The performance is what you want to hear with proper set up. I was trying to be more specific and answer your question. Good luck with setting up your new system in your new room. Set up is about optimizing the potential of your system.
Detailed Speaker Setup and Optimization
- Thread starter sbnx
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The performance is what you want to hear with proper set up. I was trying to be more specific and answer your question. Good luck with setting up your new system in your new room. Set up is about optimizing the potential of your system.
I read what you wrote again. Most of it sounds like you're trying to convince someone to buy horn speakers. I get clarity and I get beaming. Words like natural, convincing, sounds like live. I don't see that is something that comes from proper setup. Or from fine tuning.
I don't feel my speakers beam. But I do believe I could get more clarity.
Is clarity what others are chasing as you all talk about 1/100 inch adjustment. What are you looking for?
IME small movements do make a difference, but one mm or a thousandth of an inch (a human hair thickness)? I'd wager good money in an ABX test that there's no statistical correlation.
Rex, when you declare some improvement from your electric supply work, do you have a target for the sound you’re looking for or some way of judging progress? Some people know it when they hear it and keep moving speakers around, hoping to find it and others have a very specific target and work methodically towards reaching it.
What I notice is an effortlessness in the sound. Purity. Like everything is in focus, from frequencies, to imaging, to balance.....the whole shebang. When something seems to have drifted, the very first thing I check are my speakers. I spend time to correct them and no further adjustments are necessary, unless a tube is acting up or other issue reared it's ugly head (like a loose connection). 95% of the time, the speakers drifting off a tad bit was the cause.
It will be nice to go from a wood joist supported floor to a concrete slab in the new room, as the likelihood of this happening will greatly wane.
Tom
It will be nice to go from a wood joist supported floor to a concrete slab in the new room, as the likelihood of this happening will greatly wane.
Tom
Same here Tom.
When I had my old Magico speakers, one of the things I listen for was Johnny Hartman‘s voice having the right weight and mass, the way the sound of his voice energize the room, and the degree of immediacy and presence. With piano or drum, the completeness of the note from initial attack to final decay.
Interestingly, the exact position of my corner horns in the front corners of the room makes a big difference also. My house is 230 years old and nothing is completely square or level. I just fiddled very slightly with their angle using my laser half an hour ago. Now as I dictate this into my phone with the built-in microphone while I have music playing, the singer’s words are transcribed onto this message, so I have to turn off the microphone. This transcription was not as successful before which means the phone can now better pick up the clearer voice over my system and transcribe the words to this post.
I know, based upon previous posts you have made on this subject, that you are skeptical. If not, then you sway more toward disbelieving this altogether. Minimal adjustments you are okay with making a difference and you seem to accept that wholeheartedly.
Please allow me to clarify something here. I have speakers that are 6 and a half feet tall. The centers of the furthest drivers are almost 5 feet apart from one another. Any small adjustment made at the spikes, translate into much bigger movements (side to side, as well as front to back). Especially at the top of the speaker.
This translates into timing issues and in my case, a massive change in where a channel's sound(s) are coming from. This, from only one speaker. Now, add both.
Let's just say (for example) that the Right speaker had drifted off .07" toward me and .11" to the right. While at the same time, the Left speaker had drifted off .12" away from me and to the left by .06". So, the system now starts off skewed and not optimal, right?
That skewed sound from both channel's now has to travel all of the way across the room. In my case, that is roughly 10.5' away from my ears. One of the channel's is skewed down and to the right, while the other is skewed up and to the left. Over the course of that 10.5' of travel, that becomes (while still small) a considerable drift of timing when things hit the room, walls and my ears.
What I am referring too when making such minuscule adjustments in speaker positioning is taking a certified and calibrated Digi-Pas 2-axis professional digital level and placing it on top of my speaker. I then use the readings on that to align the speakers back to a 0.00 x and y axis.
With the speakers already in place from the initial setup, this puts the tweeters and midrange drivers perfectly positioned for the sound to arrive at the same time/place (my ears). Same for the lower registers drivers at the top and bottom of the mains.
This is what makes everything snap into focus. Just that tiny measurement at the bottom of the speakers may not amount to much, but by the time that very minor adjustment hits my ears? That has a lot of travel to go...and I want to assure that what I am used to hearing gets to those ears at the same time, without any skewing or imbalance.
A good (well, at the moment, I think it's good) way to think about this would be to take a 1/2" thick metal rod (to replace your speakers for a moment) and place a mirror that reflects a laser, perfectly straight up from the floor to the middle of the mirror. Angle that mirror that is located at the tweeter height and direct the mirror to now point directly to your ear. R channel to your right ear, L channel to your L ear.
Now, let's then say that the laser is fixed. You can't move the laser at all, no matter what. It points directly at the middle of that mirror(s) that point directly to the respective channel/ear.
Now, tap that 1/2" thick rod (mirror still attached to it and angled toward your ear) back and to to one side for your R channel with a sledgehammer. You will notice two things. The laser is no longer pointed at the dead center of that mirror, and the laser is no longer pointed at your ear either. In fact, the measurement of the center of the mirror may not look like much but where the laser was pointed at your ear? It's way off now.
Now move over to your L channel and do the exact opposite to that rod. Hit that rod toward you and the opposite way you hit the R rod. The harder you strike that rod, the worse the skew becomes.
Take a look at now, at this point, to where both lasers are pointing. They are nowhere near your ears. One could be off on the wall, 2" away and down quite a bit from your ear and the other one for the other channel may be located somewhere on your forehead. This is audible.
Now, that is only the skew with one driver. Multiply that with 5 drivers per channel (at least in my case) that are up to 5' apart top to bottom. That is severe skewing of the sound and timing of everything. Yes, a very minute adjustment but a large one by the time the sound hits your ears.
I hope that made sense and it helps you to understand how such a minuscule adjustment could possibly make such a profound difference to the end result as to what hits your ears.
The better and more pure/resolving your system is, the better your lower registers are tuned to the room (without overloading it) the more profound this change is....or can be.
Tom
How much does your floor move? Is there a problem with your floor and / or joists?
No issues with the floor joists, other than the sheer amount of weight put on them. The system weighed in at over 1,584 lbs last time I added everything up. I have to be somewhere around or over 1730 pounds now, with some of the recent additions. That's why the 250lb TT is still crated up in the shop. I would need to support the floor joists at that point, as the system would weigh in as much as a fully loaded queen sized waterbed at this point.
I am actually thinking about doing some supports before I even build the new room out in the shop. That's a lot of weight for only a 26SF footprint.
Seasonal changes and humidity fluctuations don't help.
Tom
I am actually thinking about doing some supports before I even build the new room out in the shop. That's a lot of weight for only a 26SF footprint.
Seasonal changes and humidity fluctuations don't help.
Tom
...I think his point was: how do dialed-in speakers get out of whack if they're so heavy?
The quad diffusors I use have chambers ranging from 1" to 9" deep. That is because you need that order of differentiation among the chambers to create various time delays.
A couple of points:
--We are talking about waves traveling at the speed of sound.
--We are talking about waves, pulsing out at various frequencies and times, based on the music. Different frequencies and amplitudes. They're all over the place. In my view, folks sometimes simplify these models based on the waves being a discreet, narrow beam of sound.
I can see how small changes in any axis could cause a change at the receiving end (ear) depending on the size of the wave, and the distance traveled. It's just how small a change would be audible, right?
I would not think the order of minuscule change some are describing would be audible in most cases. Perhaps angling very tall speakers would be most meaningful, over larger distances. I suppose one caveat could be such a change that caused waves to hit a different surface could easily make a difference (soft vs. hard).
Moreover, I don't think using Mr. Trayle or someone else who comes to tweak a system is de facto proof if he is adjusting speakers, cleaning contacts, moving gear, etc. I imagine such changes would very well make a difference, but would the same difference (improvement) be garnered if he *only* adjusted the speakers a wee bit? Maybe?
BTW: it's a great discussion to have here. Much better than a lot of the hooey in some threads. Agree or not, it's a good investigation, IMO. Cheers, fellas.
The quad diffusors I use have chambers ranging from 1" to 9" deep. That is because you need that order of differentiation among the chambers to create various time delays.
A couple of points:
--We are talking about waves traveling at the speed of sound.
--We are talking about waves, pulsing out at various frequencies and times, based on the music. Different frequencies and amplitudes. They're all over the place. In my view, folks sometimes simplify these models based on the waves being a discreet, narrow beam of sound.
I can see how small changes in any axis could cause a change at the receiving end (ear) depending on the size of the wave, and the distance traveled. It's just how small a change would be audible, right?
I would not think the order of minuscule change some are describing would be audible in most cases. Perhaps angling very tall speakers would be most meaningful, over larger distances. I suppose one caveat could be such a change that caused waves to hit a different surface could easily make a difference (soft vs. hard).
Moreover, I don't think using Mr. Trayle or someone else who comes to tweak a system is de facto proof if he is adjusting speakers, cleaning contacts, moving gear, etc. I imagine such changes would very well make a difference, but would the same difference (improvement) be garnered if he *only* adjusted the speakers a wee bit? Maybe?
BTW: it's a great discussion to have here. Much better than a lot of the hooey in some threads. Agree or not, it's a good investigation, IMO. Cheers, fellas.
Well, admittedly....sometimes I will go back behind the mains to make a cable swap, check a connection or setting or maybe even make a small adjustment on something. While my speakers weigh in at 250 pounds a pop, my belly sometimes rubs up against it harder than anticipated.
Then there are those on wood joists and a subfloor. The temp and humidity can cause shifting. Those with sharp spikes, may actually start to dig into the subfloor, unless they have spike footers. Lots of people in a room that is supported by joists can possibly shift things due to load change beyond the dead weight.
Playing music constantly with multiple drivers thumping away for hours on end, could cause spikes to shift or rotate over time, if not locked down.....sometimes, even if they were but not quite tight enough.
Those with carpet, the spikes may shift or dig in more after time or play.
Or one may just go near the speaker(s) to make a change and inadvertently knock the speaker with their shoulder, arm, or foot/feet. Sometimes it doesn't take much.
Those in earthquake zones....well, this is more than just a floor shifting and may shift things while you aren't even home to notice.
Tom
Then there are those on wood joists and a subfloor. The temp and humidity can cause shifting. Those with sharp spikes, may actually start to dig into the subfloor, unless they have spike footers. Lots of people in a room that is supported by joists can possibly shift things due to load change beyond the dead weight.
Playing music constantly with multiple drivers thumping away for hours on end, could cause spikes to shift or rotate over time, if not locked down.....sometimes, even if they were but not quite tight enough.
Those with carpet, the spikes may shift or dig in more after time or play.
Or one may just go near the speaker(s) to make a change and inadvertently knock the speaker with their shoulder, arm, or foot/feet. Sometimes it doesn't take much.
Those in earthquake zones....well, this is more than just a floor shifting and may shift things while you aren't even home to notice.
Tom
And you think the very slight difference in speaker angle accounts for the difference in transcription ability of the voice to text function on your smart phone?
Aren 't your corner horns meant to be placed flush in the corner against the walls to get some sort of box idea to prevent acoustic short cut , iow mprove bass?
Are they placed above the plinth flush against the walls?
There is absolutely no relation between good speaker position and DPOLS experience
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Rex, you do not know about dpols, please view Romy the Cat video about DPOLS
The problem is very very very few audiophiles listened to a speaker in DPOLS setup so I can not convince them what happen when Stirling Trayle put speakers in DPOLS.
Again again again Please view Romy the Cat video :
Again again again Please view Romy the Cat video :
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