But for the fact it would require a new, longer power cable, I would try. My new room setup has the gear on the side, amp between the speakers. Sigma analog on the Ref75 into the wall.
Shunyata DENALI
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But for the fact it would require a new, longer power cable, I would try. My new room setup has the gear on the side, amp between the speakers. Sigma analog on the Ref75 into the wall.
Of course you can isolate a single performance parameter. It's the same in cars. You can measure the weight, HP, torque, etc. We agree that a single performance parameter does not determine the final performance.
In your previous quote, you seemed to imply that while the Denali has greater noise reduction/CCI, the Triton v2/Typhon had greater DTCD, meaning there was not a clear cut choice between the components. These following quotes from Grant seem to support that:
I have asked roughly the same question twice, to which you have gone on tangents about your products and technical definitions that I was already aware of.
If you want to make things simple, you can just verify my statement above your last reply, or explain what is incorrect. You can continue to dance around the questions, but you would just indirectly verify my postulate.
Nobody is dancing around anything. And further, I don't understand your confrontational tone.
Your question was about which product had greater or lesser DTCD capabilities, which I already answered. If you want to continue the conversation - drop the attitude. And then, simply ask a follow up question since I quite frankly don't know what you are trying to learn or understand.
You seem to have several basic misunderstandings about the products. For instance, a Typhon has no effect on DTCD since it does not conduct power line current. It is a noise reduction mate to the Triton. Therefore, DTCD is an irrelevant concept in relation to it specifically.
Next, in the Triton all the outlets are equivalent. There are no application specific outlets for either source components or high current components. The Denali by contrast does have outlets dedicated for source components and outlets dedicated to high current devices. The DTCD capabilities of the HC outlets in the Denali are roughly equivalent to those in the Triton. The Zone 1 & Zone 2 outlets in the Denali have less DTCD than the HC outlets since they have series filters for higher levels of CCI noise reduction. That being said, the Z1 and Z2 outlets in the Denali are still capable of over 15 Amps of continuous current delivery.
I am not trying to appear confrontational. The fact still remains that you have not answered my original question:
Does the Triton v2 offer greater DTCD/instantaneous current delivery than the Triton v3?
This is a yes or no question. The possible answers are:
1) Yes, the Triton v2 offers greater DTCD than the Triton v3.
2) No, the Triton v3 offers greater DTCD than the Triton v2.
You have said the difference is "marginal", and that is fine when added as an addendum or explanation. It just doesn't answer the very simple question.
I fully understand this. You and/or Grant have recommended using the Typhon on the wall outlet to the amps for ultra systems. In this case, the gear/amps would receive the greatest instantaneous current delivery possible.
I never claimed otherwise.
Do the Denali HC outlets provide greater DTCD than the Triton? I understand they are "roughly equivalent."
If the answer is no, this doesn't make logical sense. If the Denali Zone 1/2 outlets "have less DTCD than the HC outlets since they have series filters for higher levels of CCI noise reduction," how does the Triton v3 provide greater DTCD than the Denali HC outlets when using similar CCI medical filters? Similar could be said about the Triton v2's use of CCI filters. Is it the wire or larger CCI medical filters?
This also doesn't follow Audiostream's Steven Plaskin's findings. "The Power Amplifier Challenge
I have used numerous brands of power conditioners with my power amps and have never been satisfied with the sonic results. Some elements of the sound improved, but the over-all sound always seemed less dynamic and alive sounding leading me to connect the amps directly to the wall outlets. It just always sounded best connecting my high power amps directly to the wall.
I connected my 2 Ayre Acoustics MX-R Twenty amps to the Denali D6000/T. The result was astonishing in terms of the sonic improvements I was hearing.
"The 2000T is a Typhon for amps. If you just want to condition your amps, get the 2000T."
http://www.audiostream.com/content/shunyata-research-denali-series#Zbjdku2bFjod0Bgc.9
This is getting somewhat complicated because of all the excerpting and pursuit. For more detailed information requests, it would be easier to answer these as simply stated questions in an e-mail or a phone call, but I'll try to get to each of your questions. If its still not clear, please e-mail or call me. I'm traveling currently but will be back by mid-week.
1. The simple answer is no, The Triton v2 does not offer greater (measured) DTCD than the Triton v3 or vice-versa. However, when there is superior noise removal through entirely passive means, the system as a whole and especially amps can be perceived to play louder with less compression, giving the impression of greater power-handling, greater dynamics, more three-dimensionality and improved transient attack/bass-weight
Customers who own and use Typhons with amps, or who upgraded from the Triton v2 to the v3 all swear there is a dramatic improvement in these areas. Although the DTCD Analyzer measurement may not capture the measured improvement, the anecdotal evidence is quite overwhelming that the Tv3, Typhon, Denali 6000 HC outlets and 2000T all make amps and systems sound more dynamic, powerful and loud without timing loss, hardness or other artifice. This is because the noise-isolation is relieving perceived compression (noise around the leading edge of transients) in sound--without slowing phase/timing accuracy.
The CCI (component-to-component interference filters) designation covers two different types of filtration in the Denali, for example. There are two levels of CCI filters in the zone-1 and zone-2 outlets of the Denali 6000 models. The first level are simpler, in-series filters that have been updated and improved from the Triton v2. These new filters are in the Triton v3 and the Denali 6000 models. These first-stage filters have zero-effect on DTCD. There is a second-stage of CCI isolation in the Denali 6000 models, represented by more robust filters Caelin specifically designed for the medical imaging and scientific industries. These CCI filters sit behind zone-1 and zone 2 in the 6000 models -- only.
These second-stage medical-design filters are not in the Tv3. The Denali zone-1 and zone-2 stage-two filters offer massive noise-isolation for digital or analog sources. Due to their design, the zone-1 and zone-2 outlets are 15A rated rather than 20A rated. They are not quite as efficient with DTCD as the first level of filters alone, but still deliver more than adequate DTCD for all sources and pre-amps. The key upgrade and difference in Triton v3 is a _massive_ version of the QR/BB technology that is in a smaller form in the Denali 2000T and in the Denali 6000 models. This massive QR/BB module is what makes the Tv3 more expensive than the v2 and in terms of performance, represents a massive upgrade over the v2, as well as an upgrade over the Denali models.
If you'd like even more specific information, I think it'd be best to either e-mail me or call us and someone will get back to you.
Best regards,
Grant
My 6000T arrived just before lunch. Decided music was way more important vs Food (my headache reminded me I was incorrect here) and torn down the system to insert the 6000T.
I have a Sigma HC feeding the 6000T, the Pass XA100.5's plugged into the HC outlet, the Ref 2SE and XP-20 sharing an outlet pair, and the dCS Rossini and SACD player sharing the other outlet pair. Right out of the box, I gotta just say WOW. I'll reserve comment till there are some hours on everything, but so far I'm not disappointed.
I have a Sigma HC feeding the 6000T, the Pass XA100.5's plugged into the HC outlet, the Ref 2SE and XP-20 sharing an outlet pair, and the dCS Rossini and SACD player sharing the other outlet pair. Right out of the box, I gotta just say WOW. I'll reserve comment till there are some hours on everything, but so far I'm not disappointed.
Congratulations - I have now ordered a similar system, but as I need many power cables, for the moment I ordered one Alpha EF for the 6000T and all else Alpha NR.
What would the major difference be between a Hydra Cyclops and a two outlet Denali? I'd be plugging two Kii 3vspeakers into the unit.
The Cyclops uses previous generation NIC (noise isolation chamber) technology while the Denali uses the new QR/BB technology. The Denali has a more advanced, vibration isolation, chassis and footers. The Denali has the latest third generation CCI filters. The Denali has the Cable Cradle system that supports heavy power cables. The Denali benefits by the KPIP process.
Subjective: The Denali is clearly and profoundly superior.
Hi Caelin or Grant.
At the end of April, I placed my order to Ajasom for a Denali 6000T and I would like to know if you have an approximate date to serve that order.
Sure that the delay, is the consequence of a successful product, but "have compassion" from European customers ....
Best regards
At the end of April, I placed my order to Ajasom for a Denali 6000T and I would like to know if you have an approximate date to serve that order.
Sure that the delay, is the consequence of a successful product, but "have compassion" from European customers ....
Best regards
Hi Caelin or Grant.
At the end of April, I placed my order to Ajasom for a Denali 6000T and I would like to know if you have an approximate date to serve that order.
Sure that the delay, is the consequence of a successful product, but "have compassion" from European customers ....
Best regards
Please feel free to send these inquiries to us directly if you cannot get a firm answer from your sales team. I travel frequently and don't work out of the factory, so your best course is our cservice@shunyata.com e-mail.
There are no delays with Denali production, but if you ordered an Alpha power cord with the unit, those were backordered originally. The rather large backorder has now cleared. From what I know, all production is proceeding normally at this time. I would recommend following up with Ajasom. I would assume your order is complete, but I cannot know other details that may impact prompt delivery.
Best regards,
Grant
Okay, Grant.
It seems that his response has produced rapid reaction in Ajasom ......
He told me to get in touch with Shunyata, to send the Denali 6000T and then send you the cables.
If I do not get in touch with you I might be waiting for the Denali for Christmas.....
I believe that if I attended with such speed the orders of my clients, as much could listen to music on an Ipod.......
Thank you and best regards
It seems that his response has produced rapid reaction in Ajasom ......
He told me to get in touch with Shunyata, to send the Denali 6000T and then send you the cables.
If I do not get in touch with you I might be waiting for the Denali for Christmas.....
I believe that if I attended with such speed the orders of my clients, as much could listen to music on an Ipod.......
Thank you and best regards
Hello Shunyata Team,
I have a question about the various Denali models available. I currently own the 6000T as an FYI.
Below are my questions:
1. Do the Denali devices provide any form of Surge Suppression beyond what ever protection is contained within the Main power switch on the front panel of the device?
2. How does having a 30AMP breaker switch on the front of the 6000T work in conjunction with say a 20A breaker in the main panel that feeds the wall socket that the Denali is plugged into when dealing with a Surge that somehow finds its way past the 20A breaker in the main panel of the basement?
3. Similar to question 2 above, how does using one of the Shunyata Alpha HC Power Cables which is a 20A rated cable (I think) work in conjunction with the 30A breaker on the front panel of the 6000T?
I guess in summary, I am wondering if you are using a 20A breaker in the Mains panel in the basement and a 20A Rated Shunyata power cord but the within the Denali itself is a 30A breaker does this mean that should any surge find its way past the Mains breaker will the components connected to the Denali be a risk of damage since the front panel breaker will not trip until it see's 30A or more?
Thanks
I have a question about the various Denali models available. I currently own the 6000T as an FYI.
Below are my questions:
1. Do the Denali devices provide any form of Surge Suppression beyond what ever protection is contained within the Main power switch on the front panel of the device?
2. How does having a 30AMP breaker switch on the front of the 6000T work in conjunction with say a 20A breaker in the main panel that feeds the wall socket that the Denali is plugged into when dealing with a Surge that somehow finds its way past the 20A breaker in the main panel of the basement?
3. Similar to question 2 above, how does using one of the Shunyata Alpha HC Power Cables which is a 20A rated cable (I think) work in conjunction with the 30A breaker on the front panel of the 6000T?
I guess in summary, I am wondering if you are using a 20A breaker in the Mains panel in the basement and a 20A Rated Shunyata power cord but the within the Denali itself is a 30A breaker does this mean that should any surge find its way past the Mains breaker will the components connected to the Denali be a risk of damage since the front panel breaker will not trip until it see's 30A or more?
Thanks
Hi,
There are three stages of protection in Denali models. The units CCI filters stop short-duration line transients and spikes. Behind those sits a Thermally Insulated MOV stage (TMOV) which only breaks the line in the event of a catastrophic surge and finally you have the Carling breaker with remote sensor that trips in the event of an over-20A surge.
To your second point, the 30A rated Carling was selected for its more massive contact points for peak-current. Its an expensive part, but was chosen for its over-rated current capacity. The "break" setting on the breaker is at 20A, however, so your system/outlets and panel will be fine rated at 20A, or even 15A.
The Alpha HC or NR power cords are beyond 30A capable if you are considering their massive wire-gauge, but the system will only support current to its lowest rated part. There are precious few systems that will out-draw a 20A rated breaker, so most of this is a moot point beyond insuring that all the parts of your electrical path are as over-rated in terms of contact integrity, as you can make them .
Over the years, as we've done more and more testing with the Dynamic Transient Current Analyzer (DTCD), its become obvious that at every junction, the gauge and the base-metal quality of contact metals are critical. Each point where there is a sum of current, is measurably sensitive to in-line resistance. For anyone who wonders why after-market power cords and better wall-outlets "sound better" than stock, look no further than the DTCD efficiency of major contact junctions for current. Its measurable, relates directly to sound (dynamics, timing, perceived lowering of noise) and is the underlying reason for the very existence of the specialty power cord and custom-designed outlet industry. Some may like to argue the point, but we've proven this unequivocally and empirically for our own purposes.
Yes, conventional noise-reduction within electrical delivery systems matters too, but the foundation of electrical system performance (for audio-playback) starts with optimized DTCD---which brings us back to the explanation behind all of our parts and material manipulations-- breaker choices, CopperConn solid-copper outlets and connectors, KPIP, Sonic welding, wire geometries and creating a symmetry of metals (in our case, OFE Copper) throughout every contact point in the system. For us, getting out of the way of the electrical signal and making junctions "disappear" so to speak, is the over-riding goal. Only after DTCD is optimized, do we come back in to look at passive forms of noise reduction.
All that said, the actual performance difference between the 30A breaker in the 6000T and the 20A in the 6000S is quite small. Certainly, it shouldn't swing a decision to spend the extra $1,000 on the 6000T. The biggest construction differences in the T model are the integrated base, stainless steel feet and cable-supports. The 30A breaker was added because we could squeeze it in and still maintain the retail price. It makes a difference, like all our parts and material manipulations, but like everything we do, its the accumulation of science, parts and design choices rather than this or that part that create the sum of performance.
Likely more than anyone needed to know
Grant
(...) All that said, the actual performance difference between the 30A breaker in the 6000T and the 20A in the 6000S is quite small. Certainly, it shouldn't swing a decision to spend the extra $1,000 on the 6000T. The biggest construction differences in the T model are the integrated base, stainless steel feet and cable-supports. The 30A breaker was added because we could squeeze it in and still maintain the retail price. It makes a difference, like all our parts and material manipulations, but like everything we do, its the accumulation of science, parts and design choices rather than this or that part that create the sum of performance.
Likely more than anyone needed to know
Grant
We always manage to find a new question
: what are the ratings of the breakers of the 230V european models?
We always manage to find a new question
16A since that is the typical maximum household line rating.
You are confusing two different conditions: One is the maximum current rating of the Denali and the other is "over-voltage" transient protection. They are not the same.
Every power conditioner has a voltage rating which is usually defined by an allowable voltage range: i.e. 220-250~V
This is the 'input' voltage rating - what the device will tolerate as an input AC line voltage.
The power conditioner will also have a 'maximum' current rating. This is usually an aggregate rating of the total amount of current that the device can handle through all of its outlets combined. This is a 'continuous' rating - meaning that it can sustain this current indefinitely. This rating is limited by the part in the conditioner that has the smallest current rating.
The internal wiring and buss system in the Denali is more than capable of sustained currents in excess of 50A. The outlets and the AC inlet are usually the limiting parts.
Having a power conditioner that is capable of 20A does not mean it cannot be connected to an AC line that is rated at 15A. It simply means that the conditioner cannot be overloaded by the line current from the wall. The breaker at your electrical panel will trip before the Denali's. Some people do have 20A lines, so is a benefit to them that they can use all the available current from their dedicated line.
All audo and video components have fuses to protect themselves from fault conditions within the device. This has nothing to do with what the Denali's maximum current rating is. Many devices have fuses that are rated at 1-5 amps. It is specific to each component.
Over-current protection in the Denali is provided by a 'hydraulic electromagnetic breaker' instead of a common fuse or thermal breaker. Fuses and thermal breakers operate by 'heating up' as the maximum current rating is reached. They pop when a certain temperature is exceeded. They also produce thermal noise when operated near their maximum capacity. In our tests, we have found that this is audible as a type of 'noise' in a high-end audio system. This is why we don't use fuses or thermal breakers. An electromagnetic breaker works by monitoring the current level through a 'sensing coil' but the current flows through a set of contacts similar to what are in high capacity relays. This type of breaker can operate right up to the maximum current limit without a performance loss.
I hope this helps.
Here you go again!!!
At the risk of repeating myself and maybe even leaving myself open to accusations of sucking up!!!! Let me say again:
It is so refreshing to look at the Shunyata responses from Caelin and Grant. You gentlemen represent a sea of calm and reason in a world of shaymans, trolls and tricksters. Where others lead with unsubstantiated claims and theories and "explanations" that not even expert audio reviewers can demystify, you gentlemen continue with old fashioned science, logic and repeatable measurements! What an outdated concept!!!
And then you dare to understate the impact of your cables and conditioners, causing us poor buyers to come up with all kinds of accolades and lame descriptions as to why your products are so good! I am flummoxed and afraid of what comes next!!!! Surely you must have a few magnets you can wave around!!!
Cheers
Jerryb
At the risk of repeating myself and maybe even leaving myself open to accusations of sucking up!!!! Let me say again:
It is so refreshing to look at the Shunyata responses from Caelin and Grant. You gentlemen represent a sea of calm and reason in a world of shaymans, trolls and tricksters. Where others lead with unsubstantiated claims and theories and "explanations" that not even expert audio reviewers can demystify, you gentlemen continue with old fashioned science, logic and repeatable measurements! What an outdated concept!!!
And then you dare to understate the impact of your cables and conditioners, causing us poor buyers to come up with all kinds of accolades and lame descriptions as to why your products are so good! I am flummoxed and afraid of what comes next!!!! Surely you must have a few magnets you can wave around!!!
Cheers
Jerryb
You are obviously a gentleman of profound knowledge and distinction! Flattery will get you absolutely nothing other than a - THANK YOU. Sometimes it is just good to be appreciated.
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