Russian made gear

[mep]

Mr. Astor,

I think you're in the minority on that. Could you explain why early '70s 6H30s sound markedly better than 6H30s made today?

BTW I've never had a leaky tube.

Couple of things - I cannot, and will not attempt to argue with a statement such as "sounds markedly better". Such is opinion. Do enjoy such - but such has no standing in terms of science and engineering at all.

A lot of the NOS furor is about nothing more - imo - than some folks who have invested in some old, worn out, tubes that are 60 years old - or 40 years old. Yes they sound different - but if you test them on a full up tube tester you will find that they are merely - well they are old, leaky, worn out tubes. Their sonic difference is more of a tribute to their poor performance than anything else (this is very strongly true in terms of output (power) tubes).

As for you claim that you have never had a leaky tube. Please. Every tube you have ever owned has been leaking from the day it was manufactured. The only question is how much it has leaked (you do know about "getter" correct?).

Vacuum tubes are leaky and by their very nature degenerative. They begin to wear out the moment they are powered up. They do not get better nor are they able to maintain any matching they might have been subjected to. A clumsy and sloppy technology. Sweet sounding at times - granted. But terribly inaccurate.

Tube guys - Luddites one and all.

Again I find one of your posts full of misinformation. Tubes that are manufactured correctly do not "leak" from the day they are manufactured. If tubes leaked from the day they were manufactured, it wouldn't take long before the tubes no longer had a vacuum and were at air. When a tube goes to air, you can see the insides turn a milky white where the getter has been flashed. And getters were not placed inside of audio tubes because they leaked. Getters were placed inside of audio tubes to soak-up any remaining impurities inside the vacuum envelope and absorb trapped gases that are released from the metal components that make up the vacuum tube as they are heated over time.

If what you said was true about NOS tubes being nothing more than nostalgic pieces of leaky junk and we all need to buy new and nifty Russian tubes, there would be no market for NOS tubes. The majority of NOS tubes do maintain their vacuum integrity and work fine. That's why people are willing to pay a premium for them. The majority of Russian tubes and especially Russian output tubes are not built to the standards used in the glory days of tube manufacturing by U.S. and the European countries. Anyone on this forum who has owned real Mullard EL-34 tubes and used them in their amps would never accept a current Russian made EL-34 if they could choose between the two for the same price. This isn't about nostalgia, it's about quality. Everyone here who would rather own a Chinese or Russian KT-88 instead of a NOS British made Gold Lion/GEC/Monarch, please raise your hand. Ditto for the KT-66.

Also, your last insult against vacuum tubes in general is way off the mark. There was nothing clumsy or sloppy about how vacuum tubes were designed and built. Take a look through any RCA receiving tube manual and marvel at all of the different vacuum tube types that were made. Tube engineers could design a vacuum tube to do just about anything short of greeting you at the door when you came home from work and fetching your newspaper. The amount of engineering that went into vacuum tubes was incredible.

 

[cjfrbw]

I'm hoping Lamm introduces a new missile guidance system. I need one for my personal drone.

The last thing they will hear is the pure purr of Russian tubes.

 

[MylesBAstor]

The last thing they will hear is the pure purr of Russian tubes.

Or hiss. Or crackling. Or thud.

 

[zztop7]

Very few people can still make a truly great pizza.

Mep, I agree with your tube comments, and I would like to add something:

The tube manufacturing ART & SCIENCE is partially lost [very high percentage]. There was Heavy competition between great tube manufacturers. These guys had secrets about materials [coatings] & processes & etc., etc.
When the tube industry started to slow at the end of the 50s & dramatically in the 60s, the knowledgeable people did not write down these secrets in manuals; you had to be there.
Very few people can still make a truly great pizza.
zz.

 

[Bill Hart]

Mep, I agree with your tube comments, and I would like to add something:

The tube manufacturing ART & SCIENCE is partially lost [very high percentage]. There was Heavy competition between great tube manufacturers. These guys had secrets about materials [coatings] & processes & etc., etc.
When the tube industry started to slow at the end of the 50s & dramatically in the 60s, the knowledgeable people did not write down these secrets in manuals; you had to be there.
Very few people can still make a truly great pizza.
zz.

But, I never had a pizza marked 'Made in Great Britain' that was actually made in the U.S.
I like old tubes. I live by them. Except for the Russian ones that Vlad supplies to me.
There are some great pictures of that big tube he uses in the SET amp in place in a missile guidance system.
I guess some skills are transferable. Though I'm not sure I'd want him to make me a pizza.
(FWIW, some of the 'handcrafted' artisnal pizzas made by bearded hipsters in flannel pajamas are pretty good).

 

[MylesBAstor]

Mep, I agree with your tube comments, and I would like to add something:

The tube manufacturing ART & SCIENCE is partially lost [very high percentage]. There was Heavy competition between great tube manufacturers. These guys had secrets about materials [coatings] & processes & etc., etc.
When the tube industry started to slow at the end of the 50s & dramatically in the 60s, the knowledgeable people did not write down these secrets in manuals; you had to be there.
Very few people can still make a truly great pizza.
zz.

Great, great point. And as Tim de Paravicini told me, some of the metals used in those NOS tubes don't exist anymore. Nor for some reason that I don't understand, draw as good a vacuum as the old tubes.

 

[mep]

Great, great point. And as Tim de Paravicini told me, some of the metals used in those NOS tubes don't exist anymore. Nor for some reason that I don't understand, draw as good a vacuum as the old tubes.

I'm pretty sure all of the metals still exist, but the doping compounds for the cathodes and the mixture of chemicals that were used for heater wires is a different subject. As far as drawing a good vacuum before the tube is pinched off, there is no valid reason for that to be a problem today. It's not like we can't manufacture good vacuum pumps today.

 

[zztop7]

Vacuum = Time

Great, great point. And as Tim de Paravicini told me, some of the metals used in those NOS tubes don't exist anymore. Nor for some reason that I don't understand, draw as good a vacuum as the old tubes.

VACUUM: Let us talk about vacuum. When it comes to vacuum there is a MONSTROUS difference between 99.99 vs. 99.999 vs. 99.9999. If you have equal great vacuum equipment how do you get it???
time. They used to leave the tubes on the vacuum machines for extended time. Now, today, rush, rush, profit margin, profit margin. Vacuum = Time.
zz

 

[MylesBAstor]

I'm pretty sure all of the metals still exist, but the doping compounds for the cathodes and the mixture of chemicals that were used for heater wires is a different subject. As far as drawing a good vacuum before the tube is pinched off, there is no valid reason for that to be a problem today. It's not like we can't manufacture good vacuum pumps today.

Thanks, what I was trying to say is that some of the sulfur containing metals are no longer available.

 

[gareneau]

I'd like to resurrect this post, as no one actually rang in with names of high quality Russian gear? Any out there?

 

[spiritofmusic]

All I can add is Dejan of NAT Audio trained as an engineer I believe alongside Russians in his native Serbia
Angel of Analog Domain is Russian
Audiophile Bill can attest to his brilliance, he runs the "little" AD integrated

 

[gareneau]

Thanks, Mark. Yes, I'm looking closely at a NAT Symmetrical preamp (and posted a question to Brad on your NAT - Giant Killers? thread, but the question is for you as well). What concerns me is reliability, particularly as they're not well represented here in the States, at least for now.

 

[vess]

Angel is Bulgarian, not Russian.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I've brought up the subject of reliability many times w my UK dealer, and he says issues from some years back have been amplified into urban myths in the public domain
He has sold NATs to many customers in the UK w no issues beyond predictable ones like tubes failing etc
The infamous "exploding Transmitters tube" in Ken Kessler's otherwise stellar review was not a NAT issue, more like human failings
US issues were more at the door of the distributor who really didn't serve customers or Zu well
Feel free to PM me for more in depth comments

 

[Argonaut]

I've brought up the subject of reliability many times w my UK dealer, and he says issues from some years back have been amplified into urban myths in the public domain
He has sold NATs to many customers in the UK w no issues beyond predictable ones like tubes failing etc
The infamous "exploding Transmitters tube" in Ken Kessler's otherwise stellar review was not a NAT issue, more like human failings

I do not follow the logic here, unless you are stating this to be an unavoidable 'gamble' whilst running equipment at the voltage levels as employed within some transmitter valve circuits such as implemented by NAT.
Over several years I have experienced very few valve failures in an output stage accross a wide range of topology, including other high voltage valves such as 211/845, T1610 etc. However I have yet to expearieriance the stimulation of an output valve litterely exploding in my face!