Detailed Speaker Setup and Optimization

[Amir]

I hope Ron takes some photos and uses his nice recording gear to make a video. Imagine a before and after video of these set up efforts.

Dear Peter,

I hope so, If you are interested to listen to Mayer system please let me know to arrange a meeting.
Mayer and David are friends and Mayer visited David this year.

 

[Amir]

While I’m still a bit skeptical of “1 mm makes a huge difference” claims, hiring someone who has accumulated experience from setting up hundreds of different systems is a bucket list item for me. It’s like hiring a super computer, but one with proprietary algorithms! That said, the Stirlings and Jims (and Todds!) of the world can only get a bad room sounding so good. So to make this worthwhile, I’ll need a different room. We’ve been looking at real estate for years and at least in our neck of the woods, that means finding a unicorn - unfinished basement with 9+ foot ceilings. An additional challenge is we like century homes. Hence the low ceiling in my current room. I did look into digging out the basement of our current home but it was cost-prohibitive, even for a crazed audiophile. And the sump pump would run all the time!

1mm does not make huge difference but less than 1mm is the final adjustment of this process.

I think thinking or imagination about this subject is not useful and everybody should just listen to properly speaker placement systems by Stirling .

Believe or not this is my summary about sound improvement :
Upgrading $1,000 audio system to $2,000,000 audio system = 100 score
Properly speaker placement by Stirling = 1000 score

 

[Amir]

If you read my “Audio Critique” topic I wrote about importance of speaker position there. For trusted amplifier review/comparison (amplifier A vs Amplifier B) I said if you change the amplifier then you should change the speaker position.

Audio Critique

I would like to share my idea about Right/Trusted Audio Critique in the High End Audio because Most Magazines need a better understanding of Audio Reviewing. I ask this question because me (when I was young) and my friends have spent many many times/efforts/money according to (and trusting)...

www.whatsbestforum.com

It means when Stirling Trayle place your speakers in perfect position then changing any components (like dac or power or cables or …) will change the equation and you need call Stirling to change the speaker position again. Every small changes will change the perfect speaker position.

 

[Tangram]

If you read my “Audio Critique” topic I wrote about importance of speaker position there. For trusted amplifier review/comparison (amplifier A vs Amplifier B) I said if you change the amplifier then you should change the speaker position.

Audio Critique

I would like to share my idea about Right/Trusted Audio Critique in the High End Audio because Most Magazines need a better understanding of Audio Reviewing. I ask this question because me (when I was young) and my friends have spent many many times/efforts/money according to (and trusting)...

www.whatsbestforum.com

It means when Stirling Trayle place your speakers in perfect position then changing any components (like dac or power or cables or …) will change the equation and you need call Stirling to change the speaker position again. Every small changes will change the perfect speaker position.

You live in an idealistic world Amir. Most people can’t fly in an expert every time they roll a tube.

 

[PeterA]

Dear Peter,

I hope so, If you are interested to listen to Mayer system please let me know to arrange a meeting.
Mayer and David are friends and Mayer visited David this year.

Thank you Amir. I do not get to LA very often, but I will keep it in mind and contact you. I appreciate it.

 

[Amir]

You live in an idealistic world Amir. Most people can’t fly in an expert every time they roll a tube.

Before speaker placement Stirling check all things and if you have used tubes you can change it before speaker setup. I think if you experience that sound you will do that and you never change your equipments every six month.

As I said before speaker placement does not just improve the sound, it hugly affects on your music listening experience.

 

[Blue58]

I adjust my speakers to 1mm using laser and manual measurements plus toe in and of course rake angle.
However, when I purchased a measurement mic I found out the speakers (not the drivers) were not time aligned.
After adjusting the distance of one speaker to time align the pair I heard a distinct improvement.

I’m sure Stirling also measures the room acoustics too.

 

[sbnx]

Yesterday Romy the Cat wrote about Stirling Trayle:


“A very rare but very strong recommendation.

Stirling Trayle and I exchange a few you messages. I sent him a link to DPoLS translation and he immediately identified some weaknesses of the article, very impressive. I find that what he does is exceptionally interesting and uniquely rare. I have a reputation do not patronize on recommend any business or services in audio but in this case I would like to make exception and provide my very strong recommendation to use Stirling Trayle while she is still able to operate. As I understand he is in his 60s and after he will be gone this knowledge, from epistemological perspective will be lost. I did suggest him to write a book, I do not think he will, and it is very unfortunate.”

Those who are curios and seek answers will find them.

 

[sbnx]

Let me try and add some clarity. Precise positioning within the room and aligning them will maximize the performance of that system. It will not turn a $1000 system into a $200,000 system. However, it is possible for a $200,000+ system to sound really bad and musically unsatisfying and a fully optimized system costing much less to be more musically engaging. Optimizing a system and precision speaker setup is the cheapest thing in audio. Bang for the buck is completely off the charts.

In the realm of small movements. If a pair of speakers are not in the right spot then moving one of them by 1mm will not make much, if any, difference. However, if you put a speaker on one of the few spots that actually work and massage the speaker more and more carefully into that position then move it off that spot by 1mm the difference in sound is profound. They system will go from having low frequency engagement with fast low frequency transient response to a blob of blur.

Once a system is pushed up onto the knife's edge of performance any perturbation in the system will cause it to lose some or a lot of the magic depending on the magnitude of the change. This includes changing cables or components. There was a whole discussion about this a couple years ago and is a contentious topic. I understand people reticence. But witness it in action and any non-belief will be rectified. This has been demonstrated in front of a room full of people on several occations. It is a most inconvenient truth.

This very much a reality. There are people who are on a path of system performance improvement and not simpy change for the sake of change. They have a goal and a destination in mind.They have their system optimized and listen for a while. When they are ready they make a purchase that is a substantial upgrade to their system. This could be a much better preamp or a loom of cables or a pair of world class subwoofers or whatever. The cost to have the system re-optimized is minimal compared with the cost of the upgrade. Most of these people aren't on forums.

 

[Amir]

I adjust my speakers to 1mm using laser and manual measurements plus toe in and of course rake angle.
However, when I purchased a measurement mic I found out the speakers (not the drivers) were not time aligned.
After adjusting the distance of one speaker to time align the pair I heard a distinct improvement.

I’m sure Stirling also measures the room acoustics too.

Adjusting two speakers together with 1mm precision and accurate time align just gives you stereo soundstage at just listener position.

What Stirling do is far from simple adjustments.

 

[Kingrex]

There's so many pages here. I started trying to go through them. I wasn't seeing anybody really discussing speaker set up. Is more waxing poetic over fine adjustments or necessary. I want to try and set up my speakers, but I feel a little at a loss as to what i'm looking for.

I made some larger adjustments in the past. I pulled them way out in the room and I pushed them back near the wall, fnding the areas that weren't right. Eventually, I found a spot that's realistically distanced from the back wall and side walls.

I'm roughly in jim's 83 percent spot with my listening position.
FWIW, I have open baffle speakers.

At where the speakers are and i'm sitting, i'm very much enjoying the music. I don't notice anything that would stand out and tell me it's not right. I have a little bit of tow in. I did that to help a little with the sound stage on. Currently, I feel I have a very solid center image that spreads fairly wide. I don't ever notice the sound coming out of the speaker unless it's a piece of music that very distinctly has a guitar in one speaker and a singer in the other.

I'm sort of at a loss of knowing what I would be looking for if I were to start moving the speakers.
Is it better separation of instruments in classical. Not that I notice any real congestion.

I am thinking of putting REW or some other program on my new Surface Laptop. I have a Uni 1 mic. See if I have any real issues. I don't notice any real suck outs. I just hear pleasant music.

 

[PeterA]

There's so many pages here. I started trying to go through them. I wasn't seeing anybody really discussing speaker set up. Is more waxing poetic over fine adjustments or necessary. I want to try and set up my speakers, but I feel a little at a loss as to what i'm looking for.

I made some larger adjustments in the past. I pulled them way out in the room and I pushed them back near the wall, fnding the areas that weren't right. Eventually, I found a spot that's realistically distanced from the back wall and side walls.

I'm roughly in jim's 83 percent spot with my listening position.
FWIW, I have open baffle speakers.

At where the speakers are and i'm sitting, i'm very much enjoying the music. I don't notice anything that would stand out and tell me it's not right. I have a little bit of tow in. I did that to help a little with the sound stage on. Currently, I feel I have a very solid center image that spreads fairly wide. I don't ever notice the sound coming out of the speaker unless it's a piece of music that very distinctly has a guitar in one speaker and a singer in the other.

I'm sort of at a loss of knowing what I would be looking for if I were to start moving the speakers.
Is it better separation of instruments in classical. Not that I notice any real congestion.

I am thinking of putting REW or some other program on my new Surface Laptop. I have a Uni 1 mic. See if I have any real issues. I don't notice any real suck outs. I just hear pleasant music.

I listen for balance, clarity, and the effortless launch of energy into the room. If I did not have corner horns, I would start with the speakers pointing straight ahead. Distance out from the front wall for balance of bass, and distance from side walls for tone and body/weight. Set up is easier if adding toe-in toward the listener, but I find better results with no toe-in, at least with the cone speakers I have set up.

 

[sbo6]

Hello Todd,

me and Mayer had long conversation about the sound. He believes no one should pay even $1 before proper speaker setup. The real game changer is speaker placement not spending million dollars for high end equipments.
He told me Stirling adjusted his speakers with less than 1mm and the sound is magnificent.

I am in Iran so I can not travel to USA but Ron Resnick will visit my friend so Ron can describe his experience about the sound.

Thanks
Amir

I'm curious what's the value - add equation - Does this mean a, say $10,000 system set up at the right and exact mm placement will sound better than a $200,000 system that's off by a mm? If so, Stirling is waaay underpaid. ;-)

 

[PeterA]

I think it is about approaching the potential of a given system in a given room. If the set up is not right, then that potential is never realized. The value is dependent on the degree of improvement the listener experiences when playing his favorite music, and it is likely different for everyone.

 

[Kingrex]

What's the best software out there to run sweeps and pink noise to get an understanding of what the room is doing?

I listen for balance, clarity, and the effortless launch of energy into the room. If I did not have corner horns, I would start with the speakers pointing straight ahead. Distance out from the front wall for balance of bass, and distance from side walls for tone and body/weight. Set up is easier if adding toe-in toward the listener, but I find better results with no toe-in, at least with the cone speakers I have set up.

This still doesn't mean much to me? My setup sounds balanced and clean.
What does effortless launch mean. I'm not asking for you to try and explain it. It's very apparent when you change amps or speakers. I haven't really noticed it as something that's apparent when I move speakers. When I move speakers, I hear the base change. I hear the soundstage change. Especially the center image. And I hear some definition or separation of instruments, but that is subtle.

Maybe I need to read Jim's book again From what I remember, the book seemed more about leveling your speakers . And some of the larger positioning influences. It's been a long time and I have to buy it again because I lost it. I don't remember Jim's book being about minute changes.

 

[treitz3]

Parts of it get into minute changes. Todd takes those steps and pushes it to the limit. Yes, there is an audible difference between .01". I wouldn't really have put much credence into that if I hadn't adjusted my own speakers to this degree and heard the change. Now I know when something is off, the speakers have moved. It doesn't take much.

Having the right tools for a proper setup is key.

Tom

 

[Synaxis]

Parts of it get into minute changes. Todd takes those steps and pushes it to the limit. Yes, there is an audible difference between .01". I wouldn't really have put much credence into that if I hadn't adjusted my own speakers to this degree and heard the change. Now I know when something is off, the speakers have moved. It doesn't take much.

Having the right tools for a proper setup is key.

Tom

You're right, Tom.

I bought a Stabilia digital level to adjust the angle on my speakers (they are supposed to be leaning back).

If I didn't experience it for myself, I would have found it hard to believe. But when you have them set up right with the right gear - the smallest changes are clearly audible.

The difference between 4.40 degrees and 4.50 degrees is noticeable and too much. For me 4.45 degrees is just right.

Too low and they sound lifeless and dull, too high and they are bright. Just right and it's....well...just right.

Same with left to right. I can tell when they are off 1/2 of a degree.

 

[PeterA]

What's the best software out there to run sweeps and pink noise to get an understanding of what the room is doing?


This still doesn't mean much to me? My setup sounds balanced and clean.
What does effortless launch mean. I'm not asking for you to try and explain it. It's very apparent when you change amps or speakers. I haven't really noticed it as something that's apparent when I move speakers. When I move speakers, I hear the base change. I hear the soundstage change. Especially the center image. And I hear some definition or separation of instruments, but that is subtle.

Maybe I need to read Jim's book again From what I remember, the book seemed more about leveling your speakers . And some of the larger positioning influences. It's been a long time and I have to buy it again because I lost it. I don't remember Jim's book being about minute changes.

Rex, this is my approach. You may have different values.

Balance is tonal balance and relative energy from the instruments in different locations on the sound stage. Does it sound like what you hear live? Does it vary from recording to recording? Is it convincing?

Clarity is focus of the sound without blurring and how clean the tone is without interference from the room. Ease and dynamics. Effortlessness. How much information do you hear from the recording and is it presented in a convincing way?

Energy is what the instruments produce and how it is presented by the system from the speakers into the room. Is it developing and filling the space or is it beaming at you? Do instruments and voices sound harsh, hard, or fatiguing?

It took me a long time to not focus on detail and image outlines or bass slam as things to listen for. I think it varies from listener to listener. When you listen to live music with your eyes closed, what do you experience? Do you want that experience in your listening room or something else? You have to decide what the target is, the type of presentation you want in the room at your listening seat or at different listening seats. I want good sound around the room.

You have to identify the criteria important to you and then ask yourself every time you make a change in speaker position whether or not you get closer to your target. The key is to know where you want to end up.

 

[Salectric]

Here’s my problem with the single millimeter discussion: Every time I move my speakers, regardless of how much, there is a settling time while the feet adjust to the new position. From experience, I know the bass seems fuller and stronger right after I move the speakers but the next morning the bass will be back to how it was before the move. Now my floor is carpeted so that may affect the settling in changes but I suspect all speakers and all floors have a settling-in time to some extent.

Putting aside that issue, there’s no question that very small changes in speaker positioning can produce major changes in sound quality. The challenge is deciding which position sounds “best.” I have limited patience when it comes to such things. Listening to the same piece of music over and over while I shove the speakers around is not my idea of fun. Years ago I spent an entire day moving CLS panels all around the room to find the magical spot, and after all that work I gave up and just moved them back to where I started!

 

[Kingrex]

Rex, this is my approach. You may have different values.

Balance is tonal balance and relative energy from the instruments in different locations on the sound stage. Does it sound like what you hear live? Does it vary from recording to recording? Is it convincing?

Clarity is focus of the sound without blurring and how clean the tone is without interference from the room. Ease and dynamics. Effortlessness. How much information do you hear from the recording and is it presented in a convincing way?

Energy is what the instruments produce and how it is presented by the system from the speakers into the room. Is it developing and filling the space or is it beaming at you? Do instruments and voices sound harsh, hard, or fatiguing?

It took me a long time to not focus on detail and image outlines or bass slam as things to listen for. I think it varies from listener to listener. When you listen to live music with your eyes closed, what do you experience? Do you want that experience in your listening room or something else? You have to decide what the target is, the type of presentation you want in the room at your listening seat or at different listening seats. I want good sound around the room.

You have to identify the criteria important to you and then ask yourself every time you make a change in speaker position whether or not you get closer to your target. The key is to know where you want to end up.

It sounds like you're defining speaker and amplifier performance parameters. Not speaker set up.