuilt Ultra power cord for the Hegel H360
3) Four (4) pieces Center Stage footers for the Hegel H360
4) Endeavor Audio E3 speakers
5) Masterbuilt Signature speaker cables

 

[Solypsa]

Folsoms rec of the JBL M2 is getting right at a main issue: narrow room will benefit from directivity control. Doubling as theater will benefit from decent peak output (even if you don't 'crank it'). But overall room width doesn't lend to big panels or full horn systems. So the classic architecture used in the big JBL exist for a reason....horn tranistion to large pro style 15" gives you sensitivity, good directivity through crossover band and relatively narrow baffle...

Lots of historical and current examples. Most not considered fashionable at present...

 

[sheppard]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone!

Based on the questions, I've updated my post to include my current system, reference systems I've heard and liked, and gone into more detail on my listening preferences. I'm still open to any suggestions, but hopefully the additional information will help people provide a reference for how their recommendation will sound in comparison.

I've also started listing people's recommendations to help others coming to the thread later.

 

[Folsom]

Based on what you've just posted...

Thrax Lyra + Thrax Heros, Lamm M1.2, Pass Laboratories XA60.8, Benchmark AHB2, Thrax Ares, Pass Labs INT-60: Will be closer to Wilson/Acoustic Zen in terms of driver type, but with directionality. For amps it sounds like I'd scratch off the Benchmark AHB2, XA60.8, and INT-60.

The Lyra sounds powerful, but has more internal dampening like Wilson/AZ. The Heros, Ares, & M1.2 are no feedback, which seems to be a trend in what you like.

Ubiq Model One + Lamm M1.2, dual mono Benchmark AHB2., Pass Labs INT-250: This would be a follow up second to being nearer the speakers you talked about. But due to amplifier tastes I'd only consider the Lamm M1.2.

The Lamm M1.2 is the only feedbackless amp I'd consider because these need much more power than many others.

What's complicated is your current speakers resemble these two:

AudioKinesis Prisma + Lamm M1.2, Thrax Hero's, Pass Laboratories XA25., Pass Labs INT-60, Thrax Ares: But based on your concerns I'd scratch off the INT-60

The Lam M1.2, Ares and Heros are feedbackless, which is your cup of tea it seems. The XA25 is unique all together so I'd still consider it.

Volti Rival + Pass Laboratories XA25, Lamm ML2.2, First Watt J2, Labs INT-60: But based on your concerns I'd scratch off the INT-60

These are super sensitive, so even though not feedbackless, the XA25 and J2 are special amps to consider.

JBL M2: They come with special amps that are programmed for them with DSP.

 

[Folsom]

Raidho D-3.1 + Soulution 530
- $130k new, $50k used

Von Schweikert Endeavor E-3 MkII + KR Audio P-135 Preamplifier + KR V900 monos
- $35k new

Magico A3 + Soulution 530 integrated
= $30k new + used

YG Carmel + Vitus Audio SIA 025
- $20k used

Von Schweikert Endeavor E3 Mk2 + Aesthetix Calypso Eclipse + Atlas Signature Stereo
- $20k new + used

Von Schweikert Endeavor E3 Mk2 + Hegel H360

The Raidho's are the only ones listed here that are more directional in the tweeter. The type of tweeter simply has a more narrow dispersion. For that reason it's the only one I'd recommend in your narrow room. And this is despite the fact that I like the E3. Thing is, I love it not in cramped room. So I still would take other speakers over them in your size room. To be specific everything but the Lyra that I named has larger mid/bass drivers so they they will be more directional on top of the tweeter directionality. The Lyra still has a lot of important controlled directivity.

I'm opposed to these amps because they don't fit your appreciation for no to low feedback:
Solutions
Hegel H360


Amps that do fit what you like:
KR V900
Atlas Sig Stereo
Vitus SIA 025

 

[DSkip]

Hello sheppard. This might not be kosher so I hope I'm not out of line, but I did want to recommend you looking at a combination I use as my own personal reference - the Rosso Fiorentino Siena and MastersounD Evolution 845. This pairing is $43,000 retail and is quite exquisite. My listening preferences favor your own with more mellow albeit contemporary selections. I do throw in some other more dynamic music like deadmau5 and it does very well in my 20x17x10 room.

A/V Solutions in Pleasanton, CA is a Rosso Fiorentino dealer and has the smaller Volterra on demo. This would give you a feel for the Siena top end, but you would find much more dynamic impact with the Siena.

http://www.avsolutionsca.com/

 

[Ron Resnick]

sheppard, three feet wide per speaker is okay?

 

[Barry2013]

Raidho speakers have a distinctive sound which a lot of people find flawed. Audition is a must before buying.
I find Soulution too clinical so again would recommend an audition before buying.

 

[microstrip]

If you liked Wilson and Lamm, you can go with them - they are still an excellent match. The indiscreet, but needed questions - how much are you considering spending? Do you want to buy from a physical shop to have support? Do you consider buying preowned gear?

 

[sheppard]

sheppard, three feet wide per speaker is okay?

Three feet wide could be okay if the speakers can be placed closer to the side walls and further away from the rear wall so as not to obstruct line of sight to the projection screen.

 

[sheppard]

The indiscreet, but needed questions - how much are you considering spending? Do you want to buy from a physical shop to have support? Do you consider buying preowned gear?

No worries - if you're thinking about the question, others are probably too. I'm willing to spend up to $50k, new or used, or a combination of the two. If buying new, I'd have to be very confident that I will be satisfied with it for a long time which means multiple auditions at a local dealer and/or an in-home audition for a reasonable length of time.

 

[mullard88]

sheppard,

The only SET amp I have owned was the Jadis 845. At that time my favorite matching speaker for it was the Metaphor 2. This must have been 20 or more years ago. I still have very fond memories of how seductive, relaxed and full bodied the sound was.