Just to clarify speaker is not necessarily that complex. It would work with a single amp, the rest like with anything is tweaks and making it better. In fact with the crossovers outside it makes improving it easier, which more people would have done had all speakers given crossovers outside with single-amping and biamping options. Don't forget my choice is based mainly on the speaker, I have liked the Duetta both with TRL (Rich) and Plinius (Henk) (not necessarily the best SS amp). TRL would be more equivalent of Ayon or the new CJ 275w monos. There will be many SS amps better than Plinius.
Solid state amps that emulate tube amps but don't try to copy them...
- Thread starter spiritofmusic
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Just to clarify speaker is not necessarily that complex. It would work with a single amp, the rest like with anything is tweaks and making it better. In fact with the crossovers outside it makes improving it easier, which more people would have done had all speakers given crossovers outside with single-amping and biamping options. Don't forget my choice is based mainly on the speaker, I have liked the Duetta both with TRL (Rich) and Plinius (Henk) (not necessarily the best SS amp). TRL would be more equivalent of Ayon or the new CJ 275w monos. There will be many SS amps better than Plinius.
Do get that Ked
I've just spoken to Peter re Omegas/NATs demo, and he still advises a single pair of NATs, Transmitters or even Magma NEW on the Omegas
Ie not bi amping, not using active crossover, and is confident NAT can drive the Omegas bass ribbons (whereas this is definitely NOT the consensus on driving Divas or even Duettas bass ribbons)
Btw the Magma NEW sounds like a total beast
Still using a telecoms grade GM100 triode, but the mother is 24" high!
I've just spoken to Peter re Omegas/NATs demo, and he still advises a single pair of NATs, Transmitters or even Magma NEW on the Omegas
Ie not bi amping, not using active crossover, and is confident NAT can drive the Omegas bass ribbons (whereas this is definitely NOT the consensus on driving Divas or even Duettas bass ribbons)
Btw the Magma NEW sounds like a total beast
Still using a telecoms grade GM100 triode, but the mother is 24" high!
Yes Omegas much simpler. The Transmitters were much better than the 70w NATs on it, so the Magma New should be much better, both more power and higher quality.
Basically what I advised you to start with. The speaker is revealing of mismatches caused by different sonic signatures of different make/models of amps. An active xover often has too negative a sonic signature and degrades the whole thing. If you biamp use exact same model top to bottom.
The lack of concensus on Apogee continues, Morricab
One thing does seem certain, and that is SETs, incl NAT, can't cut it on Divas power sponge bass ribbons
By your reckoning I'm going to need to go all SS, or at the very least hybrid/v-fet
Unless you really do feel Divas bass ribbons can be powered by 100 or 120W NATs?
One thing does seem certain, and that is SETs, incl NAT, can't cut it on Divas power sponge bass ribbons
By your reckoning I'm going to need to go all SS, or at the very least hybrid/v-fet
Unless you really do feel Divas bass ribbons can be powered by 100 or 120W NATs?
Lack of consensus? Since when has there ever been anything like that in audio? However, if you read above, Ked is bascially saying that it could work and Peter (whoever he is) said something similar to you. Christoph, who also visits this forum and has had numerous Apogees (still has Studio Grands and Centaur Majors) would tell you something similar seeing as he drives his Studio Grands with either KR Audio VA350 or Kronzilla SX (30 and 50 watts, respectively) in a rather large room. I have experience with Divas and middle power tube amps and it worked quite well. You can believe what you want but I know from lot's of experience with SETs and planars what works and what doesn't. I guees I am done trying to convince you otherwise, although you need to actually do nothing but get the speakers and try them passive with what you have before deciding if you need more. All your hypothesizing is based...well on hearsay and frankly is the old conventional wisdom about Apogees that primarily derived from the first two, very difficult to drive models (the Fullrange and Scintilla). The Diva's bass panel is no more a bass sponge than any other Apogee panel...probably easier than a Caliper or Duettas because it is larger, which means it is somewhat more sensitive.
I never heard the Diva with SET but with 100 watt PP tubes and it was more than adequate and it was not the best tube amp I have heard. I heard the Grand run passive (basically like a Diva) with the SE2SE and it was better than the CAT J2 signature, which is a very good amp in it's own right. I drove Caliper Signatures for a while with Cary CAD-572SE monos (about 20 watts). Worked quite well...perhaps on the limit but still sounded quite nice. What wasn't on the limit was my KR VA350i driving Acoustat Spectra 2200s, which are low sensitivity and a tricky load. In a bigger room about double the power would have been necessary perhaps...something you get from the NAT.
No worries though, you get an active xover and a SS amp for the bass and then in a few months we won't wonder why it didn't work out that well. I have been down this active x with disparate amps and never got it to work well. Could be I did something wrong but I have tried more than once with more than one kind of system. I got it to work well with an Accuphase F25 xover and two KR VA350s though.
Morricab, I'm grateful for your forthright views
I fully understand I am doing a very good impression of a hamster running in a wheel, or a dog running in circles trying to catch its tail LOL
Energetic, but ultimately frustrating
I guess I've been hammering at the subject from different angles to see if any agreed view on amp synergy with Apogees is there to be had
I kinda agree that mixing SS and tubes has the ingredients to be a disaster. That's why a possible alternative that's been suggested is to run my NAT SE2SEs on the mids/treble ribbons with a hybrid like Aesthetix Atlas or Ypsilon Aelius, or even a hybrid/v-fet like AVA Van Alstine, on the bass ribbons, bi amped passively or actively
Of course I can always try my NATs single amping the Divas on day one or even bi amp with Transmitters, or Magmas if I'm brave enough
I guess I'm just a little concerned I will have a pair of high performance speakers that I may struggle to realise their potential
I fully understand I am doing a very good impression of a hamster running in a wheel, or a dog running in circles trying to catch its tail LOL
Energetic, but ultimately frustrating
I guess I've been hammering at the subject from different angles to see if any agreed view on amp synergy with Apogees is there to be had
I kinda agree that mixing SS and tubes has the ingredients to be a disaster. That's why a possible alternative that's been suggested is to run my NAT SE2SEs on the mids/treble ribbons with a hybrid like Aesthetix Atlas or Ypsilon Aelius, or even a hybrid/v-fet like AVA Van Alstine, on the bass ribbons, bi amped passively or actively
Of course I can always try my NATs single amping the Divas on day one or even bi amp with Transmitters, or Magmas if I'm brave enough
I guess I'm just a little concerned I will have a pair of high performance speakers that I may struggle to realise their potential
Hi, for powerful SS amps, how much do fluctuations in the wall supply matter? Are the power supplies of these mega watt SS amps good enough to withstand the 237 - 253v fluctuating voltage from my wall?
I don't want to get this into a balanced power, which conditioner kind of discussion. Just to keep it simple, I prefer to take SS amps out directly from the wall, but worried about this, which is a regular thing in London, that's all.
Also, given that we are 240v as compared to 110v, shouldn't there be sufficient power even at 15 amperage, instead of having to go to 20a circuit?
I don't want to get this into a balanced power, which conditioner kind of discussion. Just to keep it simple, I prefer to take SS amps out directly from the wall, but worried about this, which is a regular thing in London, that's all.
Also, given that we are 240v as compared to 110v, shouldn't there be sufficient power even at 15 amperage, instead of having to go to 20a circuit?
Whatever happened to Henry Ho of H2O Audio? I recall that about 10 years ago he came up with IcePower amps with linear power supplies specifically for use with Apogee speakers.
Don't know but I heard the monoblocks several years ago on a pair of refurbished Apogee Scintillas and the sound was not very good. It was handily outperformed by a Sphinx Project 16, which is a Class A hybrid amp.
Funny I Heard just the opposite. My friend was driving Logans w big tubes but heard about Henry's latest class D and tried it. He said he now uses an intense power supply circuit incl huge caps for plenty of headroom and says it absolutely sings. Unflappable and really nice sound... And u know it's designed for anything Apogees could demand. I think they're about $10k for the pair and easily 300+ and doubling...home trials avail. just shipping fees if u don't like them. Marc?
Haha, Lissnr
With the sale or return fees on this, the AVA Van Alstine hybrid v-fets, and the Sanders Magtech, customs duties and Transatlantic shipping, I'll be getting close to the price of a nice new amp
Morricab is doing his best to keep me wedded to the NATs/Divas concept, maybe going to passive biamping 60W SE2SE triodes to the mids/treble ribbons, and the 120W Transmitter tetrodes to the bass ribbons, the latter having a no cost home trial facility (from my dealer). I would really hope this synergy works on the Divas
With the sale or return fees on this, the AVA Van Alstine hybrid v-fets, and the Sanders Magtech, customs duties and Transatlantic shipping, I'll be getting close to the price of a nice new amp
Morricab is doing his best to keep me wedded to the NATs/Divas concept, maybe going to passive biamping 60W SE2SE triodes to the mids/treble ribbons, and the 120W Transmitter tetrodes to the bass ribbons, the latter having a no cost home trial facility (from my dealer). I would really hope this synergy works on the Divas
Kip is doing Se2se to the mids and Krell KMA 160, refurbed, to the bass of his FR, just to confuse you further.
Marc, I've never heard them but I'm sure your amps have all the ingredients for greatness and would love to hear them just as u described: 120/ woof's, 60/ mids & tweet. Try them first before other amps... But remember one more thing I've been mentioning but don't mean to harp on ( well, a little maybe): Diva's " reception" to your amp(s) is still unknown... But I think Duettas would work well in your room and would be all over your amps like white on wedding dresses with the intrinsic allure of an SET tube / Apogee ribbon marriage...just my 2 cents one last time
Lissnr, keep adding your 2 cents
With everyone adding 2 cents, I'll have the deposit for the deposit for the Divas soon enough
It was Henk, the Dutch official Graz agent for Apogee restores who implored me to go Divas after hearing me talk about Duettas
If not for him I certainly wouldn't have been considering the bigger ribbons
His POV was that in a space like mine, 18x38, 700 sq ft/5000 cub ft, able to have 5-10' to the front wall, 13-16' to the listener, and plenty behind, the space demands Divas, FRs or Grands. Ceiling/amping/financial concerns choose the Divas
His attitude is that the Diva is as benign in the bass ribbons as the Duettas, c.3.5 Ohms, more adept at filling the space with bass, and in being able to be passively/actively bi amped a better practical proposition re driving my space
Rich of TSW kind of agrees, but feels the ability to space the Duettas wider (8'-9' instead of the Divas absolute max of 6'8") means I could sit further back for the correct relationship
He says the Divas are the better load in my room, but the Duettas could be the better choice
Now you have gone from Duetta to Diva to Duetta in your 13.5' X 18' space, Florian shoehorns a pair of Grands into a room not much bigger than yours, what do you feel from your personal experience of how to choose the right Apogee bearing in mind my room is much bigger than yours but I have limits on width of Divas placement, I absolutely adore the toneful and robust sound of muscular NAT triodes, yet need to bi amp Divas and single amp Duettas
There is one overriding reason to go Graz Duettas over Divas. Only with Duettas will I have a UK based dealer/restorer, Jon Oakey of Reality Audio. Going Divas could be done via him, but I would likely have to import from NL or US
With everyone adding 2 cents, I'll have the deposit for the deposit for the Divas soon enough
It was Henk, the Dutch official Graz agent for Apogee restores who implored me to go Divas after hearing me talk about Duettas
If not for him I certainly wouldn't have been considering the bigger ribbons
His POV was that in a space like mine, 18x38, 700 sq ft/5000 cub ft, able to have 5-10' to the front wall, 13-16' to the listener, and plenty behind, the space demands Divas, FRs or Grands. Ceiling/amping/financial concerns choose the Divas
His attitude is that the Diva is as benign in the bass ribbons as the Duettas, c.3.5 Ohms, more adept at filling the space with bass, and in being able to be passively/actively bi amped a better practical proposition re driving my space
Rich of TSW kind of agrees, but feels the ability to space the Duettas wider (8'-9' instead of the Divas absolute max of 6'8") means I could sit further back for the correct relationship
He says the Divas are the better load in my room, but the Duettas could be the better choice
Now you have gone from Duetta to Diva to Duetta in your 13.5' X 18' space, Florian shoehorns a pair of Grands into a room not much bigger than yours, what do you feel from your personal experience of how to choose the right Apogee bearing in mind my room is much bigger than yours but I have limits on width of Divas placement, I absolutely adore the toneful and robust sound of muscular NAT triodes, yet need to bi amp Divas and single amp Duettas
There is one overriding reason to go Graz Duettas over Divas. Only with Duettas will I have a UK based dealer/restorer, Jon Oakey of Reality Audio. Going Divas could be done via him, but I would likely have to import from NL or US
Ked, my confusion on such matters is the Ying to your Yang of not being too fussed about such amp synergy pitfalls LOL
Or is that my Yang to your Ying?
Interesting, Morricab is dead set against mixing tubes and SS on Apogees, but CJFRBW says such concerns are not too pivotal, but seamlesness could be hard to achieve
Kip is obviously getting it right
Or is that my Yang to your Ying?
Interesting, Morricab is dead set against mixing tubes and SS on Apogees, but CJFRBW says such concerns are not too pivotal, but seamlesness could be hard to achieve
Kip is obviously getting it right
Marc, My hesitation on the Divas stems from my personal experience with them. I am not saying that they may very well be excellent in your application. What I am saying however is I believe the duettas are considerably easier to amplify and I also believe they would not be out of place even in a room of your considerable dimensions. I believe the Duettas may easily be driven by one of your amplifiers or by biamping with both of them. I believe the divas may work but I feel it is very likely they may be considerably more work. In conclusion I believe the duetta can be placed such that they will be very satisfying and take full advantage of your current amplifiers. This solves the concern for solid state versus tube amplifier matching A la Divas...Duettas being driven to their best trumps divas that are not perfectly/ ideally reaching their full potential...(2 more cents!). Grant
Lissnr, Kipdent with his soon to be legendary FR setup is posting on the Henk visit thread and giving fascinating insights
One, he is running in a room just a bit smaller than mine, actually similar volume, and he has no issues with the NATs on mids/treble ribbons
BUT...he cannot get tubes to work on the bass ribbons, driving them "direct" with big Old School Krells
Now, since the Divas bass ribbons are very similar (I believe) to the FRs ones, maybe I need to consider big SS to work with my NATs, my current faces being Sanders Magtech monos or AVA Van Alstine v-fet monos
So, can I ask you, does the Duetta swim in a different pool?
That is, if Divas and FRs have to have SS on bass ribbons but NATs ok on the mids/treble ribbons, would the Duettas be different in accommodating 120W grippy NAT Transmitters on the bass ribbons as well as MRT, single passive amping?
Again with the proviso that NOONE knows until you try, but just what user experience and logic suggests
One, he is running in a room just a bit smaller than mine, actually similar volume, and he has no issues with the NATs on mids/treble ribbons
BUT...he cannot get tubes to work on the bass ribbons, driving them "direct" with big Old School Krells
Now, since the Divas bass ribbons are very similar (I believe) to the FRs ones, maybe I need to consider big SS to work with my NATs, my current faces being Sanders Magtech monos or AVA Van Alstine v-fet monos
So, can I ask you, does the Duetta swim in a different pool?
That is, if Divas and FRs have to have SS on bass ribbons but NATs ok on the mids/treble ribbons, would the Duettas be different in accommodating 120W grippy NAT Transmitters on the bass ribbons as well as MRT, single passive amping?
Again with the proviso that NOONE knows until you try, but just what user experience and logic suggests
You have to realize that an electrostat and a ribbon are very different loads and for an ICE amp, which has a lot of negative feedback, the result is not entirely predictable. That said, everyone heard how flat and congested the sound was...perhaps the 1 ohm load was stressing the amps too much? THe owner was very disappointed in what he heard compared to the Sphinx, which really opened up the sound, had natural tonality and decongested the soundstage.