Very nice Ron,
Sounds like you finally is getting there. BIG glorious sound! I have also watched your short video clips of the new 5T tonearm. I really like the looks of your whole set up. Very beautiful! I hope you will enjoy some music for a while now and let the system simmer under watchful eyes and ears. Also, I think the sound from the speakers is sounding better due to they have really settled and calm down for being ”all new”. As I mention very early on, right after you had them installed, I said ”-it will take a long time before you get the right sound”… remember..?! Well Ron, it’s getting there now! Very happy for you!
You’re missing the point. Once he knew what he wanted, he got rid of all the gear that did not get him to that goal. You are always telling us that you disapprove of dogmatism. I see nothing dogmatic about Tang's approach.
You’re missing the point. Once he knew what he wanted, he got rid of all the gear that did not get him to that goal. You are always telling us that you disapprove of dogmatism. There is nothing dogmatic about his approach.
I don't know if this brand has been mentioned in the discussion. I have heard it a couple of times and I think they are fantastic amps, with enough drive/power for your speakers I would assume.
How often do photos of listening rooms show loudspeakers deep into the corners of the front wall? Most people would say that corner placement of loudspeakers is a major compromise.
We have learned there are a lot of data points showing that possibility, especially given Phil’s and Don’s comments on 80w Jadis and the Mahler 3 video
Ron, the latest discussion is about matching your amp to you speakers. You and Al are describing whatever combination you come up with as being inevitably a choice between trade offs. And that this is an inherent aspect of the hobby.
I cannot think of a single compromise in my amplifier and speaker combination. I did not make any trade-offs when combining the two. I chose them as a package and a specific combination. I have other friends who feel the exact same way about their amplifier and speaker combinations.
I simply do not except your premise that every decision involves trade-offs. You find yourself in this position because of choices you have made. You need powerful amplifiers to drive the speakers you chose, but it seems the amplifiers that can drive your speakers do not have certain sonic attributes that you want. You can justify it however you wish, but that does not mean everyone is condemned to the same fate or that it is an inevitable aspect of a hobby.
Peter, since you mention me here: I was not specifically talking about amplification, but about the concept of system compromise in general. This had been in a reply to a post of yours that did not mention amplification either. You are shifting the conversation.
Another "tool" I use is how the plurality view of visitors changes over time. Early on there was a strong consensus that there was a edginess or brightness around 4 to 5 kHz. I heard that clearly myself.
Nowadays the average view is "little to no brightness or edginess," with some people (who report no brightness or edginess whatsoever) feeling I have moved the sound to being a little bit too smooth. So this makes me wonder if maybe I don't want EL34s after all -- as EL34s might nudge the sound further in a smooth direction, maybe resulting in too smooth a sound, with not enough real life "bite."
In part why I put forward a couple of alternative valves as possible contenders for you to consider , certainly not Early metal base or XF1’s .
You may have added to the glossary of terms for a group with your *A Tool Of Audiophiles* Ron
I can’t remember if he heard another pair of Eurodyns somewhere or not. That is not very easy to do. But he knew he was missing something and he had extensive discussions with David before ordering them. He heard the videos during development. At one point I think he was going to keep both speakers.
My point is he heard them and then sold his other speakers because he knew what he wanted and the new speakers delivered. Look at how many cartridges turntables and tonearms he had they were all top-tier. As soon as he heard what he wanted he sold the rest.
Just look at what he did with his various subwoofers and turntables and the enthusiasm with which he experimented and shifted. I admire that and I refer to it as having an open mind. You might describe or define it differently. He never came across to me as dogmatic. And we are constantly being told that is not good to be dogmatic. I admire that about him.
How often do photos of listening rooms show loudspeakers deep into the corners of the front wall? Most people would say that corner placement of loudspeakers is a major compromise.
Ron, Perhaps you don’t understand the design of my loudspeakers. They are meant to go into the corners. It is an integral part of the design. Most speakers are not designed to go into the corners against the walls, actually touching the walls in my case. The early Vitavox marketing claimed the speakers take up two square feet of floor space. The corner placement with open backs increases the efficiency of the system by utilizing the walls of the room to extend the dimensions of the horn. There are few speakers designed like this, so obviously, you will not see listening rooms that show loudspeakers deep into the corners of the front wall.
That is not a compromise and I actually think it’s an advantage for a number of reasons. Is that an example you think of a compromise and trade off? I do not think you understand the issue here. I don’t understand the point you are making about my speaker placement as a major compromise. Anyway, we are talking about matching your speakers to a suitable amplifier, both in terms of power, and in terms of sonics. In both of those cases, I hold up my speakers and amp pairing as not compromised and not involving tradeoffs in the sense you are using to describe your situation and to solicit advice.
The discussion was about matching an amplifier to speakers as being inevitably a compromise involving certain trade-offs. I’m simply sharing one example where it is not. The discussion for 20 pages has been the trade-off in your mind between low power SET and the magic it brings in the mid range for girl with guitar and high powered amplifiers to drive your panels for large scale music.
I am giving you an example where such a trade-off is not inevitable and an inherent part of the hobby as was claimed. And there are other examples in the hobby that do not involve inevitable trade-offs and compromises.
Peter, since you mention me here: I was not specifically talking about amplification, but about the concept of system compromise in general. This had been in a reply to a post of yours that did not mention amplification either. You are shifting the conversation.
Al, there is a lot of conversation shifting going on. I was responding to the claim that audio is inevitably a series of compromises and somehow the chat morphed into compromises in concert halls and music genres.
I think the conversation would be well served if we focus on the issue at hand which is Ron’s solicitation of advice regarding speaker amp matching.
Al, there is a lot of conversation shifting going on. I was responding to the claim that audio is inevitably a series of compromises and somehow the chat morphed into compromises in concert halls and music genres.
I think the conversation would be well served if we focus on the issue at hand which is Ron’s solicitation of advice regarding speaker amp matching.
The amp speaker matching debate is not the whole discussion, Peter. The discussion of compromise of openness and spatiality vs. weight also involved the new tone arm. The focus of the discussion is considerable wider than you make it out to be.
I can’t remember if he heard another pair of Eurodyns somewhere or not. That is not very easy to do. But he knew he was missing something and he had extensive discussions with David before ordering them. He heard the videos during development. At one point I think he was going to keep both speakers.
My point is he heard them and then sold his other speakers because he knew what he wanted and the new speakers delivered. Look at how many cartridges turntables and tonearms he had they were all top-tier. As soon as he heard what he wanted he sold the rest.
Just look at what he did with his various subwoofers and turntables and the enthusiasm with which he experimented and shifted. I admire that and I refer to it as having an open mind. You might describe or define it differently. He never came across to me as dogmatic. And we are constantly being told that is not good to be dogmatic. I admire that about him.
The amp speaker matching debate is not the whole discussion, Peter. The discussion of compromise of openness and spatiality vs. weight also involved the new tone arm. The focus of the discussion is considerable wider than you make it out to be.
Yes the tonearm joined in during the last few posts. I was responding to the last 30 pages. No one was talking about compromised concert halls. But again, I reject the idea that cartridge tonearm pairings inevitably involve compromise. Some of it is just taste. Some are simply mismatched. It’s a hobby involving experiments and making choices.
Is Ron now saying that he has to choose between different cartridge arm combinations each of which involves compromise? Is this an inevitable condition where trade-offs are a premise to that aspect of the hobby? I just don’t see it.
Where did this audio is inherently compromised premise come from?
Sure, that’s a part of it just like any customer and dealer like you were when you bought those YG speakers and couldn’t find amplifiers to drive them. There is also the friendship aspect. But I don’t think Tang kept certain gear and got rid of other gear because David told him to. He chooses by listening and following his own goal.
I am I followed David’s advice, but heard the components before I bought them and actually did home auditions with a lot of the stuff before committing and was able to return anything I wanted before or after I bought it. It was not simply a matter of trust as you imply. The test was in listening. Based on conversations with and posts from Tang, he operated the same way.
there is a greyness, a less open and clear window into the sonic picture that tends to be less tonally rich. so I believe paralleling 10 EL34s a side is going to take away the tone you seek. The 100s have already moved you in that direction some as Phil mentioned vs the lower power JA30mk2. So I think its a balancing act. the cheap way to try massed EL34s is the Manley 250 used for $8k, but its basically the same circuit as the VTLs so wouldn't try it myself. I think the JA120 (read Gregory's review) and the Zesto Eros are interesting options for a little more Class A power, both with output tube flexibility.
I think Ron accidentally stumbled into my advice and he likes it. Fundimentally, nothing has changed in the relationship of amp to speaker. Ron got a new tone arm which distracted him from the hyper focus on the amp/speaker. He is now playing music he likes at a volume he enjoys. He is not playing other people's music at unusually loud volumes.
When Phil gets there, he should be able to rouse Ron out of his happy bliss and back into a turmoiled state.
there is a greyness, a less open and clear window into the sonic picture that tends to be less tonally rich. so I believe paralleling 10 EL34s a side is going to take away the tone you seek. The 100s have already moved you in that direction some as Phil mentioned vs the lower power JA30mk2. So I think its a balancing act. the cheap way to try massed EL34s is the Manley 250 used for $8k, but its basically the same circuit as the VTLs so wouldn't try it myself. I think the JA120 (read Gregory's review) and the Zesto Eros are interesting options for a little more Class A power, both with output tube flexibility.
Thank you. I think a "balancing act" is exactly the correct characterization.
(Some may object to the word "compromise" but in this context it has the same substantive meaning.)
A little more Class A output power is what I am aiming for at this point. Wavac 833 would up the power, purify with SET, and likely not lose much of the warmth of Jadis. I think a Go Fund Me page for Wavac 833 amps is in order.
!
