Solid state amps that emulate tube amps but don't try to copy them...

[bonzo75]

Either the NAT will work just fine on the Diva bass...no matter what Rich is telling. BTW, the original Diva spec was that the speakers could hit 118db with 100 watts at 4 or 5 meters (can't remembe anymore). That is for a pair.

My experience of playing with amps on a Diva and the upper section of a Grand (which is basically a souped up Diva) was that a single pair of SE2SEs or Transmitters would be just fine. Now if you have a large room or listen extremely loud that might not still be true. We got good results from tube amps because the bass panel's imedance is quite uniform and not too low (around 3-4 ohms). Sensitivity is around 85-86db as well. So, a 100 watt tube amp, if it has GOOD output transformers, would be more than enough. Flo had is SE2SE measured and it was putting out well over 100 watts before clipping. Transmitters are rated well over 100 watts as well. Should work like a charm.

I have heard Flo's Transmitters both with the high power setting and the low power setting (on which they work fine, with around 50w). But Spirit's room is too big - 40 ft by 18ft

 

[spiritofmusic]

Bonzo is right, my room is a tad challenging, 18' X 38', average 7' high (max height midline 10', min height side walls 4'), just short of 700 sq ft/5000 cub ft
Morricab, Florian had his Transmitters measured as 100W stable before clipping, not the SE2SEs, these are my amps and are probably good to 50W

I certainly could start with buying the Divas, running my pre existing SE2SEs on the mids and treble ribbons, and try out my existing Hovland Radia SS/NAT Transmitters/Aesthetix Atlas/top draw SS Class A eg Gryphon Antileon, to find both what is best for powering the bass ribbons and the best sonic blend with my triodes

 

[Hyperion]

Interesting challenge here

No SS amp will reach the level of lifelike and organic tone, body, texture, ease and flow of the best SET amplifiers imo. Combining a SET amp with a SS amp could be a winning combination, but this is something you really have to try at home within the context of your own system. Anything else would be too risky.

I suggest looking at: Ypsilon Aelius II, BAT VK-655SE, Karan KA S600/M900/M2000 or the Aesthetix Atlas monos. Tenor are up there among the best as well - at a price.

Find an experienced, generous local dealer if possible and bring a good friend to help you with the lifting

/ Marcus

 

[bonzo75]

How are the Karan models different from 450 and 1200, just wattage?

 

[Zero000]

Justin, I totally get your advice on taking any potential Apogees to bake offs and trying amps to keep spend/frustration ratio to a minimum, but at c.100kg for and 6' X 2.5' for each Diva, this is not going to happen
I fully agree that it's more complex than it might appear to get this tubes on mids and treble ribbons/SS or hybrid amp on bass ribbons synergy to work
No doubt my Zus are beyond simple in comparison, full range drivers lapping up SETs, Class D Hypex amps to the subs which only kick in below 35 Hz

Marc - you hold the bake-off and they come to you! They'll come because no one has Divas in this country... well, pretty much no one. You'll be a super hero and no doubt I will come with Ked at some stage.

I did it twice i.e. held two bake-offs. Had some good amps including some very expensive ones like Rowland 301s and associated Rowland pre.

 

[morricab]

Bonzo is right, my room is a tad challenging, 18' X 38', average 7' high (max height midline 10', min height side walls 4'), just short of 700 sq ft/5000 cub ft
Morricab, Florian had his Transmitters measured as 100W stable before clipping, not the SE2SEs, these are my amps and are probably good to 50W

I certainly could start with buying the Divas, running my pre existing SE2SEs on the mids and treble ribbons, and try out my existing Hovland Radia SS/NAT Transmitters/Aesthetix Atlas/top draw SS Class A eg Gryphon Antileon, to find both what is best for powering the bass ribbons and the best sonic blend with my triodes

No, you are wrong, he had the SE2SEs measured...I saw the data with my own eyes and they were well over 100 watts (they go into Class A2 I suppose). He also had the SE3 and SE1s all measured (the SE1s made 15 watts Class A1 power).

Again, I would say try runnig it full range first and then add the SS/hybrid if you feel the need later. You might be surprised.

Maybe your room is huge but how far from the back wall are the speakers and how far do you actually sit from them? I never sit more than about 4 meters from my speakers...usually more like 3 meters.

 

[morricab]

Interesting challenge here

No SS amp will reach the level of lifelike and organic tone, body, texture, ease and flow of the best SET amplifiers imo. Combining a SET amp with a SS amp could be a winning combination, but this is something you really have to try at home within the context of your own system. Anything else would be too risky.

I suggest looking at: Ypsilon Aelius II, BAT VK-655SE, Karan KA S600/M900/M2000 or the Aesthetix Atlas monos. Tenor are up there among the best as well - at a price.

Find an experienced, generous local dealer if possible and bring a good friend to help you with the lifting

/ Marcus

I agree, although Mike Lavigne seems to think otherwise...

As for the Ypsilon Aelius, that might be a great solution to run the speaker fullrange rather than splitting between different amps, which I have never found to work well unless the amps are all the same model.

 

[morricab]

Marc - you hold the bake-off and they come to you! They'll come because no one has Divas in this country... well, pretty much no one. You'll be a super hero and no doubt I will come with Ked at some stage.

I did it twice i.e. held two bake-offs. Had some good amps including some very expensive ones like Rowland 301s and associated Rowland pre.

Tell me where it is (England??) and I would be willing to come too!

 

[bonzo75]

Marc - you hold the bake-off and they come to you! They'll come because no one has Divas in this country... well, pretty much no one. You'll be a super hero and no doubt I will come with Ked at some stage.

I did it twice i.e. held two bake-offs. Had some good amps including some very expensive ones like Rowland 301s and associated Rowland pre.

Unfortunately no one here knows divas because they are not in HiFi mags and at HiFi shows. Also, till now, most of the apogee activity was on the apogee forum which attracted only people who already knew about it

 

[spiritofmusic]

Gentlemen, I better have some good coffee, cake and alcohol on tap if you guys are going to do me the favour of visiting me, and others in the UK with their amps
Ked is staying away until I cast my Zus into the North Sea
I find the challenge/outcome tension on the Divas in my large room and with my triodes bias pretty fascinating/daunting
Rich says I MUST run the bass ribbons with lots of power or the whole package will sag at the bottom
Henk backs him up saying they are a prodigious sponge for power
This is as close to a consensus that I really need to think past NATs on the bass ribbons to a choice like Aesthetix Atlas, Ypsilon Aelius, or maybe a dark, rich, tone dense Class A SS like Gryphon Antileon as Audiophile Bill has suggested
Now Morricab is suggesting one pair of NAT triodes like my SE2SEs which spec at 60W but apparently are good to 100W without clipping, COULD work for the whole speaker, and that if I have to stretch to bi amping, I need to keep the same amp, or at least the same brand/topology
So Morricab I guess suggesting single amping with NAT or biamping NAT Transmitter to bass ribbons, SE2SEs to mids/treble ribbons
My idea could be to order the Divas as a "baseline/ultimate/final upgrade in this lifetime" speaker choice
I will have my 200W into 4 Ohms/400 into 2 Hovland Radia SS amp, and my pre existing NAT SE2SEs
Try both separately to begin with, no external crossover, see where I get
Then go for external active crossover, try Hovland on bass ribbons, SE2SEs on mids/treble ribbons, and progressively audition NAT Transmitters, Aesthetix Atlas, Antileon etc over time
Maybe a bake off would bring forth a left field/unexpected combination

I have to say I kinda like this idea, but I've never made an upgrade in audio, certainly at this exalted level, knowing that it wasn't an immediate winner, could likely have poor synergy with my rig as currently is, and spend a long period of time looking for that perfect synergy

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Interesting challenge here

No SS amp will reach the level of lifelike and organic tone, body, texture, ease and flow of the best SET amplifiers imo. Combining a SET amp with a SS amp could be a winning combination, but this is something you really have to try at home within the context of your own system. Anything else would be too risky..............

/ Marcus

I agree, although Mike Lavigne seems to think otherwise......

well......first off.....I do not claim that the dart 458's equal (reach the level of) the best SET's in degrees of all these things mentioned above, but that they possess those best of tube attributes (and none of the 'tubey' colorations/limitations).....while also having the best of solid state's technical advantages of dynamics, authority and low noise.

I could make a specific case that the 458's would exceed the ease and flow of any tube amp, but it would come down to semantics as to how that might be articulated.....and would be very system dependent.

the subject matter of the thread is "to emulate tube amps but don't try to copy them".

and......there are no absolutes......only preferences and opinions.

I certainly enjoy the best SET amplifiers I have heard either within my system or in other systems and recognize their special qualities. having said that my preference is for a more 'out of the way' sort of presentation than the clear added character an SET brings to the equation.

 

[bonzo75]

Gentlemen, I better have some good coffee, cake and alcohol on tap if you guys are going to do me the favour of visiting me, and others in the UK with their amps
Ked is staying away until I cast my Zus into the North Sea
I find the challenge/outcome tension on the Divas in my large room and with my triodes bias pretty fascinating/daunting
Rich says I MUST run the bass ribbons with lots of power or the whole package will sag at the bottom
Henk backs him up saying they are a prodigious sponge for power
This is as close to a consensus that I really need to think past NATs on the bass ribbons to a choice like Aesthetix Atlas, Ypsilon Aelius, or maybe a dark, rich, tone dense Class A SS like Gryphon Antileon as Audiophile Bill has suggested
Now Morricab is suggesting one pair of NAT triodes like my SE2SEs which spec at 60W but apparently are good to 100W without clipping, COULD work for the whole speaker, and that if I have to stretch to bi amping, I need to keep the same amp, or at least the same brand/topology
So Morricab I guess suggesting single amping with NAT or biamping NAT Transmitter to bass ribbons, SE2SEs to mids/treble ribbons
My idea could be to order the Divas as a "baseline/ultimate/final upgrade in this lifetime" speaker choice
I will have my 200W into 4 Ohms/400 into 2 Hovland Radia SS amp, and my pre existing NAT SE2SEs
Try both separately to begin with, no external crossover, see where I get
Then go for external active crossover, try Hovland on bass ribbons, SE2SEs on mids/treble ribbons, and progressively audition NAT Transmitters, Aesthetix Atlas, Antileon etc over time
Maybe a bake off would bring forth a left field/unexpected combination

I have to say I kinda like this idea, but I've never made an upgrade in audio, certainly at this exalted level, knowing that it wasn't an immediate winner, could likely have poor synergy with my rig as currently is, and spend a long period of time looking for that perfect synergy

It should be easy, since you already own the NATs, are a good client of the guy who sells Transmitters, so all you need are a couple of good SS demos

 

[spiritofmusic]

Morricab, my room is 18'/5.5m wide, and 38'/11.5m deep
Height is an issue, midline apex max of 10'/3m, descending with gable eaves right and left to a low point of side walls height 4'/1.3m at max width
700 sq ft/65 sq ms, 5000 cub ft/140 cub ms
This is enabling me to situate the Divas 6-10'/2-3m from front wall, distance to listener 13-16'/4-5m, with plenty of space behind the listener
The limiting factor is the descending gable eaves which means I cannot physically separate the Divas further apart than 6'8"/2m without abutting the roof slope

So there you have it
Other than height concerns, the perfect space for big Apogees, but a challenging space to get synergy with triodes to come off, and real concerns with how hard the bass ribbons need to be driven to energise this room

 

[Zero000]

Morricab, my room is 18'/5.5m wide, and 38'/11.5m deep
Height is an issue, midline apex max of 10'/3m, descending with gable eaves right and left to a low point of side walls height 4'/1.3m at max width
700 sq ft/65 sq ms, 5000 cub ft/140 cub ms
This is enabling me to situate the Divas 6-10'/2-3m from front wall, distance to listener 13-16'/4-5m, with plenty of space behind the listener
The limiting factor is the descending gable eaves which means I cannot physically separate the Divas further apart than 6'8"/2m without abutting the roof slope

So there you have it
Other than height concerns, the perfect space for big Apogees, but a challenging space to get synergy with triodes to come off, and real concerns with how hard the bass ribbons need to be driven to energise this room

I had some ML Ascents in a 30 ft by 12 ft room. Fine at 15 ft listening distance. The Divas will be fine. It is a much more substantial and far superior speaker.

I must say, though, Marc, I don't think I have ever known anyone worrying so much about a loudspeaker purchase! Or go into it in such great depth when you haven't even heard an Apogee.

I blame Ked's brainwashing!

 

[KeithR]

Either the NAT will work just fine on the Diva bass...no matter what Rich is telling. BTW, the original Diva spec was that the speakers could hit 118db with 100 watts at 4 or 5 meters (can't remembe anymore). That is for a pair.

My experience of playing with amps on a Diva and the upper section of a Grand (which is basically a souped up Diva) was that a single pair of SE2SEs or Transmitters would be just fine. Now if you have a large room or listen extremely loud that might not still be true. We got good results from tube amps because the bass panel's imedance is quite uniform and not too low (around 3-4 ohms). Sensitivity is around 85-86db as well. So, a 100 watt tube amp, if it has GOOD output transformers, would be more than enough. Flo had is SE2SE measured and it was putting out well over 100 watts before clipping. Transmitters are rated well over 100 watts as well. Should work like a charm.

at what distortion level? the whole point is to never be close to clipping anyways

 

[KeithR]

No, you are wrong, he had the SE2SEs measured...I saw the data with my own eyes and they were well over 100 watts (they go into Class A2 I suppose). He also had the SE3 and SE1s all measured (the SE1s made 15 watts Class A1 power).

Again, I would say try runnig it full range first and then add the SS/hybrid if you feel the need later. You might be surprised.

Maybe your room is huge but how far from the back wall are the speakers and how far do you actually sit from them? I never sit more than about 4 meters from my speakers...usually more like 3 meters.

why do you want to run an amp in A2 to begin with?

 

[Zero000]

I will have my 200W into 4 Ohms/400 into 2 Hovland Radia SS amp, and my pre existing NAT SE2SEs
Try both separately to begin with, no external crossover, see where I get
Then go for external active crossover, try Hovland on bass ribbons, SE2SEs on mids/treble ribbons, and progressively audition NAT Transmitters, Aesthetix Atlas, Antileon etc over time
Maybe a bake off would bring forth a left field/unexpected combination

I have to say I kinda like this idea, but I've never made an upgrade in audio, certainly at this exalted level, knowing that it wasn't an immediate winner, could likely have poor synergy with my rig as currently is, and spend a long period of time looking for that perfect synergy

This is right, Marc. As long as you hear a pair first and know that is the way you want to go.

You will, rest assured, NEVER find the perfect amp. It doesn't exist. Ked gets upset with me for using some 40 year old Accuphase amps, but the truth is I really like them.

What you will get is a speaker that shows you will absolute certainty the limitations and sonic character of whatever you plug into them. Doubtless you will swap and change amps over time, as each amp will inevitably have advantages over another, and disadvantages.

 

[Zero000]

Unfortunately no one here knows divas because they are not in HiFi mags and at HiFi shows. Also, till now, most of the apogee activity was on the apogee forum which attracted only people who already knew about it

Nah they do, Ked. They appear regularly in Hi-Fi News hailed as some mythical legend. People know about them and will definitely come to a bake-off. Proven twice at my house, and documented on the web.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Keith, I think the point is that the 60W NAT SE2SEs are good to 60W in Class A, and 100 in A2. That's pretty spectacular
Whether I truly believe it is another matter LOL
Justin, Ked is guilty of many things, but brainwashing me is not one of them!
You and Ron are inaccurately diagnosing me. For me, Apogees ownership is just a thought experiment atm . I like to run thru all the possible pitfalls in synergy ahead of demo
I'll be hearing a pair hopefully in a couple of months. I'll correlate that with a visit to Peter to hear Omegas/Transmitters. As my system beds in the new space I'll finally have some data points and see if Apogee fever really strikes me down
But ownership of Apogees will be the most radical switch yet for me and the complexity of the speaker and lack of consensus on its requirements means I cannot take the concept lightly

 

[Zero000]

I'm all for keeping Apoopoogee ownership at low levels, Marc. I wouldn't be seen dead using a common contemporary speaker.

Get something else. Apogees are definitely rubbish, and have had their day. As DDK says. Who wants that rubbish back? Grands? Useless.