Ron’s New System

[Ron Resnick]

From the manufacturer I have learned that the input impedance of the PF100 Litz is 100,000 ohms.

Because of my proclivity for a Frankenstein system with multiple amplifier loads on the preamp I have been aiming for a preamp with a low output impedance (50 ohms) and for amplifiers with high input impedance. I am excited to get the Incito S in here.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Most SETs don't make that much power; unless this speaker is in a smaller room I'm doubting it has enough to really drive the speaker properly. I think the Jadis did. So it might simply be the amp is making so much higher ordered harmonic distortion that its sounding a bit bright without obviously breaking up.

Thank you, Ralph.

You think the Jadis has more power to drive the speaker properly because it uses negative feedback, because it is push-pull, or both?

 

[Kingrex]

I take it this is the subpanel coming off of the 240V output for the rest of the clients system...

Yes, otherwise I would land the breakers on one phase. I would also include the main lugs. This is a backfeed 60A. Legal with a bolt on. Technically you are not allowed to backfeed a breaker that is held in place with clips only. SqD does not make any sort of strap to hold a backfed breaker in place. I don't know if the deadfront is considered sufficient.

 

[Kingrex]

Why?


I would defer first to a metallurgist.
Have people A/B tested any of this stuff? Seems like something should exist that points to general preference.

I assume people have listened to duplex and cables. But were they really thinking about the compatibility of metals? Its tough. There are so many variables. I am using a basic copper cord with gold ends. The cord and end were cryogenically treated. The duplex has not been cryo.
I would listen to options to know what works best in my system. I am not a dealer for any duplex of any type.
I have considered changing the outlets in a Torus. But that would void the warranty. Yet, Its and interesting idea. It may up the game. Then it comes back to, what cords does the owner of the system use. What are they plated with.

 

[Atmasphere]

Thank you, Ralph.

You think the Jadis has more power to drive the speaker properly because it uses negative feedback, because it is push-pull, or both?

I am assuming the Jadis was a more powerful amplifier. Its distortion was kept down by its feedback, which is a thing independent of power. If you were keeping the bass out of it, it was probably not working all that hard. So not as bright owing to less distortion.

SETs without feedback realistically have only about 20-25% usable power vs their rated power. For example a 300b can put out 7 or 8 Watts but only about 2 Watts is usable if you really want to hear what the amp is about. At power levels above that, higher ordered harmonics, interpreted by the ear as harshness and brightness, tend to show up. At first they are only on the transients and since the ear uses higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure, they impart a false sense of 'dynamics' to the presentation. By contrast an amp with feedback might seem compressed.

In case its not obvious I am suspecting the amp and speakers are not a good match. It might be that you solve the brightness problem; simply in time you may just get used to it. But I think you can do better and possibly for less money. I missed the bit about how much power the "Italians' make. Knowing that I'd have a better idea of compatibility.

 

[marty]

I don't know Marty. I think there is more to it than math. I guess it would take more listening. I currently have rhodium to Palladium. I did not see a response to that. The aluminum to copper is pretty high. And I have heard severe noise generated by aluminum lugs and neutral bars with copper wire to them. So, maybe your right about the rhodium to gold. I have a hubbell I can try. See what that does.

Rex, it should be obvious that there is certainly more to sonic merits of any connector than just the anodic index and potential battery effect between any two metals. For example, the conductivity of the metal is an obvious consideration (where silver reigns supreme). Perhaps the most useful approach when it comes to connectors, like everything else in audio, is try something and see if you like it. What works for the goose may certainly not work for the gander. However, I do think that denigrating the scientific information for metals such as their anodic index that is universally known and accurately stated in Chat GPT is totally unproductive. Whether you find that information useful or not is another matter entirely. Listening should always be the final arbiter.

For the record, noble metals do not mean they do not undergo corrosion, but rather that they are resistant to corrosion. This is very different than the electrochemical properties of what happens when two metals are in contact with each other physically or undergo a plating process.

 

[marty]

Looks like ChatGPT belongs to the peanut gallery of metallurgists

Is that different than the "nut gallery of audiophiles"?

 

[bonzo75]

Is that different than the "nut gallery of audiophiles"?

You must have missed part of the thread earlier

 

[wil]

I assume people have listened to duplex and cables. But were they really thinking about the compatibility of metals? Its tough. There are so many variables. I am using a basic copper cord with gold ends. The cord and end were cryogenically treated. The duplex has not been cryo.
I would listen to options to know what works best in my system. I am not a dealer for any duplex of any type.
I have considered changing the outlets in a Torus. But that would void the warranty. Yet, Its and interesting idea. It may up the game. Then it comes back to, what cords does the owner of the system use. What are they plated with.

I read that Torus uses Nickle plated Copper on both their duplexes and internal wiring, and that Nickle is resistant corrosion. Is this correct?

 

[marty]

I read that Torus uses Nickle plated Copper on both their duplexes and internal wiring, and that Nickle is resistant corrosion. Is this correct?

I recall a lengthy conversation with Caelin at Shunyata on this subject. Shunyata's famed CopperConn outlets use a flash coating of nickel over copper metal. Like everything in audio, it's an engineering compromise as the conductivity of nickel is less optimal than copper. But unprotected copper corrodes easily and is also more malleable than copper that uses almost any type of plating. In Caelin's view, his minimal nickel plated copper outlets provide excellent SQ as well as excellent physical properties and resistance against copper's corrosion potential. Having tried too many outlets to name, I found their the Copper Conn outlet is generally preferred for my purposes. It's therefore not surprising that other companies such as Torus employ outlets of nickel plated copper as well. This was discussed previously 8 years ago and I think it's content, although a bit dated, has held up fairly well:

Fun with Metallurgy

I’m been meaning to write this up for a while and now it seems like the sort of essay whose length is more suited for an assignment on “what I did on my summer vacation”. When I built my home a few years ago, I had enough foresight to know I should provide plenty of flexibility for the power...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Of course, this was written well before Chat GPT, but perhaps some audiophiles think that the periodic table of elements lacks validity as well. (sorry, couldn't resist)

I would also like to apologize to Ron for taking the thread far off course and therefore propose to move future metallurgy discussions elsewhere.

 

[Kingrex]

Rex, it should be obvious that there is certainly more to sonic merits of any connector than just the anodic index and potential battery effect between any two metals. For example, the conductivity of the metal is an obvious consideration (where silver reigns supreme). Perhaps the most useful approach when it comes to connectors, like everything else in audio, is try something and see if you like it. What works for the goose may certainly not work for the gander. However, I do think that denigrating the scientific information for metals such as their anodic index that is universally known and accurately stated in Chat GPT is totally unproductive. Whether you find that information useful or not is another matter entirely. Listening should always be the final arbiter.

For the record, noble metals do not mean they do not undergo corrosion, but rather that they are resistant to corrosion. This is very different than the electrochemical properties of what happens when two metals are in contact with each other physically or undergo a plating process.

I am just saying I got different answers from Chat GPT.

 

[Kingrex]

T

I recall a lengthy conversation with Caelin at Shunyata on this subject. Shunyata's famed CopperConn outlets use a flash coating of nickel over copper metal. Like everything in audio, it's an engineering compromise as the conductivity of nickel is less optimal than copper. But unprotected copper corrodes easily and is also more malleable than copper that uses almost any type of plating. In Caelin's view, his minimal nickel plated copper outlets provide excellent SQ as well as excellent physical properties and resistance against copper's corrosion potential. Having tried too many outlets to name, I found their the Copper Conn outlet is generally preferred for my purposes. It's therefore not surprising that other companies such as Torus employ outlets of nickel plated copper as well. This was discussed previously 8 years ago and I think it's content, although a bit dated, has held up fairly well:

Fun with Metallurgy

I’m been meaning to write this up for a while and now it seems like the sort of essay whose length is more suited for an assignment on “what I did on my summer vacation”. When I built my home a few years ago, I had enough foresight to know I should provide plenty of flexibility for the power...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Of course, this was written well before Chat GPT, but perhaps some audiophiles think that the periodic table of elements lacks validity as well. (sorry, couldn't resist)

I would also like to apologize to Ron for taking the thread far off course and therefore propose to move future metallurgy discussions elsewhere.

Shunyata outlet seems to be just brass now.

I think this came up because I said Ron should circle back to power instead of chasing amps and suck. It could be a more fundamental issue.

 

[Kingrex]

I read that Torus uses Nickle plated Copper on both their duplexes and internal wiring, and that Nickle is resistant corrosion. Is this correct?

They are brass in my unit. No plating.

 

[marty]

T

Shunyata outlet seems to be just brass now.

I think this came up because I said Ron should circle back to power instead of chasing amps and suck. It could be a more fundamental issue.

I think you are referring to the Shyata SR-Z1 AC outlets. Shunyata reserves the CopperConn outlets for their power distributors and for reasons I do not understand, does not sell the CopperConn outlets separately, but I may be wrong as I have not kept up with this in several years.

 

[Holmz]

T

Shunyata outlet seems to be just brass now.

I think this came up because I said Ron should circle back to power instead of chasing amps and suck. It could be a more fundamental issue.

Did Ron use a different power cord on the Italians than on the French?
Or is there plating on the amplifier’s female hole at is different for the French than the Italians?

The basic cord and it’s male end into the house wall outlet, would be better to be the same for each evaluation and should not be different… which is easiest to ensure when the same power cord is used for Italians and then French.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I am just saying I got different answers from Chat GPT.

ChatGPT's confidence sometimes exceeds its knowledge.

 

[Holmz]

ChatGPT's confidence sometimes exceeds its knowledge.

Sounds like it should pass the Turing test then.

 

[microstrip]

(...) This speaker, being 4 Ohms, has efficiency 3 dB less than the stated sensitivity of 88dB. So its really only about 85dB 1 Watt/1 meter (a much more useful metric when tube amps are being used) as previously pointed out. (...)

I was tod by a manufacturer that most of the time the efficiency of a planar speaker is an approximate number quoted by the manufacturer simply by comparison with a known box speaker used as a reference in dubious conditions. The standard method applies only to point like speakers measured in anechoic conditions - the only value that can be directly compared - but usually it is measured in non standard conditions and corrections are made to this value, introducing large errors. Unfortunately values quoted by manufacturers commonly carry errors up to +3dB. Also they often refer to sensitivity as being efficiency or vice versa - and they are two different things, and many times use different weighting systems in the measurement. An higher number sells better, but can be misleading.

 

[microstrip]

ChatGPT's confidence sometimes exceeds its knowledge.

The perception of ChatGPT knowledge depends on knowledge of the user.

But I found that asking the bot the proper questions to force him to consider the adequate sources sources ameliorates the result. He can be a good slave. Many times when I ask him for his sources of information he changes the answer with a kind apology ...

 

[Al M.]

I was tod by a manufacturer that most of the time the efficiency of a planar speaker is an approximate number quoted by the manufacturer simply by comparison with a known box speaker used as a reference in dubious conditions. The standard method applies only to point like speakers measured in anechoic conditions - the only value that can be directly compared - but usually it is measured in non standard conditions and corrections are made to this value, introducing large errors. Unfortunately values quoted by manufacturers commonly carry errors up to +3dB. Also they often refer to sensitivity as being efficiency or vice versa - and they are two different things, and many times use different weighting systems in the measurement. An higher number sells better, but can be misleading.

Yes, some measure under anechoic conditions, some under semi-anechoic conditions, and some in typical living rooms.

Stenheim are among the latter; they specify that they do so, and don't even pretend to correct for that. Their often touted high sensitivity numbers are thus misleading. "Oh, my Stenheim measures at 96 dB sensitivity!" Yeah, right.