Cant romy make shorter vids without the cigar ,........ 56 minutes 
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Its not exactly rocket science is it
,Its not exactly rocket science is it
Detailed Speaker Setup and Optimization
- Thread starter sbnx
- Start date
I ve got 2 days to spend in a Hotel in Luanda / angola , no work due to a Joe biden visit /factory closed
But even with plenty of time on hand i had to stop watching after 5-10 minutes .
What it basically comes down to is to didvide the high end into beginners / highly developed practicioners.
Upper class / lower class.
Experts versus beginners , listeners who do everything wrong lol and need to be educated .
What a BS.
SN Snobby Nonsense , trying a make a simple thing complicated
He sounds like a boring preacher
But even with plenty of time on hand i had to stop watching after 5-10 minutes .
What it basically comes down to is to didvide the high end into beginners / highly developed practicioners.
Upper class / lower class.
Experts versus beginners , listeners who do everything wrong lol and need to be educated .
What a BS.
SN Snobby Nonsense , trying a make a simple thing complicated
He sounds like a boring preacher
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The magic and beauty of DPOLS is like Music (Spiritual experience) , everybody can enjoy “music” without spending lots of money and every body can enjoy the sound (DPOLS) without spending lots of money
Yes. Clarity improved so I had to mute the phone mic and type in the words of my post. Keep in mind a small change in speaker position becomes quite big 16 feet away.
In theory yes. But as I wrote earlier, my house is very old with horse hair plaster walls and corners are not perfectly square. The speakers are designed with foam sealer strips and they do allow for some play. I also have different shims under the corners for leveling. It all makes a difference.
I discussed this with DDK. He said unlike some other horns and corner horns, the Vitavox must be absolutely symmetrical. It is not easy given all the angles, but very slight changes are clearly audible.
True and for most of us, it is only a hobby. Tinker obsessively for improvements, simply do what you want and sit and enjoy, or do something in between. Set up guys like Jim Smith and Sterling Trayle are in demand. I watched David Karmeli completely transform the performance of one of his customer’s systems over two days. He had already positioned the speakers during a previous visit so he worked on the room and rest of the system. The difference in the before and after listening experience was shocking.
I totally get this. Very nice explantation Tom. Because of this thread getting active again I rechecked my speakers (as best I can) with the two laser devices I own. The scientist in me cringes at what is still an imperfect process. Trying to line up a laser level on a small dot from 10’ away requires almost as much delicacy as aligning a cartridge! But the “snap into focus” analogy is a great one. I’m part way through my optimization process and so far I’ve achieved better clarity and drive. Tonight I will focus on toe-in, as right now things sound a bit hot on certain recordings.
All good points. I’ll add that rarely are people’s ears symmetrical. It’s more common than not that one ear is higher or lower than the other. Optimize that!
...and in addition to the ears, there is the matter of the level. Even the very fine Stabila is noted as +/- .2 degrees from 1-89 degrees.
0 and 90 degree positions are much more accurate, as level and plumb is very important to use for building things.
When I looked at some of the better angle-measuring devices, I found similar tolerances.
But, it seems everyone agrees that attention to detail in all things, potentially yields the largest opportunity for improvement. And some of the low-hanging fruit can be harvested from these exchanges, which is very helpful.
0 and 90 degree positions are much more accurate, as level and plumb is very important to use for building things.
When I looked at some of the better angle-measuring devices, I found similar tolerances.
But, it seems everyone agrees that attention to detail in all things, potentially yields the largest opportunity for improvement. And some of the low-hanging fruit can be harvested from these exchanges, which is very helpful.
This is a great explanation, and it makes total sense. However, the part I can’t wrap my head around is this:
The variable of the listeners position. One ear might be higher than the other; the head might be tilted a millimeter one way or another the chair moves a millimeter one way or another….
Is the listener position variability of much less consequence than speakers being slightly askew? I can conceptualize that the speaker being off a little bit off will result in a bigger variability than the listener position variability.
As I understand, Stirling optimizes the speaker positions for the room. And the listener position is of a less consequence.
My experience is that I can move my listening position up and back as much as I want and the system still sounds right to me. Very different, but right.
Apparently yes, because you are trying to get the speakers to “play the room” or “couple” with the room. I can see that making sense. But I agree, when I’m into the music my head is bobbing big time.
Tape measures, levels and lasers are all good tools to help get the speakers into a good starting position. I use the Digi-pas 1500XY which is good to 3 decimal places.
Last week I went to someone's home to integrate a pair of subwoofers with a pair of Magnapan 3.7i. He has them sitting on carpet while he waits on the much improved stand. The sound was very thin. Last night I went back over and this time I took my level and some shims. I set the level on the base of the Maggie's and the left was something like 0.108 back and the right was 0.135 back. I place the shims on the back between the base and the carpet and pushed them under until the level read 0.000 on both speakers. Sat back down and listened and it was so much better. The music gained a lot of body and most of the thin-ness was gone. This took me about 5 minutes. I am not saying this is the ideal rake angle, just that the speakers are at least vertical and matched.
I give this as an example as we are talking about detailed speaker setup. But when I go into a lot of people homes the speakers are way off. In most cases the owners aren't sure what to do to fix the problems they are hearing. And they don't have even the basic tools to measure where they are or simply aren't aware that they even should do this type of thing. When I was done the guy asked about the level and said he was going to get one. This really makes me happy. This guy now has some ideas on how to work with speakers and is going to get some tools so he can experiment on his own.
In the end it doesn't seem to really matter if one ear is a few mm higher or lower than the other. When everything is dialed in it just works.
When this thread comes up from time to time there always seem to be comments where people are concerned that to adjust speakers to a high level of accuracy the listeners head must have to be locked in a vice. It is a paradoxical that it is actually the opposite that is true. During the setup I do sit back in the listening chair, generally sit up and listen with my head fairly still. But I don't really try to lock it in a vice to do this. After the set up is complete I am free to move my head without feeling like things are shifting all over the place. The sound field is actually quite uniform.
Thanks to Tom to for pointing you toward the level. One nice feature of this level is that it has bluetooth capability. You can download the app on your phone and get the reading of the level. This is important as standing next to the speaker will alter the level of the floor. If the floor is pier and beam or a second story of a house, then there can be quite a lot of discrepancy in the reading. It is best to set the level on the speaker and take several steps back and see what the app says.
I am not trying to say that the speaker needs to be at any particular number. Whatever number of rake an azimuth the speaker ends up with is done by ear. But for example, if you are trying to match the right and left speaker and get them both level to 0.000 degrees the app is the way to go. Without the app, depending on the flexure of the floor where your speaker is sitting and where you are standing to read the level it can make a big difference. You might think you have them both dead level but in reality, when you step away, they are not.
Since @treitz3 brought up issues with the floor I will offer my thoughts.
The floor is a big problem if you are trying to push your system to top performance. The floor can also make it difficult to keep the speakers at top performance.
If my room was on pier and beam, I would be doing something to stabilize the floor. This could be as simple as pulling up the existing floor, adding more joists, putting down a layer of cement boar, then plywood and then the finished engineered wood flooring. This may sound complicated but even a DIY person could do this. A small construction crew could have it done in a couple days. And it would likely cost less than a lot of audiophiles spend on a power cable.
Solid wood is not a good way to go. It expands and contracts and swells with the changes in humidity with the seasons. Look up how much a 3" wide board expands going from 20% humidity in the winter to 60% humidity in the summer. Unless you want to re-do your speakers twice a year then avoid hardwood flooring.
I hate moving speakers on carpet and I really dislike how it deadens the sound. But at least if your carpet is over a concrete slab we can spike through the carpet and the floor will be stable.
Once you get the speaker set you can glue the spike cups to the floor. That way if your belly grows and bumps into the speaker it won't move. If you want to remove them then simply remove the glue. This may take some work but can be done.
The floor is a big problem if you are trying to push your system to top performance. The floor can also make it difficult to keep the speakers at top performance.
If my room was on pier and beam, I would be doing something to stabilize the floor. This could be as simple as pulling up the existing floor, adding more joists, putting down a layer of cement boar, then plywood and then the finished engineered wood flooring. This may sound complicated but even a DIY person could do this. A small construction crew could have it done in a couple days. And it would likely cost less than a lot of audiophiles spend on a power cable.
Solid wood is not a good way to go. It expands and contracts and swells with the changes in humidity with the seasons. Look up how much a 3" wide board expands going from 20% humidity in the winter to 60% humidity in the summer. Unless you want to re-do your speakers twice a year then avoid hardwood flooring.
I hate moving speakers on carpet and I really dislike how it deadens the sound. But at least if your carpet is over a concrete slab we can spike through the carpet and the floor will be stable.
Once you get the speaker set you can glue the spike cups to the floor. That way if your belly grows and bumps into the speaker it won't move. If you want to remove them then simply remove the glue. This may take some work but can be done.
That's one of the beautiful things about getting the speaker positions optimized. Whenever I readjust the speakers to their respective optimized position, the "sweet spot" seems to not be as important. I could only theorize as to why, and I will try my best below, but you can (well, I can) hear the change, even as I walk around the room or walk into the room. Part of that theory is that while my example initially only spoke of one rod, laser and mirror per speaker/ear (along with the additional drivers within said speaker), that is only one of many sounds that the ears hear. The direct sound, which is the single most important time/energy sound you want to hear.
Unless you have an anechoic room, you also have radiated/reflected energy that arrives at differing times. These come from walls, ceilings, floors and furniture/other items in the room (such as the gear, stands, etc.). If you look at the drawing below, it will give you some examples of some of those reflected sounds.
(Credit for the above screenshot taken from this Harbeth video - which can be seen below >>>
As aforementioned, my initial post was referring to only the direct sound being optimized. With all of the secondary reflections and their own energy/time arrivals, all of these are affected as well when you optimize the speaker setup. So, it's not just one sound you are optimizing, it is all of these sounds that affect the performance of the speaker/room interaction. Hypothetically speaking, if there were a rod, mirror and laser for each reflected sound, a minimal movement/adjustment would have quite the effect on all of those lasers and where they end up.
At least that's my theory, anyway...
When I spoke about the laser and that 1/2" rod and mirror, I was speaking as if the speaker location (not just the x and y axis) had already been optimized to the room and toed in correctly to achieve that perfect balance.
The tools I use that help me to achieve my own optimization are the following;
DigiPas DWL-1300XY 2 axis precision digital level
Takamine GM160 Pro self leveling 16 line laser
Bosch Professional GLM20 digital tape measure
Stanley Powerlock tape measure
Johnson 40-6184 laser level
Admittedly, I have a mixture of ways I do my initial setup. Whether it be taken from folks I have spoken with over the decades on how they do it, to ideas from the Sumiko setup, Harbeth, Genesis (WBF member Gary Koh who talks about 1/16" in this very video - https://youtu.be/ygCpGbcI8CM ), Martin Logan, Wilson and yes, even the book from WBF member Jim Smith - Which I highly recommend if you want to learn quite a bit more about initial placement than I am willing to type out. His book has already been mentioned in this thread and it is a gold mine for those who may be reading this thread and are interested in optimizing their own setup.
Years or maybe even decades ago, I was able to cobble together some notes that I ran across that condensed a lot of information into a somewhat short write up of some of the most important things when doing the initial setup. Maybe this will help some of you who may be reading this thread and wish to improve your own speaker setup. I know full well, I am preaching to the choir with many of you, so please forgive me going over some things that you already know about.
From Tom's notes said:
One of these days, I might go through and explain again how I set up my own speakers, NOT using the rooms walls as measuring points.
Tom
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