Sme 3012 R

I know this old arm is good but I don’t know why David,Rockitman,Tang,Ron,Mike
Use or will use having top tonearm like Sat,EliteAxiom,Black Beauty,Durand

Why 3012 is so special?
I never had and I don’t understand
Only to know for my curiosity
Regards
Gian

 

You may have to adjust your volume. I didn’t level match when recorded.

Here is AtlasSL.



Here is Opus1.



Tang

Hi Tang, I was in Germany on vacation and did not want to listen to these on my iPhone. Now that I'm back, I listened through headphones and my iMac. Still not like the main system, but I could definitely hear differences. Thank you very much for taking the effort to make these recordings. I don't think much can be concluded, but they are fun to watch and sound pretty nice. I really enjoyed the beginning close us shots of David's table and arms. These convey information better than 2D photos I think.

Anyway, I appreciate your making these and sharing them. Congratulations again.

PS, now I'm curious about the sound before David disconnected the subs.

 

What does logic of argument have to with owning the gear?

I don't comment on digital threads because it's not just about the gear, it's about the software, connections, tweaking, etc. My opinion regarding digital is worthless because I don't know schiit about digital.

 

Peter, the only way you are going to get the answers you are looking for is to mount an SME 3012R on your turntable in your system and see how it compares to your current arm. No answers by anyone, whether they are theoretical or someone's personal listening experience, are going to tell you if you will prefer the arm over your current arm.

Why do all these threads become pissing contests (Peter I am not referring to you)? People are always annoyed that other people REALLY LIKE something and then the contest begins.

People need to hear things with their own ears in order to settle the score. Nothing else matters.

 

Peter, the only way you are going to get the answers you are looking for is to mount an SME 3012R on your turntable in your system and see how it compares to your current arm. No answers by anyone, whether they are theoretical or someone's personal listening experience, are going to tell you if you will prefer the arm over your current arm.

(...)

People need to hear things with their own ears in order to settle the score. Nothing else matters.

I agree.

As perhaps many if not most of us are aware, an arm is more than its geometry, mass and mechanical integrity. Though these aspects obviously exert influence over the final outcome, we measure the success of an arm in the same way we do a meal - not by the individual parts, and not even in-and-of-itself, but by the whole (contextualised via a specific cart/table and their interaction).

I greatly appreciate all the contributions of those here who have had or do currently own the 3012 R (an arm I have some interest in, hence my interest in this thread), but analogue, like cooking, is something one practices. This analogy, while flawed and of limited plasticity, is perhaps apt in that while the constituent ingredients in-and-of-themselves can be discerned and discussed separately, what ultimately counts is what happens when they are all brought together.

Reading cookbooks written by others is a poor substitute for cooking. Lessons from a master chef can be useful, but only ever as a set of parameters in which one must then go and engage in the how - become a practitioner via a process trail and error - in order to learn the value of why.

In this regard I further concur with the thoughts expressed earlier by ddk: one need try it for oneself.

Theory makes for a great slave, a poor master.

Best,

853guy

 

What does logic of argument have to with owning the gear?

I don't comment on digital threads because it's not just about the gear, it's about the software, connections, tweaking, etc. My opinion regarding digital is worthless because I don't know schiit about digital.

My original comment was:
Yes, it's ridiculous. Dismissing their [current SME engineers'] achievements and claims that the new arms are better as marketing BS is surprising, to put it gently.

To make such a comment I don't have to have heard the SME 3012R arm. It follows from pure logic. Unless of course you think those current SME engineers don't know what they're doing and they can't even hear the qualities of the 3012R arm, or they can hear them and "don't want to admit it's superior". That's quite a stretch.

Yet in addition, while I have not heard the 3012R arm, I have heard the SME V-12 arm -- countless times even. And boy, is it musical, resolving and the presentation full of life. Lifeless? Nah.

That arm is a superior instrument. Does the 3012R sound better? Maybe, maybe not. But since the current SME engineers very well know how to make excellent gear -- I have heard the evidence myself countless times --, it is illogical to me to dismiss their views as "marketing BS".

 

My original comment was:
Yes, it's ridiculous. Dismissing their [current SME engineers'] achievements and claims that the new arms are better as marketing BS is surprising, to put it gently.

To make such a comment I don't have to have heard the SME 3012R arm. It follows from pure logic. Unless of course you think those current SME engineers don't know what they're doing and they can't even hear the qualities of the 3012R arm, or they can hear them and "don't want to admit it's superior". That's quite a stretch.

Yet in addition, while I have not heard the 3012R arm, I have heard the SME V-12 arm -- countless times even. And boy, is it musical, resolving and the presentation full of life. Lifeless? Nah.

That arm is a superior instrument. Does the 3012R sound better? Maybe, maybe not. But since the current SME engineers very well know how to make excellent gear -- I have heard the evidence myself countless times --, it is illogical to me to dismiss their views as "marketing BS".

disappointing.

 

Peter, the only way you are going to get the answers you are looking for is to mount an SME 3012R on your turntable in your system and see how it compares to your current arm. No answers by anyone, whether they are theoretical or someone's personal listening experience, are going to tell you if you will prefer the arm over your current arm.

Why do all these threads become pissing contests (Peter I am not referring to you)? People are always annoyed that other people REALLY LIKE something and then the contest begins.

People need to hear things with their own ears in order to settle the score. Nothing else matters.

agreed.

 

disappointing.

What is disappointing, Jeff?

That I come to the defense of the current SME engineers, for good reason?

Again, I haven't said anything about the sound quality of the 3012R arm, which I haven't heard.

 

What is disappointing, Jeff?

That I come to the defense of the current SME engineers, for good reason?

Again, I haven't said anything about the sound quality of the 3012R arm, which I haven't heard.

Dear Al,

Is that “good reason” that your own preferences and biases align with the sound of a single example of the V-12, contextualised within a single system?

If one has heard and likes the V-12 - fantastic. We have another data point.

Nevertheless, until one has heard the 3012 R, one cannot use what one believes they think they know about the current SME engineers as a counter argument against those who have. To do so is to engage in the logical fallacy of appeals to authority.

I offer this as an attempt to keep the thread aligned with the stated desire for “pure logic” (principles and ideas), rather than speculative assumption (the competence of individuals). The former will serve us well if we intend to make any headway in this thread. The latter, much less so.

Best,

853guy

 

I offer this as an attempt to keep the thread aligned with the stated desire for “pure logic” (principles and ideas), rather than speculative assumption (the competence of individuals). The former will serve us well if we intend to make any headway in this thread. The latter, much less so.

Best,

853guy

Right, and the claim that the current SME engineers engage in "marketing BS" was speculative assumption.

 

People can hear the same thing but still have different opinions. There is no absolute best gear but only best to our own ears. In this forum I never defend any gear I own. I just give my opinion on them in case people find them useful as data point. However they wish to form their opinion is up to them. They don’t have to think the same as me. The forum we have here is a good place to find users experiences on gears. I read many good comments about this SME arm. It triggered my curiosity so I bought to see how good it is. I now find it together with my carts sound as exceptional as claimed by quite a few users in this forum. Words of mouth from one to another...just like SAT and others. Sometime I follow words of mouth I win. Often I lost. My friend Gianluigi always tells me “But it might not sound good to your ears” at the end of his recommendation to any gear. Those are words of wisdom imo.

Kind regards,
Tang

Dear Tang,

The term koolaid is not in reference to any tonearm or discussion this thread has already been through the cleaners once and the back & forth between us is personal. The thread is about a readily available relatively affordable piece of gear that performs at a very high level which for whatever reason had become obscure, its not about the 3012 vs anything else. They have nothing but feel the urge to troll.

You still have these Stooges going at it, and since they have nothing to contribute they now stand for the honor of some unknown SME employee that someone here spoke to on phone. This is how ridiculous they are and I'm calling them on it. Nothing to do with what anyone hears or simple difference of opinion.

david

 

Right, and the claim that the current SME engineers engage in "marketing BS" was speculative assumption.

Again, and solely in the interest of pure logic, it would seem illogical to critique the use of speculative assumption via more speculative assumption.

Do I sound like Spock right now?

Enjoy the thread, Al.

Best,

853guy

 

Peter, the only way you are going to get the answers you are looking for is to mount an SME 3012R on your turntable in your system and see how it compares to your current arm. No answers by anyone, whether they are theoretical or someone's personal listening experience, are going to tell you if you will prefer the arm over your current arm.

Why do all these threads become pissing contests (Peter I am not referring to you)? People are always annoyed that other people REALLY LIKE something and then the contest begins.

People need to hear things with their own ears in order to settle the score. Nothing else matters.

dminches, I wish it were that simple. The 3012R can not be mounted on my SME table or I would have bought one for $2,500 long ago and tried it. For me to do the comparison, it involves either modifying the arm by cutting off the end and reterminating it, or putting it on an outboard arm pod which defeats the purpose of having a suspended table. It's a true conundrum.

I agree with you that hearing it for oneself, preferably in his own system, is the only way to know, because his opinion is the only thing that really matters.

 

Why do all these threads become pissing contests [...]? People are always annoyed that other people REALLY LIKE something and then the contest begins.

Nobody here has been annoyed that other people REALLY LIKE the 3012R arm. Nobody. The discussion was about something else entirely.

 

Nobody here has been annoyed that other people REALLY LIKE the 3012R arm. Nobody. The discussion was about something else entirely.

Correct; it's about outrageous, bloated, deleterious and unsubstantiated statements put forth - the trolling that has been going on for a long time unchecked.

 

I also had a 3012-R in replacement of the Da Vinci Grandezza Ref on my TW Raven AC, and I also can say it makes me fell better music.
Many years back from now I spoked to Mr Verdier and he said as an advice for the arm «*just buy a used SME 3012, install a SPU and just listen music*» but I was young and this (at that time cheap) oldy didn’t seemed at the edge of of what was new and considered as the new king in town.
15 years later, a lot of time and money gone for, in the end, discovering the old man was wright.

 

I think both these approaches are equally unhelpful - you need to get an expert in SME 3102r set up to compare it with Arm X set up by someone who can set up X. and similar with Y. On different TTs...with different carts.

Surely you would amicably disagree with me on this point - you know my opinion on short time comparative shootouts, I find them too dependent on the specific recording being used and on my mood. Sorry to tell I think that two or three people, if able to communicate, are less reliable than just one ...

BTW, as I am wanting to give a fair opportunity to a few newcomers that have arrived I got a different type of DAC today - perhaps I will put it close to the SME 3012R, it will sound better.

 

dminches, I wish it were that simple. The 3012R can not be mounted on my SME table or I would have bought one for $2,500 long ago and tried it. For me to do the comparison, it involves either modifying the arm by cutting off the end and reterminating it, or putting it on an outboard arm pod which defeats the purpose of having a suspended table. It's a true conundrum.

I agree with you that hearing it for oneself, preferably in his own system, is the only way to know, because his opinion is the only thing that really matters.

I have been looking at the dimensions - perhaps if you use a long slotted shell you can put the SME 3012R about 6.5 mm away from the advised position towards the platter and use it as a 11 3/4" arm, setting it with the help of a protractor. Although SME lists clearance require for balance arms as R = 82.5mm my tonearm only needs 76mm .

 

David, I don't know if I'm one of "the 3" that you keep referring to. I think it is clear that I have expressed curiosity about the 3012R arm, especially relative to its replacement, the V-12, which I own and like very much. I have gone to the effort to investigate whether or not the 3012R will fit on my SME table. It won't. I have spoken to you privately about an outboard arm pod, and to SME directly about the dimensions needed for such an arm pod, all for the purpose of possibly trying one in my system. I asked you to sell me an armpod and arm to try in my system, but at the time, you were understandably too busy with the AS2000 project and deliveries. That is why I called SME. Is my behavior considered "trolling"? Have I expressed skepticism about this arm? If anything, I think I have expressed interest.

I have asked many questions on this thread and others trying to learn more about the arm. Most have gone unanswered. The fact remains that I was interested in hearing from anyone who has done a direct comparison between the 3012R and the V-12 in any system, on any turntable, using the same cartridge. No one has come forward. You told me that you have not even heard the V-12, but that you really dislike the 9" SME V arm. I have compared the V-12 and V arms directly in my system, and I heard significant differences.

So, there is little to go on except for some very enthusiastic owners enjoying the arm. That is great. I am happy that they have a sound they like, and they can save money in the meantime, as this arm seems to be a true bargain on the used market.

I would have been interested in reading comparisons from Steve and from Christian between their modern arms and their new 3012Rs using the same cartridge. Steve's preference for the 3012R is based on using different cartridges, and many would contend that the ZYX is better than the Anna. I don't really know if Christian has compared his Graham arms to the 3012R using the same cartridge. I look forward to Tang one day directly comparing the SAT to the 3012R using the same cartridge. Madfloyd and I discussed arm boards last night and the possibility that he might consider a 3012R for his Kronos.

On the Kronos, the arm board gets adjusted on the turntable chassis, so switching arms is a bit more complicated. Ian could buy a second arm board for the 3012R and then mount it in the one location, switching arms and boards and lining one up with the marks and tightening. On my SME, the arm board is always precisely fixed, so were the 3012R able to fit on my Model 30/12, I would buy a second arm board and simply leave each arm on a separate arm board to drop in the location when I wanted to switch arms. In that sense, the SME solution is very nice and elegant, but extra arm boards cost more than the 3012R itself.

Is any of this unreasonable or close to "trolling"? I suppose that from my perspective, there is little new to learn about this subject because we are going around in circles, and now the skeptics or those asking questions are being called out as trolls. I suppose I should just move on and try to hear the arm in a familiar system.

I am sorry to see the turn that this once interesting thread has taken.

Dear Peter,

Getting back to the real subject, where you & I have a different intent or interest is in the vs comparisons, that's not my approach. I judge equipment on their own merits or lack of and not in other the context. My suggestion was and is to try he 3012 for yourself, you don't need an identical position on the turntable to see what each arm is about, I guarantee you that they're quite dissimilar. Liking one tonearm more shouldn't be detrimental to the other unless you want it to be and if you like both you get to play one of your additional cartridges at will too. There's no downside for you to try I don't understand why you talk yourself out of doing it. The idea here is variety not competition.

The factory that builds the AS2000 is very expensive and always backed up with jobs it's not me that was too busy the factory is. They'll take a long time to do this and will charge you a hefty sum for design, CAD and setup time which isn't necessary given the simplicity of the object, that's why I suggested you use a small local shop to machine it.

david

 

Nobody here has been annoyed that other people REALLY LIKE the 3012R arm. Nobody. The discussion was about something else entirely.

Not quite true Al.

Davey has discounted all of our ears because were all DDK fanboys, or we like colored sound, or the SME bayonet connection is inferior, or we didn't have the right turntable, etc. Peter discounts our ears because a random SME engineer said the V12 sounds better. Ack discounts our ears because 1980's wire is inferior to modern wire.

It's all crazy trolling and signals the eventual death of the forum.