Sme 3012 R

I know this old arm is good but I don’t know why David,Rockitman,Tang,Ron,Mike
Use or will use having top tonearm like Sat,EliteAxiom,Black Beauty,Durand

Why 3012 is so special?
I never had and I don’t understand
Only to know for my curiosity
Regards
Gian

 

Dear Peter,

To be frank, the noise on the V arm is much less than the 3012R in this forum. And my main source of audio info is from this forum. I only hear from you just now that David doesn’t like the V arm so this definitely didn’t have any influence in my decision to buy 3012R. Once again I bought the 3012R because I want to know why this David guy only uses this primitive old fashioned looking arm. And also want to hear the American Sound in the perspective of the maker...no antivibe no grounding wire attached to the arms. The darn arm just turns out to sound terrific to my ears. I really don’t know how to explain to you why all the sudden I stop or no longer itch finding out new arms. Not just the SME V arm. Even “Mr.T” told me to try the Thales Statement which is his new top arm and he probably lend it to me if I asked, but I just don’t have no urges really. Maybe because I already have experiences with Axiom and SAT which many perceive to be top of the heap arm already. I personally think I have reached pretty much the peak in term of my front end. Don’t forget that I also have a pretty decent tape front to compare when I say this. So if I ever need another arm which I don’t because I have more arms than my tts required now, I would buy another 3012R because I know how it sounds and it is cheap. My money would go into something else for my system to improve further. My urges for flavor can be satisfied buying different carts. But never say never, if Gian, Bill and the General manage to wake up the devil in me, an Atlantis might as well pop up in Bangkok .

About the garage guys. I personally think they are more passionate, more drive and have more chance creating a breakthrough than the well established aging manufacturer that unavoidably have to think more how to keep feeding their long time employeess with high salaries doing the same job that can be replaced or outsourced. Fact of business.
Think Marc Gomez, Schroeder, not exactly garage now but you get the point.

Kind regards,
Tang

Thank you Tang. You are very sensible. I did not mean to insult any small manufacturers with my "guys in the garage" comment or the owners of gear manufactured-with much passion and knowledge-by them.

 

Look, if you guys would not have made bold assertions without evidence, nobody would have said anything.

As I stated earlier, all the negative comments started because a group of people were annoyed that people really like this tone arm and made statements about it. That is the definition of trolling since this same group really has no interest in the tone arm for their own personal use. I am not sure why it bothers them that others are (overly) enthusiastic.

 

I would never put a SME V12 in my EMT927 - sorry! It would look ugly and not natural - I couldn't expect it to sound good. I could imagine myself looking to hear all the rumble going through the massive structure to the stylus tip! Brrr! The same way I am not interested in a direct comparison between 927/3012r with a SME30/V system .

I think Micro puts forth a valid, and perhaps, overlooked point.

Gross Generalization and Stating the Obvious Alert:

An arm designed for a suspended turntable will not perform ideally when mated to a non-suspended design.

An arm designed for a non-suspended turntable will not perform ideally when mated to a suspended design.

An arm designed for low-compliance cartridges will not perform ideally when mated to medium/high-compliance cartridge.

An arm designed for medium/high compliance cartridges will not perform ideally when mated to a low compliance cartridge.

The release of the V-series arms occurred shortly before SME released its own turntable, a fully suspended design that shared elements of A.J. Conti’s designs and those of the Hydraulic Reference (I believe David Gammon was the first to use a paddle damped by a silicone bath in a turntable design), mirroring Michell Engineering’s move in which it built the licensed Transcriptor around its own arm (though most came with SME cutouts for the 3009).

Indeed, if there appears to be a commonality of design solutions among the turntables produced at a similar point in history from SME, Basis, Michell and Linn in the 80s and 90s, it’s that they all attempted to isolate the platter via some form of subplatter/suspension.

The SME Series II arm predates the release of the 30/2 by twenty nine years, produced during a time in which unsprung broadcast turntables were the norm. Coincidence? Perhaps not.

Best,

853guy

 

As I stated earlier, all the negative comments started because a group of people were annoyed that people really like this tone arm and made statements about it. That is the definition of trolling since this same group really has no interest in the tone arm for their own personal use. I am not sure why it bothers them that others are (overly) enthusiastic.

The problem is "overly" enthusiastic. Nobody was annoyed that people really like this tone arm. Don't obfuscate please.

What people were annoyed about were overly enthusiastic statements like this is the best arm that SME ever made -- without sufficient supporting evidence.

 

Really ? You, ACK and Al started ALL of this Bullshit and polluted this thread ! and it's not the first time either.

This is patently false, Christian, and you know it.

Unsupported claims like this one of yours,

we are talking tone arms and yes, the 3012R was and still is the pinnacle for SME. You should try one out.

have started the objections.

 

The problem is "overly" enthusiastic. Nobody was annoyed that people really like this tone arm. Don't obfuscate please.

What people were annoyed about were overly enthusiastic statements like this is the best arm that SME ever made -- without sufficient supporting evidence.

Why do they have to provide sufficient evidence? This isn't a court case.

Plus, Tang and Christian have many turntables and many arms and seems to put the SME 3012R close to the top. What exactly are you people looking for? Unlike most others who have commented they have actually listened to it in their systems, as close to a controlled experiment as one can get.

 

Hello, “nobody” here...

I have experience with these SME tonearms, both the 3012r and the V-12 (Kondo version) they are both wonderful performers...you can either make your choice for one, or have both. Either way, I think that you could/can be happy.

Cheers!
ALF

Great, thanks for your feedback!

 

Why do they have to provide sufficient evidence? This isn't a court case.\

They don't have to present evidence if they claim that this is one of the greatest, or even the greatest, arm they have heard. It's their enthusiasm speaking, why object?

But if they claim that it's the best arm SME has ever made, they have to present evidence. They didn't. Those who made the claim have not compared the 3012R and V-12 side by side.

 

They don't have to present evidence if they claim that this is one of the greatest, or even the greatest, arm they have heard.

But if they claim that it's the best arm SME has ever made, they have to present evidence. They didn't. Those who made the claim have not compared the 3012R and V-12 side by side.

Go check out DaveyF's Basis Super Arm thread in which he says "The arm that I happen to believe is currently the most resolving arm I have ever heard". I don't see any evidence or even a discussion under what circumstances he heard the arm. He is asking SME 3012R users for the same "evidence" that he didn't provide in his thread.

 

Quite why it's incongruous that older designs can on balance best current designs, I'm unsure about.
I've heard on good authority that the upper echelon of current Mercedes management are desperate to replicate the bulletproof nature of 80s and 90s Mercs, but since those designers are now all past it, they just can't.
Citröens today are a shadow of the Post War-1970s generation cars created in a Hot House engineering environment.
It's no surprise that SME would move to the V generation design to appear to stay ahead in the marketplace, I mean NEW is ALWAYS better???!!!

 

Quite why it's incongruous that older designs can on balance best current designs, I'm unsure about.
I've heard on good authority that the upper echelon of current Mercedes management are desperate to replicate the bulletproof nature of 80s and 90s Mercs, but since those designers are now all past it, they just can't.
Citröens today are a shadow of the Post War-1970s generation cars created in a Hot House engineering environment.
It's no surprise that SME would move to the V generation design to appear to stay ahead in the marketplace, I mean NEW is ALWAYS better???!!!

Many people feel that today's vacuum tubes are inferior to those made in the mid-1900s. This could be due to the metals and materials used back then.

(I was going to say "most" and not "many" but then people would ask me for statistical support).

 

Go check out DaveyF's Basis Super Arm thread in which he says "The arm that I happen to believe is currently the most resolving arm I have ever heard". I don't see any evidence or even a discussion under what circumstances he heard the arm. He is asking SME 3012R users for the same "evidence" that he didn't provide in his thread.

As I pointed out, there is a crucial difference between "I have ever heard", and "the best ever made".

The former claim carries the implied subjectivity that shields it from strenuous objection, the latter carries an implied objectivity that needs to be supported with evidence.

 

As I pointed out, there is a crucial difference between "I have ever heard", and "the best ever made".

The former claim carries the implied subjectivity that shields it from strenuous objection, the latter carries an implied objectivity that needs to be supported with evidence.

I didn’t realize people needed to choose their words so carefully on a hobby forum where we all know everthing is just an opinion. Nothing is absolute.

 

Wow

Just woke up to find 6-7 pages of trench type combat.

But if they claim that it's the best arm SME has ever made, they have to present evidence. They didn't. Those who made the claim have not compared the 3012R and V-12 side by side.

AgainI am no expert but I do own an 3012R. Perhaps the comment might be more acceptable to all if we could agree that the V12 is engineered better BUT the SME 3012 sounds better. I am sure we can all agree that in this hobby, not everything made better, in fact sounds better. And finally why is at a bad thing that a vintage product can sound better than a current product. I am betting that all of us have had some piece of equipment that we regret having sold. I know I do

Further, how abut looking at some vintage products such as horn speakers. All too many of the vintage speakers eclipse many if not most of the current horn speaker productions. So also with tubes. I use vintage tubes in my system because they sound better than the current ones.

So looking back on this thread I see absolutely nothing that a bunch of adult grown men have found a vintage tone arm that to their ears provides all the music they want and enjoy. How is this any different than Davey making his proclamation about the Basis tone arm being the best without sufficient evidence to back this up

Once again this thread is about the 3012R not the V12, the Basis, the SAT, Durand or any others. As a result I will let these 6-7 pages stand without removal just so that we know both sides have gotten it all out of their systems so that we can move on and discuss the OP of this thread

As a result all of the sniping must stop from this point on

 

I didn’t realize people needed to choose their words so carefully on a hobby forum where we all know everthing is just an opinion. Nothing is absolute.

Nothing is absolute, indeed. And it's all just opinion, indeed.

But there is a difference between an enthusiastic claim that they REALLY like a product, and the urge to make the claim of superiority absolute, "the best arm SME ever made" -- without sufficient evidence.

 

The problem is "overly" enthusiastic. Nobody was annoyed that people really like this tone arm. Don't obfuscate please.

What people were annoyed about were overly enthusiastic statements like this is the best arm that SME ever made -- without sufficient supporting evidence.

I can not see how WBF readers can be annoyed with overly enthusiastic statements. They show in most of our threads. Words like "the best", "killed", "supreme" show daily. And sorry, in what was being debated, the only supporting evidence is listening.

Also if people are really interested in history of audio they should carry the proper research in the proper old sources - not go on repeating the same audio gossip that propagates circularly in the internet. Paper magazines had interviews with the SME people, the appearance of the SME V in the middle 80s was a big audio event.

 

And sorry, in what was being debated, the only supporting evidence is listening.

Correct. An evidence that has been lacking when it came to comparisons.

 

Wow

Just woke up to find 6-7 pages of trench type combat.

As a result all of the sniping must stop from this point on

I'm not so sure our friend from the Greater Boston area who doesn't even own a turntable get's it. I agree let's get back on topic.

 

Correct. An evidence that has been lacking when it came to comparisons.

Tang's, Christian's and David's listening experience is lacking? There is nothing they could say that would suffice as "evidence." Even if they listened to all the SME arms in their systems someone would say that their turntables didn't bring the best out of the V12.

 

I'm not so sure our friend from the Greater Boston area who doesn't even own a turntable get's it. I agree let's get back on topic.

I don't reply to ad hominems.