Robert Harley's Room

[Ron Resnick]

. . . scale and impact I generally like the subs which accentuate these.

I agree -- if you're just dividing 50Hz and below among more driver surface area.

As I say frequently, for me, driver surface area contributes to scale and naturalness and realism.

 

[Lee]

- The XVX can go very low frequencies — more than enough to cover all musical instruments unless you’re exclusively listening to organ music or deeply focused on sound effects.

- Fully integrating subwoofers with speakers is extremely difficult, almost impossible, due to the physical distance between the bass drivers in the speakers and those in the subs, which leads to interference issues.

- Extending bass response down to 20Hz or even 10Hz is largely meaningless and extremely difficult to properly reproduce in a room of that size.

- More importantly, adding subwoofers would require additional room treatment — and more treatment would, in turn, demand even greater output. This is because room treatments inevitably absorb not just unwanted frequencies, but also some you actually want to preserve. Room treatment never works only on a single frequency or a narrow bandwidth. In short, subs introduce new problems that didn’t exist before.

- Most critically, adding subs in this specific case would require an active frequency-dividing network. Introducing that into the signal path (between the preamp and power amps) degrades the sound. Even adding a simple switch can noticeably affect sound quality, let alone a complex dividing network. You can actually see the dividing network in the video.


I don’t believe Wilson thinks subwoofers as necessary for the XVX. If they did, they would have either included subs as part of the package or, even better, integrated them directly into the speaker cabinets. Of course, they might argue that they left them out to avoid driving up the price — but a customer willing to pay $300K for an XVX would likely have no problem paying $400K if it became a necessity.


So does the loudness switch on low volumes but that doesn’t mean it’s right. To hear really low frequencies in music it has to be very loud, louder than levels at home.

A few observations:

1. Once you know the process, integration of subs is fairly straightforward.
2. You don't necessarily need additional room treatments. We didn't add any to my room after I installed my pair of LoKe subwoofers.
3. Many subs have the crossover adjustments built-in.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

And Franc Kuzma's new listening room ?????? ;-) ;-)

 

[Lee]

One more thing...

When we added the subs to my system, the location of the instruments became more clear. Now when I turn off the subs the degree of realism collapses a bit.

That's why I said earlier it was more about the space than the bass.

 

[JiminGa]

A few observations:

1. Once you know the process, integration of subs is fairly straightforward.
2. You don't necessarily need additional room treatments. We didn't add any to my room after I installed my pair of LoKe subwoofers.
3. Many subs have the crossover adjustments built-in.

I obviously agree with 2 and 3. I don’t agree with 1. Nailing the dial is very very tricky if you’re not just focused on soundstage and impact. If you are then yes it’s fairly straightforward. So, again, it all depends on everything else including your own personal objectives.

 

[bonzo75]

I have heard a XVX system where the dealer turned the subs on and off a couple of times while a song was playing. "Need" is a strong word but you very much want the subs

I have heard it with subs in at 60 hz apparently to address a room node

 

[Kingrex]

I was listening to a wilson system with the new wilson subs. When the subs were turned off, for some reason I went into audiophile mode and started to listen to the speakers and the system. When the sub was turned back on, I forgot about listening to the speaker and went back to listening to the music. It was better with the subs.

 

[Elliot G.]

I obviously agree with 2 and 3. I don’t agree with 1. Nailing the dial is very very tricky if you’re not just focused on soundstage and impact. If you are then yes it’s fairly straightforward. So, again, it all depends on everything else including your own personal objectives.

Again I agree. Having the subs not draw attention to themselves and to fully integrate with all kinds of music is not simple nor easy but it can be done with great results. I do again want to mention that all subs are not equal not equivalent. I think many forget this for some reason.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Nailing the dial is very very tricky if you’re not just focused on soundstage and impact. (...)

What else are you thinking about? IMO if subs introduce timbre or other tonal artifacts impact is also affected.

 

[mtemur]

A few observations:

1. Once you know the process, integration of subs is fairly straightforward.
2. You don't necessarily need additional room treatments. We didn't add any to my room after I installed my pair of LoKe subwoofers.
3. Many subs have the crossover adjustments built-in.

I’m aware that many subwoofers have a built-in crossover. It’s a very basic fact known to most, but my prior comment wasn’t about subwoofers in general.

Please watch the video first. There is an active frequency-dividing network placed after the preamp and before the power amps. My comment was, and still is, specifically about Robert Harley’s setup and the context of this particular system.

 

[mtemur]

I have heard a XVX system where the dealer turned the subs on and off a couple of times while a song was playing. "Need" is a strong word but you very much want the subs. From track to track you might get little noticeable bass or a lot depending on how the song interacts with the room nodes; but you will get a greater sense of space with the subs in whether you notice extra bass or not.

If I add an equalizer to the setup you would hear a difference when I switch it on and off but that doesn’t mean equalizer is necessary.

The amount of bass or how deep it extends doesn’t always determine bass quality. Take drums, especially the kick drum, as an example. The sharp impact, the quick rise to peak level, and the immediate decay of a real kick drum are incredibly difficult to reproduce accurately in a home audio system. However, the sound you hear at home should at least resemble the real thing—you should feel it in your chest and stomach, almost as if it’s kicking from under the couch. Interestingly, the kick drum isn’t even considered deep bass, but it’s a great indicator of the speed and quality of your system’s bass response.

Here are some records I consider useful for evaluating this. You should hear—and feel—the “whack” of the drums:

-James Newton Howard & Friends – Entire album, especially “L’Daddy” and “Slippin’ Away II”
- LA4, Going Home – “Things Ain’t What They Used to Be”
- Ben Webster at the Renaissance – “Georgia on My Mind”
- Art Pepper Meets the Rhythm Section – “Tin Tin Deo”
- Charlie Byrd – CCS 8002 – “Old Hymn”
- Sheffield Drum Record – Side II

People are fascinated by extended, slowed down and bloated bass by subs for the expense of speed and quality.

 

[Kingrex]

I was talking with a dealer today about a new store he is building. Our conversation wandered and he mentioned with subs, you are filling in missing harmonics from higher order instruments such as piano. This made sense to me as when you hit a middle C, the lower and upper strings will vibrate in sympathy. Without subs, you could be missing some of the lower octave harmonics and not hearing the whole of the piano. Same with a tweeter. Its not just the actual note you are trying to reproduce, but the whole of the instrument. The same could be said with classical music recorded in a performance venue. There are harmonics and reflections in the room. If you don't get full frequency, you may loose ambience of the hall.

 

[Kingrex]

I agree, all subs are not created equal. I hope this does not make people think you can not affectively use subs unless you spend more on the subs than your main speakers. Lots of people have success with SVS. Lots of people use a swarm. A swarm is $6500 for the 4 speakers. You need amps and a crossover. An Ashley Protea crossover is about $1200 and there are very good stand alone class D amps that can drive subs very effectively. You can build a very good 4 channel sub system for under $10K. Integrating it will take skill. JR of Wally Tools is very good at setting up a swarm. From what I understand, he does use microphones and software to get the main part of setup complete, then move onto final tuning by ear. Its not easy, but can be done.

The Wilson system I heard with subs was setup by a pro and it took and entire day to get it right. But boy is it good when its right.

 

[Charles S]

I listened to Robert's video. I converse with him frequently and recently received an email from him. My audiophile buddy came over a few days ago. He is an industry expert, works for Emotiva and is really into the high end. problem is, he has a daughter in an expensive private college. He says the infrasonic bass is all the rage among the young audiophiles and will be going for an Ascendo 24" sub or a pair of them, eventually. A lot of folks are into infrasonic bass. I am. Of course your sub system must be able to produce subsonic notes that shake the room apart, no question, but it is the extremely soft infrasonic notes that pressurize your room that are most thrilling. My room will pressurize at less than .2 watts.

We listened to Stjernholm Reviews which has all kinds of music and room shaking bass on many tracks. He laughed all the way through it. We listened for over two hours and then we went downstairs for a discussion. We talked mainly about streamers because I have recently installed a streaming system. I will go downstairs and send some pics and my new Signature.

Let me say this and I have said this repeatedly but there is a group of folks that believe that they know more about Wilson speakers than Wilson. The XVX is a smaller more versatile version of the WAMM. It's designed to fit into smaller rooms and certainly can be used as a stand alone speaker, but so could the Master Chronosonic. However, Wilson will not sell the WAMM that way. If you want the speaker you must buy the entire system which includes the Subs, two of them, and the crossover. It is a fact that when the WAMM is setup by Wilson in a home that the Master Chronosonic subs are run independently of the Master Chronosonic speakers, which are always run full range.
I will point out that 1) RH runs his XVX full range and independent of his Subsonics. 2) the XVX was designed by Wilson to reach its maximum potential as a complete XVX/Subsonic system. True, the XVX has great bass as a stand alone speaker just as its elder sibling does but this is provided as an inferior option by Wilson to fit it into rooms like Mike Fremer's where Subsonics are not feasible. 3) In looking at Roberts room and where is XVX is now situated, you will notice that the tweeters are pointed directly on axis at the ears of the listener in the optimum sitting location. It is called on axis listening. It is the way Wilsons are designed to be listened to. When you take virtually an other speaker, you must optimize the amount of toe in or toe out either by measurement or by listening, which introduces a complex variable into the setup which will already be quite complicated

In addition, Robert knows and agrees that his Subsonics are currently massively underpowered. The Subsonics need 2K watts/ch provided by two massive mono amps that he has been patiently waiting to review. The Subsonic are massive, weighing over 600 pounds each and not particularly sensitive (87dB). There is a tremendous difference between an XVX/Subsonic system and a high end speaker/subwoofer system where the subwoofer is added subsequently, possibly and most likely from another manufacturer like REL or JL Audio. These types of setups generally require some kind of active crossover (LP and HP both in) employed between the sub and the main. Rarely, are these systems run full range and even if they are, the results are frequently not optimal because the main speaker was not designed to be part of an integrated speaker/subwoofer system.

When I was setting up my XVX, even though my Thor is not as quick as the Subsonics, I chose it on Wilson's recommendation, over a mono Subsonic, in a horizontal lie, because of its robust output and much higher sensitivity of 93 dB. The Thor was a Dave Wilson design as a replacement for the XS which weighed 750 pounds and made of MDF. My Thor has an output that equals or exceeds that of the XS and is designed to be run in the horizontal position and for an XLF, not an XVX. But I have achieved excellent results with my Thor which is run independently of my XVX with LP only at 30 Hz, no HP, and summed mono the way Dave Wilson designed it to be run. The original crossover that Wilson used for years was an extremely well designed mono electronic crossover. If you wanted stereo subs you had to buy two.

Charles

Charles Updated System: Wilson McIntosh Audioquest

Amps: McIntosh: MC3500MKII (2); MC1.25KW (2); MC2.1KW Anniversary
Preamp: C-12000 Anniversary
Sources: MCD12000 Anniversary; MVP881; MVP851; MR87; Marantz 510LV; Lenovo Yoga laptop
Speakers: Wilson Chronosonic XVX
Sub-Woofer: Wilson Thor’s Hammer; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover
Cables Main System AQ: WEL Signature speaker cables; 24’ balanced IC; balanced 1-meter Dragon IC ; WEL Signature digital, Coffee digital coaxial cables; Diamond optical (2); Diamond USB; Dragon (5 HC, 3 source cords); Thunder & Monsoon power cords
Cables Subwoofer System AQ: Redwood speaker cable; Wolf balanced subwoofer IC; Wind balanced IC to ActivXO; Hurricane HC; Firebird HC; Firebird Source; Dragon HC, power cords
Power Conditioners: AQ Niagara 7000; Niagara 5000 (3); (4) dedicated 20-amp lines.
Streaming System: Hi Fi Rose 130RS Network Transport; Samsung internal SSD; Audioquest Wel Signature digital balanced 1-meter IC; Audioquest Diamond 1.5-meter USB cable; Audioquest Dragon 2-meter source power cord; HDMI cable 24’ for music videos
Isolation: Wilson Pedestals; Bassocontinuo McIntosh Ultra Feet; X-material plinth
Cabinet: Double Custom Woodwork & Design (CWD)
Acoustic Treatments: Room and Echo Tunes

 

[andromedaaudio]

I listened to the vid , mine sounds better more like ......music

and a lot cheaper

Respect for RH for posting a music vid , ( love his home / surroundings/ and Wadax )

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I listened to the vid , mine sounds better more like ......music

the lapel mics are pretty lame.

 

[andromedaaudio]

the lapel mics are pretty lame.

I didnt use anything besides the Built in samsung phone mic .
RH probably used something more sophisticated.

I also heard this set up ( apart from the Wadax ) for real in Munchen , i think RH is better off with a RP lyra and keep the change.

CH / RP Lyra combines beautifully

 

[JiminGa]

What else are you thinking about? IMO if subs introduce timbre or other tonal artifacts impact is also affected.

I was referring to concussive impact. Not messing up the midrange, the neutrality, the transparency and what I call the point of singularity where everything lines up perfectly is very very tricky. If you’re all about spatial cues, soundstage and feeling the kick drum in your chest all these are less important. I’m not saying either should be preferred but to me I’m all about the former. I’ll gladly take the latter when everything else permits it.

 

[Elliot G.]

If I add an equalizer to the setup you would hear a difference when I switch it on and off but that doesn’t mean equalizer is necessary.

The amount of bass or how deep it extends doesn’t always determine bass quality. Take drums, especially the kick drum, as an example. The sharp impact, the quick rise to peak level, and the immediate decay of a real kick drum are incredibly difficult to reproduce accurately in a home audio system. However, the sound you hear at home should at least resemble the real thing—you should feel it in your chest and stomach, almost as if it’s kicking from under the couch. Interestingly, the kick drum isn’t even considered deep bass, but it’s a great indicator of the speed and quality of your system’s bass response.

Here are some records I consider useful for evaluating this. You should hear—and feel—the “whack” of the drums:

-James Newton Howard & Friends – Entire album, especially “L’Daddy” and “Slippin’ Away II”
- LA4, Going Home – “Things Ain’t What They Used to Be”
- Ben Webster at the Renaissance – “Georgia on My Mind”
- Art Pepper Meets the Rhythm Section – “Tin Tin Deo”
- Charlie Byrd – CCS 8002 – “Old Hymn”
- Sheffield Drum Record – Side II

People are fascinated by extended, slowed down and bloated bass by subs for expense of speed and quality.

far be it for me to tell you what you like and I do agree that most subs DO NOT do a great job either by their nature or by the inability to set them up properly and tune them. This could be why you don't like them and then again maybe not. I stated that I was not a sub fan for many of the same reasons that they just didn't make it. They didn't blend in level, texture, speed, and overall feel however that was then and today I know that there are options that work. I don't believe these additions are simple , easy or inexpensive but they are transformative and IMO add a tremendous amount in the realism department.

 

[Charles S]

pics of my streaming system