SETs and Horns

[morricab]

3. deep bass is poor with SET (and most horns that don't have active bass). i also hear too much 2nd harmonic that distracts my listening - i close my eyes and it feels like distortion is leaping out at me, singers dripping in it in front of me. i much prefer push/pull amps which are more dynamic with better bass.

5. many horns have frequency anomaly (horn coloration, cupped hands) and integration woes. you pick your poison to get that efficiency and jump factor. also, they can be fatiguing and have spatial woes. but i will say horns as a speaker class are just as different as dynamic drivers - subsets of each have strengths and weaknesses. for instance, I don't hear horn coloration on JBL or AGs.

i don't think i would own horns unless i was fully ok with tube amps. SS has never sounded right on them and I think horns need tube decay to make the "whole note" sound correct. otherwise, too much leading edge.

horns will always be a niche business in audio. really only AG is a worldwide, Wilson type manufacturer over the past 20 years. Klipsch i guess is making a comeback with its more value priced Heritage line. i think people who only believe in SET amps will gravitate to them out of necessity, but if you don't require that than its not worth the drawbacks.

3. Really, really, really depends on the SET and the quality and size of the output iron and the delivery from the power supply.
5. True but not all. Mine measure quite well in-room. The best in-room frequency responses I got though were from my Acoustats...they were pretty scary good at some things. It's interesting you didn't hear colorations with AGs (I actually do with some models and not with others in their lineup) as they have relatively wonky Frequency response measurements...just goes to show that you don't hear just like an oscilloscope.

I would argue the drawbacks of other speakers are what limit their ability to sound realistic...that to me is the ultimate drawback.

 

[morricab]

3. deep bass is poor with SET (and most horns that don't have active bass). i also hear too much 2nd harmonic that distracts my listening - i close my eyes and it feels like distortion is leaping out at me, singers dripping in it in front of me. i much prefer push/pull amps which are more dynamic with better bass.

5. many horns have frequency anomaly (horn coloration, cupped hands) and integration woes. you pick your poison to get that efficiency and jump factor. also, they can be fatiguing and have spatial woes. but i will say horns as a speaker class are just as different as dynamic drivers - subsets of each have strengths and weaknesses. for instance, I don't hear horn coloration on JBL or AGs.

i don't think i would own horns unless i was fully ok with tube amps. SS has never sounded right on them and I think horns need tube decay to make the "whole note" sound correct. otherwise, too much leading edge.

horns will always be a niche business in audio. really only AG is a worldwide, Wilson type manufacturer over the past 20 years. Klipsch i guess is making a comeback with its more value priced Heritage line. i think people who only believe in SET amps will gravitate to them out of necessity, but if you don't require that than its not worth the drawbacks.

One other point regarding SET and horn bass. If you use a real horn bass that isn't active a SS amp will make the bass completely disappear. They are way too damped to work with something that is already highly damped. You need an amp with high output impedance or there will be hardly any bass.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Try big SS amps on 100+dB horns and see how you like the sound quality...most will move quickly back to SET...

distortions k2 perceives the human ear as more pleasant than k3 perceives as sterile hard.
the best way to produce little distortion is to run pushpull pentode amps in triode mode. you lose a lot of watts but you gain attenuation factor and significantly less distortion below 0.5%
if you don't need full power for your speaker, the better way is my opinion.

 

[Ron Resnick]

IMHO each of these items should be a



Ron,

Admitting they do not suffer from "colorations" as you say, what should be the real reason for, in your opinion, most modern horns sounding "a bit aggressive-sounding and fatiguing"?

I don't know. Maybe the material of the horn?

I have a feeling I would not find Bill's horns fatiguing. The Avaton was not fatiguing to me. So maybe it is horns which are not made out if wood?

 

[morricab]

distortions k2 perceives the human ear as more pleasant than k3 perceives as sterile hard.
the best way to produce little distortion is to run pushpull pentode amps in triode mode. you lose a lot of watts but you gain attenuation factor and significantly less distortion below 0.5%
if you don't need full power for your speaker, the better way is my opinion.

I have had such amps (just sold an EL84 Class A PP with 5 watts in triode) and strongly prefer the sonic quality of my SETs. My AC Genus has 0.08% 2nd and 0.02% 3rd at 1 watt...and sounds very pure.

 

[morricab]

I don't know. Maybe the material of the horn?

I have a feeling I would not find Bill's horns fatiguing. The Avaton was not fatiguing to me. So maybe it is horns which are not made out if wood?

Avaton has a big metal midrange horn...the tweeter is wooden though... I am still baffled as to why you liked this speaker...it sounded quite disjointed to me and my friends. The Anima has a beautiful big wood horn and with tubes sounds superb (they had SS one year and it was too sharp sounding). I think you would like Odeon horns...all wood .

 

[DasguteOhr]

I have had such amps (just sold an EL84 Class A PP with 5 watts in triode) and strongly prefer the sonic quality of my SETs. My AC Genus has 0.08% 2nd and 0.02% 3rd at 1 watt...and sounds very pure.

Yes. very clean sound with a lot of detail.
She ist made for NF Audioamp,
I understand you I like SET amplifiers even with the right speakers.

 

[morricab]

Yes. very clean sound with a lot of detail.
She ist made for NF Audioamp,
I understand you I like SET amplifiers even with the right speakers.

NF audioamp?

 

[DasguteOhr]

NF audioamp?

EL 84 developed only for audio in german (niederfrequenz NF)

 

[cjfrbw]

Aries Cerat Genus @ 150 pounds? I'm glad they decided to make a compact.

 

[cjfrbw]

The only single ended Wavac transmitting tube amplifier I have ever seen measurements for was the $360K 150 watt 833 tubed model reviewed by Michael Fremer in Stereophile several years ago.

It could barely make 1 percent distortion at one or two watts, and made its spec distortion above 100 watts at something like 15 percent distortion.

When Nobu Shishido was alive, somebody queried about the power distortions. He was funny and he said his amplifiers were 1 watt amplifiers, and the consumer chose the power spec according to how much overhead was required for the speakers. He didn't think the distortion spec above one watt mattered because is was all 'overhead'.

 

[Folsom]

The JBL waveguide doesnt provide any gain for the driver? I agree it is not reallya horn speaker although some would say it is because the horn covers a substantial range.

It does, but not over as wide of a spectrum as other horns. It only needs a few dbs when approaching the crossover point to make it workable to loud levels.

 

[jeff1225]

Avaton has a big metal midrange horn...the tweeter is wooden though... I am still baffled as to why you liked this speaker...it sounded quite disjointed to me and my friends. The Anima has a beautiful big wood horn and with tubes sounds superb (they had SS one year and it was too sharp sounding). I think you would like Odeon horns...all wood .

Brad,
Did you hear the same horns at the same show as Ron?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Avaton has a big metal midrange horn...the tweeter is wooden though... I am still baffled as to why you liked this speaker...it sounded quite disjointed to me and my friends. The Anima has a beautiful big wood horn and with tubes sounds superb (they had SS one year and it was too sharp sounding). I think you would like Odeon horns...all wood .

“I was listening with David Chesky, to a recording made by David Chesky, of a piano played by David Chesky; and we were both looking at each other, shaking our heads. When it was over, we both agreed, this was closest any loudspeaker ever got to reproducing the density and presence of a real piano. I left the room in tears from the experience.”

Herb Reichert of Stereophile

This is substantially what I heard, too. That piano is one of my three reference piano reproductions I try to remember.

I have heard the Anima three times (but each time at an audio show), and each time it didn't do anything for me.

The Odeon Carnegie looks interesting. But I like Bill's better!

 

[cjfrbw]

Even a humble Klipsch Heresy speaker renders piano tones in a very life like manner compared to any number of dynamic or planar speakers. The strike and the percussion wave, or its simulacrum, were one of the things that impressed me when I owned the speakers.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

I believe the more power available the better the sound no matter how efficient the speakers are.I use 105 dB efficient horns and a 450 watt amplifier. When I wanna turn it up for a minute or so there’s power on hand and it’s surprising how much power you end up using.

 

[morricab]

“I was listening with David Chesky, to a recording made by David Chesky, of a piano played by David Chesky; and we were both looking at each other, shaking our heads. When it was over, we both agreed, this was closest any loudspeaker ever got to reproducing the density and presence of a real piano. I left the room in tears from the experience.”

Herb Reichert of Stereophile

This is substantially what I heard, too. That piano is one of my three reference piano reproductions I try to remember.

I have heard the Anima three times (but each time an an audio show), and each time it didn't do anything for me.

The Odeon Carnegie looks interesting. But I like Bill's better!

I hope to hear the Carnegie soon. A friend of mine is thinking of upgrading his current Odeons (No. 38/2) with the new technology of the current Odeon lineup. Before he does, we discussed driving to Odeon's factory and hearing the new tech.

All I can say is that having heard them now at Munich a couple of times, I found the Anima to sound more coherent by far...I am a big stickler for coherence. Of course If I had unlimited funds I would own either the big Aries Cerat horns (Contendo Reference) or Living Voice Vox Olympian/Elyssian systems. I guess I would give a big Cessaro a fair hearing but I am not too confident in them based on what I have heard so far.

 

[morricab]

Brad,
Did you hear the same horns at the same show as Ron?

I think so. I heard them in Munich High End two years in a row. I am not sure where else he could have heard them.

 

[morricab]

Aries Cerat Genus @ 150 pounds? I'm glad they decided to make a compact.

Diana integrated is 250 lbs... . That is 10 lbs per watt! And oh what watts they are...

 

[morricab]

The only single ended Wavac transmitting tube amplifier I have ever seen measurements for was the $360K 150 watt 833 tubed model reviewed by Michael Fremer in Stereophile several years ago.

It could barely make 1 percent distortion at one or two watts, and made its spec distortion above 100 watts at something like 15 percent distortion.

When Nobu Shishido was alive, somebody queried about the power distortions. He was funny and he said his amplifiers were 1 watt amplifiers, and the consumer chose the power spec according to how much overhead was required for the speakers. He didn't think the distortion spec above one watt mattered because is was all 'overhead'.

Good philosophy...I still remember hearing the WAVAC HE-805 at a show at London Heathrow back in 2006...that really blew me away with how incredible it sounded.