Revel Speakers

[microstrip]

OK. First, let me retract the word "arbitrary" since the channel track was selected for having adequate balance. I had earlier selected and submitted the pool of recordings, they were quite familiar to me and I not think that there was anything strange about the individual channel tracks played. After all, it was also with unknown speakers in an unfamiliar space.

My point is that you were using audio content in a way that was not expected to be used as a source. Selected for having adequate balance introduces a bias and immediately invalidates any test of preference.

It forces one to particularize one's assessments rather than to simply express a preference. One has to convince onesself of the reasons for the preference.

This kind of method does not lead to better choices for consumers - IMHO it is only a tool for speaker development that can not be isolated. Considering that the method was not able to help you to prefer between the two different Revel speakers I consider that it has mostly shown its limitations for determining preference - something many audiophiles and manufacturers openly say. It is why I do not see any advantages in carrying such experiences in such conditions. It remembers me of people carrying blind tests without carrying positive checks previously to validate the experience.

Remember that Harman intrinsically dislike reviewers - but they need them! All IMHO, YMMV!

 

[Kal Rubinson]

My point is that you were using audio content in a way that was not expected to be used as a source. Selected for having adequate balance introduces a bias and immediately invalidates any test of preference.

Nonsense. It is a constant in the considerations, especially given the wide range of program balance out in the wild world.

This kind of method does not lead to better choices for consumers - IMHO it is only a tool for speaker development that can not be isolated. Considering that the method was not able to help you to prefer between the two different Revel speakers I consider that it has mostly shown its limitations for determining preference - something many audiophiles and manufacturers openly say.

Ah but it helped me greatly in clearly defining why I would not consider Speaker C although I had briefly considered it. Also, it refined the differences (and the magnitude of the differences) between the two Revels and let me weight them along with other (non-audible) considerations, e.g., the Salon2 is too big for my room. It is, imho, not a replacement for normal listening experiences but it strongly illuminates them.

So, yes, it is Harman's tool kit and I am not advocating such a setup for every city of a certain size. I am saying that it was an informative experience which will affect my ongoing auditioning (if not listening) behavior.

It is why I do not see any advantages in carrying such experiences in such conditions. It remembers me of people carrying blind tests without carrying positive checks previously to validate the experience.

For that, I defer to Floyd Toole and his publications. He is active on AVSforum these days, so you might want to address this to him: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/3038828-how-choose-loudspeaker-what-science-shows.html

 

[steve59]

I notice ultima speakers in pairs react more different than alike other stereo pairs of brands playing stereo and I can't say one is better than the other but there is an obvious difference in the way my 2 pair of ultimas reproduced stereo than all the other speakers i've played. Like one reviewer stated Aja's release 'Gaucho' gave every instrument its own space, and the salon 2's did that with all recordings. If they're the only speakers that do something are they right while the rest are wrong? I understand the resistance. Listening in mono only tests 1 speaker in a room. I don't have a clue what engineers do to make a stereo recording or the 'tricks' they use to pan sound around a room, just that revels test doesn't show how their speakers will do with it.

 

[microstrip]

Nonsense. It is a constant in the considerations, especially given the wide range of program balance out in the wild world.

Sorry, for me the complete nonsense is using one channel of the recordings to access speakers, even used in a monophonic speaker audition. Saying that the responsibility of checking the quality of the recordings was from the Harman people doesn't help.

(...)

For that, I defer to Floyd Toole and his publications. He is active on AVSforum these days, so you might want to address this to him: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/3038828-how-choose-loudspeaker-what-science-shows.html

No need to ask F. Toole, just read the ITU-R BS.1116-1. We debated it several times in WBF.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Sorry, for me the complete nonsense is using one channel of the recordings to access speakers, even used in a monophonic speaker audition. Saying that the responsibility of checking the quality of the recordings was from the Harman people doesn't help.

I am saying that it doesn't matter.

 

[steve59]

Wouldn't the 'bbc dip' come into play here? If science has shown listeners prefer a slight dip at 1-2 khz couldn't it be suggested 1 speaker would sound less aggressive than 2 if they're playing flat at that response? also the much desired yet elusive bass lock in a room when one lucks upon that elusive placement where we can feel every bass note, that usually takes both speakers in a stereo pair? Again, my last 3 pair have been revels so I'm not hating on the brand , I'm wondering if the single speaker test isn't more a compromise of convenience and science if we as listeners don't listen to single speaker mono music?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Wouldn't the 'bbc dip' come into play here? If science has shown listeners prefer a slight dip at 1-2 khz couldn't it be suggested 1 speaker would sound less aggressive than 2 if they're playing flat at that response? also the much desired yet elusive bass lock in a room when one lucks upon that elusive placement where we can feel every bass note, that usually takes both speakers in a stereo pair? Again, my last 3 pair have been revels so I'm not hating on the brand , I'm wondering if the single speaker test isn't more a compromise of convenience and science if we as listeners don't listen to single speaker mono music?

All that is possible and, yes, test situation listening in mono is quite different from normal home listening over, in my case, 5 speakers. It is also inherently stressful. I would not choose a speaker based solely on such auditions.

However, it certainly has illuminated and helped me define the differences among the speakers, some of which I have heard at home in stereo pairs. In some ways, it is like a diagnostic test from a suite of such tests that provides critical information but which, in isolation, is not definitive. So, I would say that the listening results are, like the spinoramas, useful and informative but not definitive.

In addition, Harman maintains that such data is more efficiently obtained and equally discriminating as more elaborate setups but that is a research issue and not an issue for listeners.

 

[twitch]

Kal, I enjoyed the review of the F228Be's. Your comment at the end about 'a domestic loudspeaker', are we to assume they are made here in the good 'ole USA as opposed to the Salon2 and Studio2 which are not ?

Also, for the record, it's Grand Central Terminal (GCT) not Grand Central Station

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal, I enjoyed the review of the F228Be's. Your comment at the end about 'a domestic loudspeaker', are we to assume they are made here in the good 'ole USA as opposed to the Salon2 and Studio2 which are not ?

No. They are not made here either. It states in the specs: “Made in Indonesia.”
I meant that they were made for use in the home to distinguish them from professional/studio/laboratory/PA/etc. applications and, perhaps, to imply that they could actually fit in a "normal" home listening room.

Also, for the record, it's Grand Central Terminal (GCT) not Grand Central Station

Ach! You are correct and I am sloppy enough to have been passing through it for many decades and still got it wrong. In my (lame) defense, real New Yorkers simply call it Grand Central and leave it at that.

 

[twitch]

No. They are not made here either. It states in the specs: “Made in Indonesia.”
I meant that they were made for use in the home to distinguish them from professional/studio/laboratory/PA/etc. applications

gotcha, well at least the Salon2 and Studio2 are made in North America (Mexico)

Ach! You are correct and I am sloppy enough to have been passing through it for many decades and still got it wrong. In my (lame) defense, real New Yorkers simply call it Grand Central and leave it at that.

no big deal, just pokin' a little fun, I come from a long line of railroaders and my Dad being a New York Central man always made sure we knew it was 'GCT' !