Sharing a few system videos from last night‘s listening session

[Alrainbow]

from what I have been told and tried , a cross over is a very difficult path. but if you know how to test and listen you can get to videos above sound.
when I play videos I have a few things to listen for
1- stage while I cant hear the size I can hear scale And stage position.
what I mean is if the video starts out at a certain loudness of the players and when it gets louder dulls or moves this is bad sign to me.
the above videos remain solid this alone is a tough deal to keep.
2- scale while stage is a must to be stable scale to me is the music flow sounds as one. on lesser systems as sounds get complex or sounds are rapidly changing if things get muddy or tone varies
This is also a sign of things not up to the task.
Carlos track of the cure was to me a wow.
I felt and this is my old ears I could hear the mixing of channels as members came on.

At axpona last year Elliot’s room had a sound that no matter what he played all remained solid and on some tracks I asked for I felt his system was playing way beyond the tracks.
What I mean is I could hear the limit of the tracks as if in the studio.
now having said this I think it’s unfair to judge anyone’s system soly on a video.
most here spend crazy money on this game and
Just one comment great or bad is not fair.
but I will always love others videos to be Shared

 

[Alrainbow]

Mehta

Below are Klemperer

Kedar your videos are amazing love them. And these while each has its own tone of sorts all are rock solid

 

[bonzo75]

Kedar your videos are amazing love them.

Tale of two Al’s

 

[Kingrex]

I get where on a level, you can get a perception of what video sounds better than others. Video can be mixed post production. But even not doing as such, I agree some video sound better than others. Could be the phone, camera, external mic. Lots of influences on what gets recoreded.

If you were to go to many many systems and record them on your phone and listen, over time you could develop a sense what a system is voicing like by a phone recording using the exact phone you have with the exact recording technique. Placement, holder, zoom, model phone etc.
But, I think this notion you are showing off how good your stereo sounds to others via a phone has no merit unless the viewer has gone through the process of training their ears to many systems recorded on the same phone the poster has. And even then, its only a, OK, it seems foundationally sound. But being in the actual room might surprise you what you actually sense.

If someone starts a thread like Carlos here to share video, have at it. But dragging the idea a phone recording of a stereo into someone elses thread is a necessity is abusive and rude. Ron brought it on himself on the latest Rhapsody thread. But a thread that never had a video of the system should never have a request to hear one.

 

[bonzo75]

I get where on a level, you can get a perception of what video sounds better than others. Video can be mixed post production. But even not doing as such, I agree some video sound better than others. Could be the phone, camera, external mic. Lots of influences on what gets recoreded.

If you were to go to many many systems and record them on your phone and listen, over time you could develop a sense what a system is voicing like by a phone recording using the exact phone you have with the exact recording technique. Placement, holder, zoom, model phone etc.
But, I think this notion you are showing off how good your stereo sounds to others via a phone has no merit unless the viewer has gone through the process of training their ears to many systems recorded on the same phone the poster has. And even then, its only a, OK, it seems foundationally sound. But being in the actual room might surprise you what you actually sense.

If someone starts a thread like Carlos here to share video, have at it. But dragging the idea a phone recording of a stereo into someone elses thread is a necessity is abusive and rude. Ron brought it on himself on the latest Rhapsody thread. But a thread that never had a video of the system should never have a request to hear one.

this is no different from whether a person in room who hears your system has listened to multiple systems and auditions well or has just randomly walked in to play a girl on a guitar track.

no one is saying you have to rank videos in singular order, but they can be ranked in groups. The top 5 - 10 systems I have heard sound that way on my videos, and the bad ones sound crap on videos. Do my top 2 both sound better than the third on video? Maybe not, but at that point they are all good enough to audition.


And mostly when my friends and I exchange compares on WhatsApp, analysis is spot on.

A person shouldn’t buy a system based on video, but should surely audition it if it sounds good, and videos are good enough to reject.,

 

[Carlos269]

I guess I see that. My Audion had no bass or high freq.with the original output transformers. I replaced them and have way better bass. The highs are still limited.

I only question why designers would not use them more if they were superior.

In addition to being application specific, in other words:

because their usefulness would be limited with other speakers they were not designed for

The transformer crossovers’s cost and weight are several order of magnitude higher than traditional RLC crossovers. For instance my Finemet transformer crossovers are close to 50lbs each. And their cost is substantially higher than what you will find in the crossovers of most of, if not all, the “über” commercial speakers.

 

[Alrainbow]

I get where on a level, you can get a perception of what video sounds better than others. Video can be mixed post production. But even not doing as such, I agree some video sound better than others. Could be the phone, camera, external mic. Lots of influences on what gets recoreded.

If you were to go to many many systems and record them on your phone and listen, over time you could develop a sense what a system is voicing like by a phone recording using the exact phone you have with the exact recording technique. Placement, holder, zoom, model phone etc.
But, I think this notion you are showing off how good your stereo sounds to others via a phone has no merit unless the viewer has gone through the process of training their ears to many systems recorded on the same phone the poster has. And even then, its only a, OK, it seems foundationally sound. But being in the actual room might surprise you what you actually sense.

If someone starts a thread like Carlos here to share video, have at it. But dragging the idea a phone recording of a stereo into someone elses thread is a necessity is abusive and rude. Ron brought it on himself on the latest Rhapsody thread. But a thread that never had a video of the system should never have a request to hear one.

That is a thread we all need. I am part a what’s app private chat we always post videos. Yea we throw rocks at each other but we also learn. one bud on there was a speaker maker. the stuff I’ve learned from him alone. Sound is not always as we expect and perception is the big variable. I liked hyper detailed sound up front. some don’t either way I’m not the average listener nor a correct listener.

 

[Carlos269]

I get where on a level, you can get a perception of what video sounds better than others. Video can be mixed post production. But even not doing as such, I agree some video sound better than others. Could be the phone, camera, external mic. Lots of influences on what gets recoreded.

If you were to go to many many systems and record them on your phone and listen, over time you could develop a sense what a system is voicing like by a phone recording using the exact phone you have with the exact recording technique. Placement, holder, zoom, model phone etc.
But, I think this notion you are showing off how good your stereo sounds to others via a phone has no merit unless the viewer has gone through the process of training their ears to many systems recorded on the same phone the poster has. And even then, its only a, OK, it seems foundationally sound. But being in the actual room might surprise you what you actually sense.

If someone starts a thread like Carlos here to share video, have at it. But dragging the idea a phone recording of a stereo into someone elses thread is a necessity is abusive and rude. Ron brought it on himself on the latest Rhapsody thread. But a thread that never had a video of the system should never have a request to hear one.

Instead of being stubborn, why don’t you try to learn from those with a proven track record? My great systems do not sound the way that they do by accident or by chance. I have been at this for over 35 years and have studied and learned at every and all opportunities.

This may come as a surprise to you and Al and the rest of the video deniers, but one of the tools that I use, for the last few years, with great success for fine tuning my systems is system videos for comparative analysis. Through comparative analysis I have been able to identify and address deficiencies. You and others can discount the value and usefulness of system videos but they are a great tool.

I use everything to my advantage and it is not by luck that my systems sound the way they do. Here is another one of my systems: different room, totally different speakers & electronics…… same great results:

To me is all about learning, succeeding and being the best. I’m a fierce competitor and look to use anything and everything that gives me an edge in whatever I’m doing and set my mind to.

You can stay in your box, like Al. M, about system videos…….or try to figure out what those that are hardcore about this hobby are doing to get the sound they are getting out of their system. I certainly will not leave any stone unturned out of pride, stubbornness, or lack of understanding.

 

[Kingrex]

Carlos and Bonzo. I hear you. I am not saying you can not get a good idea of how a system might voice through a video. What I am saying is people like Bonzo and a few others have traveled extensively, listened, recorded and learned what to listen for. There is something like 20,000 prople that traffic WBF. I doubt 1% of those people have the experience you have with video compare and analysis. It may be a usefull tool to a few people. I don't see it meaning much to the masses. So trying to drag some other thread about a system into a send you a video of the room is only self serving for you and a couple others. And it agrivates the OP.

Carlos, are you saying when tuning a stereo your standing in front of, you record it with a phone and make adjustments with the phones feedback?

I 100% agree recording with a calibrated mic and plotting phase, timing, impulse and frequency is way more accurate than doing a crossover design by ear. At least to set a solid foundation.
And even listening to a clients system via a recording to know how to advise would be beneficial if you had a highly trained ear. You, being a pro and doing this as a business are a skilled tradesman using a tool. Heck, I run across many that can't hold a screwdriver. Are they going to install one of my panels. No. Are they going to listen to your phone recording and have any idea how to cross the boundary of phone/live. No.

FWIW, with a BACCH, you sit in the chair with microphone in your ear and sweeps of the room are done. Then the BACCH as well as the ORC (phase, timing, impule, freq) are set for the system. Takes about 1 hour. All the work is done remote. And the systems sound amazing. And the plotted on graph are far more correct than with no adjustments. So yes, a microphone in a room can tell someone an accurate picture of what is happening in the room. But it takes a skilled pro to do it.

 

[bonzo75]

There is something like 20,000 prople that traffic WBF. I doubt 1% of those people have the experience you have with video compare and analysis. It may be a usefull tool to a few people.

It is more useful than shows. Shows are quite inaccurate, plus lack feedback. With videos, you get feedback. You can exchange views on that video with someone in the room, ask for changes, and videos is a continuing process. You can show your system over time. Show is done, and over. You exchange views with those who have walked in at a different time, the music playing and the system itself at the show can sound different. There is very little control.

if you don’t have experience with videos, but go through the videos I have posted in the cello, violin, large scale etc video threads, you will see a clear pattern. Whether you choose to do the work of listening through or not Is based on your interest and belief.

 

[Kingrex]

I did listen. To both of your video. Each speaker is different. What am I supposed to listen for and how donI translate that to my system?
Record mine and listen. Thats only 1 data point.

 

[Kingrex]

I recorded my stereo. I don't have the dynamics and bass authority. I am picking a random version off Qobuz. I can not upload a video. Says the files are too large.

 

[Carlos269]

I did listen. To both of your video. Each speaker is different. What am I supposed to listen for and how donI translate that to my system?
Record mine and listen. Thats only 1 data point.

Rex, do with this “data point”what you will. If you are satisfied with the way your system sounds and enjoying it that is great. There is no need for further experimentation on your part; you can always just hang around to socialize. I wish we all had reached the end of the road. Congratulations.

Regarding the BAACH processors, I have not experimented with one but based on my reading it appears to be the pinnacle of room-correction, cross-talk-cancellation, and headphone processors. I played with the Sig-Tech, TACT, and have a number of mastering studio spatial editors. I like to be in control so these solutions where you let the processors do all the adjustments are not usually my type of tool as I usually have something else in mind than the processor’s algorithm.

I believe that the reason why most don’t find that much value or utility for system videos is that most members' systems are what I call a “sitting-duck”. Let me explain what I mean by that. By “sitting-duck” I mean that most purist and traditional audiophile systems lack any real adjustability for tuning. Yes, sure you can move the speakers around or you can pay a set-up man to move them around the room for you, but there is only so much you can accomplish by this because of room acoustics & geometry and the acoustic characteristics of the surfaces and furnishings. The system owners typically turn to unpredictable trial and error component, speaker, tube, cables and so on swaps in an effort to make substantial changes to the sound of their systems. The problem with this approach as I mentioned before is that these type of changes have limited effectiveness and that is by design as typical audio components are not designed to steer too far from neutral, a flat frequency response; so their effects are relatively minor and typically it is the cumulative effects of the stack up of these minor deviations that produces the resulting perceived changes in the system’s overall sound.

It is for that reason that I design my systems with adjustability so that I can fine tune the resulting sound. And here is where the videos help me. I compare the system changes and my systems against each other. Whenever I come across a video of a system that sounds great to me I listen to what is it about that system that sounds great and I want my system to do better. That is what I do with these videos. You and others might not have the buttons to push, sliders to slide, or knobs to turn to make the neceaaary adjustments. I believe that this is a major reason why system videos are of little value or use to most members here; there is nothing to adjust. The only option for these “sitting duck” systems is to purchase something new, new speakers, new amplifiers, new cables, new tubes, new power conditioning, a change of the room and then back to square one, perhaps a different square but the same situation as before, a different scenery but same situation.

Hopefully this address your questions of what to do or what could be done with these videos.

 

[Kingrex]

Rex, do with this “data point”what you will. If you are satisfied with the way your system sounds and enjoying it that is great. There is no need for further experimentation on your part; you can always just hang around to socialize. I wish we all had reached the end of the road. Congratulations.

Regarding the BAACH processors, I have not experimented with one but based on my reading it appears to be the pinnacle of room-correction, cross-talk-cancellation, and headphone processors. I played with the Sig-Tech, TACT, and have a number of mastering studio spatial editors. I like to be in control so these solutions where you let the processors do all the adjustments are not usually my type of tool as I usually have something else in mind than the processor’s algorithm.

I believe that the reason why most don’t find that much value or utility for system videos is that most members' systems are what I call a “sitting-duck”. Let me explain what I mean by that. By “sitting-duck” I mean that most purist and traditional audiophile systems lack any real adjustability for tuning. Yes, sure you can move the speakers around or you can pay a set-up man to move them around the room for you, but there is only so much you can accomplish by this because of room acoustics & geometry and the acoustic characteristics of the surfaces and furnishings. The system owners typically turn to unpredictable trial and error component, speaker, tube, cables and so on swaps in an effort to make substantial changes to the sound of their systems. The problem with this approach as I mentioned before is that these type of changes have limited effectiveness and that is by design as typical audio components are not designed to steer to far from neutral; so their effects are relatively minor and typically it is the combination of the stack up of these minor deviations that produces the resulting perceived changes in the system’s overall sound.

It is for that reason that I design my systems with adjustability so that I can fine tune the resulting sound. And here is where the videos help me. I compare the system changes and my systems against each other. Whenever I come across a video of a system that sounds great to me I listen to what is it about that system that sounds great and I want my system to do better. That is what I do with these videos. You and others might not have the buttons to push, sliders to slide, or knobs to turn to make the neceaaary adjustments. I believe that this is a major reason why system videos are of little value or use to most members here; there is nothing to adjust. The only option for these “sitting duck” systems is to purchase something new, new speakers, new amplifiers, new cables, new tubes, new power conditioning, a change of the room and then back to square one, perhaps a different square but the same situation as before, a different scenery but same situation.

Hopefully this address your questions of what to do or what could be done with these videos.

You sound exactly like Jason (audiophile junkie). He is adamant every stero that lacks DSP of a minimum Mini DSP SHD is limited. He is far more confident in the BACCH/ORC software. I have a good friend with it. He has a well tuned room. Treatments, beams under the floor, platforms. He did his room very well. He got the BACCH/ORC and said it picked it up another notch. Not huge because his room was already very good.

When I am done with my new house and room I will add subs, treatments, then a BACCH/ORC. I am having to accept there is only so much you can do with what you call a sitting duck. On a Whatsapp group I am on, someone just posted and IO design music video. It was pretty crushing compared to what I was listening here. Similar in many ways. Superior in a few. God listen to me. Evaluating a video. I have to go lay down.

 

[Carlos269]

You sound exactly like Jason (audiophile junkie). He is adamant every stero that lacks DSP of a minimum Mini DSP SHD is limited. He is far more confident in the BACCH/ORC software. I have a good friend with it. He has a well tuned room. Treatments, beams under the floor, platforms. He did his room very well. He got the BACCH/ORC and said it picked it up another notch. Not huge because his room was already very good.

When I am done with my new house and room I will add subs, treatments, then a BACCH/ORC. I am having to accept there is only so much you can do with what you call a sitting duck. On a Whatsapp group I am on, someone just posted and IO design music video. It was pretty crushing compared to what I was listening here. Similar in many ways. Superior in a few. God listen to me. Evaluating a video. I have to go lay down.

Rex, the System-Remastering process that I developed, designed and implemented on my WAAR system is 100% analog. I have done it every way: all digital, all analog, and hybrid combinations. There are many ways to implement the appropriate level of adjustability, the key is to have the capabilities to make “substantial” level adjustments in the system.

By the way, I liked Jason when he started as the “Audiophile Junkie” as he has a lot of experience and was out to expose the shams, but somewhere along the way he got dazzled by the big price tags and all the hype and he became part of the system he once railed against. But deep inside I think the intelligent person is still in there . He is just trying to make a little money with his YouTube channel and enjoys experiencing the high dollar stuff he now reports on. What can I say, he got seduced by the price tags and the nonsense. Maybe one day he will see the light again.

 

[Kingrex]

If I may ask, what sort of price can a WAAR system be built for a 3 way speaker.
How much space does it take.

 

[Carlos269]

If I may ask, what sort of price can a WAAR system be built for a 3 way speaker.
How much space does it take.

Rex, I’m not allowed to state any particulars because one of the site owners and moderators consider that self-promotion and I’m not allowed to do that unless I have an advertisement Master Service Agreement in place with What’s Best Forums. I’m still not sure how people like Ralf/Atmasphere, Thomas Mayer and others are able to promote their products on here without advertisements contracts in place but it may be selective favoritism or something like that.

To answer your question, with out getting in trouble of violating the terms of use rules, my System-Remastering system on my WAAR system was designed with that system in mind as I had some very specific objectives, such as staying all analog, minimizing the number of boxes and to give the system that “live” sound and feel. The objectives for your systems could be radically different than mine. The objectives is what drives the equipment selection. The interesting thing about the pro-audio, studio, mastering world is that you can achieve similar results with equipment varying widely in cost and across the whole cost spectrum. I could have implemented the system on my WAAR system with inexpensive pro-audio processors and also with ultra high-end mastering equipment. The price spread would have been from three figures to five figures in those two examples. I ended up using equipment that I already had in the house so I consider my implementation around 80% in terms of what it could cost. There is an ultra high end segment in the mastering studio world as well, but there again it is not always needed. Let me say this, you get a lot of bang for your buck with mastering studio equipment. The ideal solution for you would need to be developed and designed with your input for your specific situation and goals. Sorry for the lack of specifics in my answer.

 

[Kingrex]

Ok, I admit. Listening to the video on this thread and listening to my own recorded with a Samsung gives me an idea of what you can hear on a video. There are difference between all the system video. All unique. The dynamics and blatt of big horns is very pronounced. There is a cleanness between instruments. Are they all from a phone microphone? Non are an accessory mic attached to the phone?

What I can not tell is if the sound is hard and fatiguing. All the systems are playing very loud. I have been to enough homes where the sound when at optimum room pressure is to loud for me. Hurts my ears enough I could not listen to any music for close to a week after some sessions.

Post 28 Millett is one of my favorite playback. I get what the horns are all doing. But I do hear a horn sound. A little bit of hollow. When I have time tomorrow I want to record that song on my system and compare it.
The video do show me where I need to go. I feel I will have to try and biamp my system to do it. My crossover is sucking to much energy. I think my drivers and amp can do it. I need to simplify what the amp is driving through.

I.just went and listened to a video a friend texted me. Sounds nothing like his stereo I have heard many times. There has to be something to how the video is taken. How or what mic is picking up the sound. There needs to be some sort of standardization to what is used and how the capture is taken.to make any assessment of the basics of what your hearing.

 

[bonzo75]

Ok, I admit. Listening to the video on this thread and listening to my own recorded with a Samsung gives me an idea of what you can hear on a video.

wish one more person on the forum was this open

 

[Alrainbow]

Rex get a set of ear buds Bluetooth is fine
then get to know there sound and adjust there eq a bit. Mostly to me earbuds market towards boom bass. Lower bass , this mostly fixes all.
do horns have a distinctive sound like panels ?
I think horns and panels reproduce a sound I love. But it’s all I ever had so when I hear them I’m home again. Good or bad sound I’m home. loudness is individually heard, as we age and we loose some things sounds appear louder faster. but a well done system has the need to play louder less. if you can’t talk to a person next to you it’s loud. but while you can but still all the low level details and loud at once
It’s done well.
When I go to shows and you’ve seen me I wear ear buds lol. ear savers but always out in rooms