Resolution vs. Musicality

Is "natural" an audiophile word? It seems a common word that even children and non audiophiles use. People know what it means, but not some audiophiles. I'm sure your students know too, despite your efforts to confuse the meaning. I have borrowed the expression "natural resolution" to relate it to what we hear from live instruments in space and to distinguish it from what some consider going too far into the analytical.

No, I think I was clear in my joke, but you manage to confuse things. Fortunately students are not naive children and use technical words or words appropriate to debate the specialized matter they want to discuss. Your effort to keep the audiophile discussion childish and naive to avoid debating anything that is not just your own simple perception only manages to keep discussions and superficial and ambiguous.

Surely your natural(TM) will please everyone - it is ambiguous and subjective enough to avoid any one feeling that his system is not natural(TM). We should do a poll asking people if they feel their systems are non - natural(TM)!
 
Stehno, you make a good argument here and it makes sense to me up to a point. But while a highly resolving system exposes more of what exists to be mined from the recording, when that recording has flaws, those flaws will be a detriment to the appreciation of the music. So, for instance if the string section is perfectly miked but the brass section is too closely miked, the highly resolving system will present the strings beautifully and horns will sound like shite. I think it's hard to argue that will result in a higher level of musicality during playback.

That being said, I'm not saying a lower resolving, or additionally a dynamically flattened compromise, would be better (even if possibly easier to listen to) for such a flawed recording, only that this recording is severely compromised in any case.

Well, I covered inferior-engineered recordings already. And since all recordings are inferior-engineered to one degree or another, you're simply describing just another flavor of an inferior-engineered recording.
 
No, I think I was clear in my joke, but you manage to confuse things. Fortunately students are not naive children and use technical words or words appropriate to debate the specialized matter they want to discuss. Your effort to keep the audiophile discussion childish and naive to avoid debating anything that is not just your own simple perception only manages to keep discussions and superficial and ambiguous.

Surely your natural(TM) will please everyone - it is ambiguous and subjective enough to avoid any one feeling that his system is not natural(TM). We should do a poll asking people if they feel their systems are non - natural(TM)!
What's so evil about the word natural? I think I get where you're coming from but what's the target on the wall? For some, it's striving closer toward the sound of unamplified instruments in an acoustic space e.g. a concert, recording hall - or something like that. Isn't that about as natural as it gets? Not to mention much easier to type?

Ok, so you're hung up on the word natural. My hangup is the word neutral, which IMO is an actual bottomless rabbit hole. Then again, perhaps neutral is ultimately synonymous with natural? I think I'm gonna' be sick. :)
 
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What's so evil about the word natural? I think I get where you're coming from but what's the target on the wall? For some, it's striving closer toward the sound of unamplified instruments in an acoustic space e.g. a concert, recording hall - or something like that. Isn't that about as natural as it gets? Not to mention much easier to type?

Ok, so you're hung up on the word natural. My hangup is the word neutral, which IMO is an actual bottomless rabbit hole. Then again, perhaps neutral is ultimately synonymous with natural? I think I'm gonna' be sick. :)

Well, we share the same opinion on bottomless rabbit words. it seems you have not followed the discussion on natural (TM) , if interested please research on it in this forum.

Neutral and natural, as you remarked, share the same ambiguous sense and sound good. As long as we accept "something like that" surely every one will be happy. But they are not able to transmit to readers how a system really sounds, IMHO something we expect in an audio forum.
 
Any think in this hobby is a solution in search of an invoice. Some assume it, others disguise it.

That is patently false. My cables and power cords are essential to making the system work, so one could argue that they fall under the broad category of “anything “. No invoices involved. Same with other DIY solutions I have experimented with.

The most obvious is setting up the system and things like speaker adjustments and cartridge adjustments. No one‘s asking for an invoice. They certainly are solutions to a problem.

You make many broad generalized statements. This hobby is surely about more than generalizations. It is also about individual preferences and solutions and approaches.
 
This hobby is surely about more than generalizations. It is also about individual preferences and solutions and approaches.
I agree. However, the sonic descriptors natural and organic, which are totally subjective terms, are used ad nauseum on this and other forums not to mention equipment reviews.
 
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Interesting review of the Jadis JS1 Mk. V DAC which gets at the heart of the trade-off that can arise between resolution and musicality, and what tubes can bring to the table that solid state simply cannot:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/jadis-js1-mkv-reference-da-proces
I see this as a preference and not about the "resolution" of the system. We decide consciously or subconsciously how we are listening to a system at any given point in time. That's why you can have "hidden" sections suddenly come into focus and once you hear it it stays. The idea you need a "high resolution or low resolution system or anything in between to enjoy music to me is nuts. You either like the music and gets your foot tapping of you don't simple as that.

Rob :)
 
I agree. However, the sonic descriptors natural and organic, which are totally subjective terms, are used ad nauseum on this and other forums not to mention equipment reviews.

Yes, I read the word in many places, yet some think it is a trade marked weird WBF thing preached by the few Kool Aid drinkers. They write (TM) behind it every time. I find that very strange. Nothing can be further from the truth. It is used as a descriptor because people know what it means, even the non audiophiles know what it means. A violin reproduced through a system sounds natural, or it does not. What does describing an amplifier or a cartridge as neutral or organic mean?

The term is used as shorthand, but it is simple and comprehensive. That is its strength, and the fact that it is a common term, easily understood. It helps to describe carefully what one hears, which is what I think Tima is advocating, with specific references to music passages as heard on one's system. That's a great idea, IMO.
 
There is a commercial on Tidal. It talks about getting lyrics incorrect. The argument is they provide music that makes lyrics clear.
Now there is an argument being put forward by the objectivist/ science crowd. You probably read it before. It has been made before on this forum by someone I respect.
This new detail you hear is not the result of a tweak or better resolving equipment. It was there all the time you just were not looking for it. The reason you hear it now is because you are searching for imprpvements to justify the purchase of a new item.
I take what concessions I can get.
After a decade of dealing with expectation bias and basically being called delusional they finally conced yes we are hearing something but it was there all the time. We just were not paying attention
I concede that it was there all the time. The question is why didn't I hear it? Was it my lack of attention or the equipments lack of ability to resolve it,or was it being masked by distortion/noise? Of course I contend it is the latter.
I recently discovered that double bass players breathe. Certainly this was there all the time. Why did I not hear it? I certainly was not looking for it. Neither before nor after the upgrade. Could it be an upgrade of equipment or a change on Tidal from hi-fi ti hi-fi plus?
Curiously this argument of it was there all the time is put forth by those who doubt the efficacy of any alleged improvement. I am afraid they are going to have to do better.
 
That is patently false. My cables and power cords are essential to making the system work, so one could argue that they fall under the broad category of “anything “. No invoices involved. Same with other DIY solutions I have experimented with.

You must be joking. You bought tens of thousands of dollars of ultra expensive gear from the
person who got you the power cords. Do you imagine that David would have a successful business selling just Ching Chengs?

BTW I paid David for the Ching Chengs he kindly got me a fair value and thanked him for them. The parcel was invoiced and I paid taxes on them. The high-end is a business.

My dealer sometimes pays me a meal - and surely they are not free meals! :)

The most obvious is setting up the system and things like speaker adjustments and cartridge adjustments. No one‘s asking for an invoice. They certainly are solutions to a problem.

Again read my previous point. Did you get free service form Jim Smith?

You make many broad generalized statements. This hobby is surely about more than generalizations. It is also about individual preferences and solutions and approaches.

You should understand that individual preferences and economics are different matters.
 
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I agree. However, the sonic descriptors natural and organic, which are totally subjective terms, are used ad nauseum on this and other forums not to mention equipment reviews.

You said it all, but forgot to include marketing. And then we can question why it happens? :oops:
 
There is a commercial on Tidal. It talks about getting lyrics incorrect. The argument is they provide music that makes lyrics clear.
Now there is an argument being put forward by the objectivist/ science crowd. You probably read it before. It has been made before on this forum by someone I respect.

Hello Gregadd

How do they manage that?? There are some lyrics that are unintelligible on the original recordings. How do you fix that without manipulating the recording??

I concede that it was there all the time. The question is why didn't I hear it? Was it my lack of attention or the equipments lack of ability to resolve it,or was it being masked by distortion/noise? Of course I contend it is the latter.

I think it depends on how and what we listen for and our state of mind. Wouldn't you agree It's going to take quite the tweak to suddenly get those lyrics right as an example??

Curiously this argument of it was there all the time is put forth by those who doubt the efficacy of any alleged improvement. I am afraid they are going to have to do better.

Well I can see your point. The question to me is are we in information overload as we listen to complex music?? There is so much going on at the same time I thinks it's impossible to take it all in as once. Obviously you can hear the overall combination but what happens when you decide to listen more critically at a particular part of the mix?? Does it goes back to having a conversation in a crowded room?? You just stop hearing the "noise" ie what you are not concentrating on?? I have to wonder as I am listening to the harmonies what am I missing as I concentrate on them??

I have certainly have had "Damn I never heard that before" moments. We all have had that happen the question is why. Is it your last tweak?? Your state of Mind?? Both?? If we can hear it obviously it's there in the recording and always has been.

What's the trigger that suddenly put's it in the forefront??

Rob :)
 
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Rob I am not ignoring you
I need to give some thought.
 
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Hello Gregadd

How do they manage that?? There are some lyrics that are unintelligible on the original recordings. How do you fix that without manipulating the recording??

I
I don't know how they do it. My first major step toward high resolution was the Magnepan Mg 1. Followed by the Martin Logan CLs I. If I knew I would either hire myself out or start my own business
I think it depends on how and what we listen for and our state of mind. Wouldn't you agree It's going to take quite the tweak to suddenly get those lyrics right as an example??
Long ago I decided to stop listening like an audio critic. You know in the sweet spot with my head locked in a vise. I don't have golden ears. I contend that whatever I hear can be heard by the general public should they be inclined to invest in the equipment and source material.
Well I can see your point. The question to me is are we in information overload as we listen to complex music?? There is so much going on at the same time I thinks it's impossible to take it all in as once. Obviously you can hear the overall combination but what happens when you decide to listen more critically at a particular part of the mix?? Does it goes back to having a conversation in a crowded room?? You just stop hearing the "noise" ie what you are not concentrating on?? I have to wonder as I am listening to the harmonies what am I missing as I concentrate on them??
I don't think its a matter of sensory overload. That is certainly not the case with live music.
There are at least two versions of Speak Low on Tidal. Sophie Milman and Eliane Eliason. I prefer Sophie Milmans voice but I prefer Eliane Eliasons band. The latter much more complex.
I have certainly have had "Damn I never heard that before" moments. We all have had that happen the question is why. Is it your last tweak?? Your state of Mind?? Both?? If we can hear it obviously it's there in the recording and always has been.

What's the trigger that suddenly put's it in the forefront??

Rob :)
I specifically cited non-musical examples. You simply are not looking for breath sounds from a double bass player. On the other hand breath sounds are quite common from a singer.
I listen. That's why I can tell someone what they said in minute twenty-,nine of a video. I am not saying I knew it was at 29 minutes, but I knew was in there.
Lets take the late Harry Pearson. When he heard that subway trai that was inadvertently captured on a recording. You can bet he was not looking for it. He finally got a system carapable of resolving it.
 
Sounds like you would like to define "resolution" to include musicality, which would be different from the historical definition. Here's why that doesn't work. Whatever you might want to add to the category "resolution", it still centers on the extent to which the detail available in the medium is mined and accurately reproduced. With a great recording more resolution (i.e., retrieving more of the available information) might result in more musicality (realistic timbres, emotional content, etc.). However with a less than great recording, even of a great performance, more resolution can result in less musicality and listening pleasure because more of the "warts" are being highlighted. I have experienced this in my own system. For a decade I owned Merlin VSM speakers, the resolution of which was frequently compared to electrostatics. The speakers were called "ruthlessly revealing" by several reviewers, and I found this to be true. With a well recorded sacd for example they were revelatory. I heard detail and nuance in familiar recordings I had never heard before along with outstanding musicality. However when I played anything that wasn't superbly recorded the superior resolution was a curse. Much of my collection became unlistenable. My Ars Aures F1 monitors by contrast were much more forgiving. They didn't retrieve all of the detail that the Merlins did but because of their voicing were more musical and enjoyable over a much broader range of recordings. In this case the less resolving component was more musical, something I've experienced many times over the 40+ years I've been an audiophile.
We really appreciate Merlin as a manufacturer, They have their own idea of musical reproduction...regarding the sound of our F1s, when Chuck Bruce of The Audiophile Voice magazine tried them, he wrote that the reproductive ability of the ars aures was of a realism he had never heard in his life
 
So they were writing about our Midi, first release...

"I found this system a little hard to pin down. I remember leaving and thinking that I liked it a lot better than the Merlin system - the speakers remind me of the Merlin speakers for some reason - and if the speakers were $10K - $15K, that they would be putting some real pressure on the sales of their competitors.
Now I find that they are called the Midi Sensorial.
Who knows, maybe the speakers are good enough to compete against the Wilson Watt / Puppy 7 and the Kharma 3.2E and the Acapella LaCampanella and the Avalon Vision (i.e. Eidolon mkII)... all in the same price range... but that is some pretty stiff competition"
(Audio Federation)



New York Show 2005.jpg
 
So they were writing about our Midi, first release...

"I found this system a little hard to pin down. I remember leaving and thinking that I liked it a lot better than the Merlin system - the speakers remind me of the Merlin speakers for some reason - and if the speakers were $10K - $15K, that they would be putting some real pressure on the sales of their competitors.
Now I find that they are called the Midi Sensorial.
Who knows, maybe the speakers are good enough to compete against the Wilson Watt / Puppy 7 and the Kharma 3.2E and the Acapella LaCampanella and the Avalon Vision (i.e. Eidolon mkII)... all in the same price range... but that is some pretty stiff competition"
(Audio Federation)



View attachment 91614

Yes, I read the word in many places, yet some think it is a trade marked weird WBF thing preached by the few Kool Aid drinkers. They write (TM) behind it every time. I find that very strange. Nothing can be further from the truth. It is used as a descriptor because people know what it means, even the non audiophiles know what it means. A violin reproduced through a system sounds natural, or it does not. What does describing an amplifier or a cartridge as neutral or organic mean?

The term is used as shorthand, but it is simple and comprehensive. That is its strength, and the fact that it is a common term, easily understood. It helps to describe carefully what one hears, which is what I think Tima is advocating, with specific rFYI - eferences to music passages as heard on one's system. That's a great idea, IMO.
FYI:

Jeff Day's recent PFO article: "Musings on Audio: A retrospective ... all those reviews, the overall journey, and lessons learned" (link below), includes a section entitled Time for listening tips ... what do I listen for? (scroll down). In those paragraphs he covers a lot of the concepts and terminology that a number of WBF posters "beat to death" in an attempt to redefine them to align with their own opinions (you know what they say about opinions) when in fact they have been widely understood, accepted, and used in audio journalism for decades. I like for example that he is able to boil the long standing definition of resolution down to one line....."the amount of detail in the audio signal that is audibly presented". This definition makes it easy to understand that high resolution does not in and of itself guarantee, and can sometimes be at odds with more natural, musical sound.

 
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So they were writing about our Midi, first release...

"I found this system a little hard to pin down. I remember leaving and thinking that I liked it a lot better than the Merlin system - the speakers remind me of the Merlin speakers for some reason - and if the speakers were $10K - $15K, that they would be putting some real pressure on the sales of their competitors.
Now I find that they are called the Midi Sensorial.
Who knows, maybe the speakers are good enough to compete against the Wilson Watt / Puppy 7 and the Kharma 3.2E and the Acapella LaCampanella and the Avalon Vision (i.e. Eidolon mkII)... all in the same price range... but that is some pretty stiff competition"
(Audio Federation)



View attachment 91614
The Ars Aures Midi Sensorial in the photo is among the handful of best sounding speakers I have ever heard at any price, and was at the top of my wish list until they pulled out of the USA market. They would be at the top of my list again if there was distribution and technical support in the USA, and I would take them over any Magico model I've heard for example, all of which sound a little clinical to me by comparison. I have a pair of the F1 monitors (see photo) in my A/V system that I bought (show demo) from Landes Audio when they were importing them. Haven't heard another monitor anywhere near their price that I would trade them for.

FYI:
 

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