State-of-the-Art Digital

As I have very little experience compared to most of the active folks here, I will pontificate anyway. People are different, people hear dIfferently. One Dac causes issue for that person(1) , but to another sounds better than person(1) choice.. There are no abolutes otherwise we would all buy the same speaker, amp etc. Take this with a grain of salt, I watched an interesting video a few months ago, I believe it was DarkAudio but not sure. He did a blind A/B of uncompressed files(hi-rez) against the exact same track of the exact same album release via MQA (which has compression). He was floored that he choose (i forgot the exact numbers) MQA 13 out of 15 times. So which is best if we go just off his opinion (i extrapolate to This general thread And leave it there).

I'm not sure this is surprising: it's not as if there were not rationale for compressed audio. It's what allows us to still hear mostly everything at extremely low levels of volume, or in the car or anywhere else where there's extraneous noise.

I'm a huge fan of blind and double blind tests when it comes to designing/building gear. I spent many hours comparing MQA to native recording format resolution, same as some years ago MP3 to native recording format resolution. I personally don't like either. But I don't have much exposition to either as I don't listen to compressed music outside of an elevator.

That is, I wish I didn't. What really bugs me is that we're now buying sold music in high-resolution formats whose compression level is the exact same as that of a "remastered for iTunes" MP3 file. What's the point offering such a highly compressed simultaneously as high-resolution PCM download, or on SACD etc.? Major pet peeve alert…

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
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Talking about mark levinson .
My 20 year old levinson dac rips about a 1/4 more detail of the same CD s incl high res. audio cds compared to being played through the meitner MA 2 which is a current model with all the so called higher specs

Resolution isn't music, though. I get scoffed at when I say that to e.g. anyone working at dCS, but I believe all we need is sufficient resolution, which in turn may be thought of as different for every individual. Which do you like better and use more often?

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
Thanks. I was particularly curious about the use of the Kondo KSL DAC. I have a mint one facing me and I am still considering if I should ask Emile for a SPDIF card for the Extreme to listen to it in streamer/server mode, the KSL accepts SPDIF up to 24/96 - it covers 95% of the music I listen.

Have you tried using the Vivaldi Upsampler in Clone Mode as renderer for the Kondo?

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
And? I have no qualms admitting I like other brands, too. It's the other way round, as you may have noticed. You'll notice that if it weren't for Kedar and you bringing it up, that I didn't mention what I personally use, let alone exclusively, nor that I believe nothing else matters, nor tell anyone what to buy, and least of all, that they're delusional in their preferences, if indeed they have any. I realize this site and this thread are supposed to be about "what's best". Can't one simply be curious rather than judgmental? I like different stuff for different reasons. And I know you do too: you like Living Voice/Kondo same as I, as well as systems that to me are as far removed sonically from that type of sound as anything else that's been discussed in this thread. I do not remember wondering about the open-mindedness of others.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

People might have a different view of any comments you make regarding DCS or other, quite opposite DACs if they know you own one from the stable of that particular horse. If you are completely devoid of bias then you are perhaps the only man on Earth to overcome that inhernt issue in human psychology...
 
NOS DACs give me migraines? Not my experience at all. Some NOS DACs maybe.

Some DACs give me migraines, and I can tell within a split-second, just as if I were looking into fluorescent light, virtually the same flinching, muscles tightening - after 35 years of suffering from migraines one just knows when to leave the room and avoid a trigger. One of my audiophile buddies who lives in Zürich has it worse than me, and it didn't come as a surprise to me that when I was first invited to his house, that he's been listening with dCS for a decade or two, someone who listens a lot and not just as hobby, also professionally.

I do not remember claiming at any time nor any place that I know exactly why some DACs do this, which in particular do it etc. After first posting about this a few years ago, Mark Levinson called me a number of times as he was interested in the subject, and he some suggestions about what the reason(s) might be, but you'll realize he's primarily a musician and collector of ideas rather than an engineer. It's definitely got to do with digital playback, possibly out-of-band noise and other digital artifacts, some of which may be inaudible in the common sense of the term.

What I do know is there are more brands that build DACs I could live with, again, I'm someone who listens to a lot of music given I have the time to do so, so anything that I can't listen to for half a minute is an instant failure.

I also have suspicions about some chip sets such as ESS that irrespective of the brand of DAC it's being used in immediately make me feel like a cat that's being brushed against the grain.

Having said that, it may not be the chip sets but the implementation. Maybe there are engineers on these forums who can give you a more helpful answer. If I had to guess, I'm convinced it's not what we perceive as "sound" and/or what we hear subjectively, but digital artifacts, something, anything that DOES NOT BELONG THERE. Something that could be measured if only we knew what to look for.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

I didn't make it up, you stated it to me on at least two different occasions. Once was at MG's home and the other was at my place. We had quite a lengthy discussion about it as I was trying to understand how that could be possible. The details of your rationale for why is a bit fuzzy to me now but the fact of it was something I remember clearly because it was so surprising.
 
I didn't make it up, you stated it to me on at least two different occasions. Once was at MG's home and the other was at my place. We had quite a lengthy discussion about it as I was trying to understand how that could be possible. The details of your rationale for why is a bit fuzzy to me now but the fact of it was something I remember clearly because it was so surprising.

I get it now: I walked out on, or intended to walk out on, the playback of a particular NOS DAC - which in no way means I have a problem with NOS DACs in general. I'm not sure you want to discuss this here, entirely up to you.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
I'm wondering where you picked that up, and trying to figure out in what way you suspect oversampling may improve matters?

What Mark Levinson mentioned among other was what he called the PCM step function (at least I'm hoping to quote him correctly). It's probably true of all migraine patients that to be exposed to a stroboscope is a trigger. Mark wondered if people with this sensitivity wouldn't have an easier time listening to DSD than PCM.

He may be onto something, but I'm not sure it's that easy. When I listen to a dCS DAC playing back DSD using Filter 1 (roughly 90kHz), I'm noticing I'm feeling less relaxed than using their new Filter 5 they added in Version 2.0 - pointing to out-of-band noise as one possible problem. The earlier passively filtered Lampizator DSD board also sounded completely free of whatever we want to call this quality, even if at the cost of some treble extension (actually, I hear differences in treble extension in the dCS filter choices as well, but nowhere as extreme).

Referring to the early Lampizator DSD board, I'm reminded of a cheap passively filtered PCM DAC I loved and gave away, or the Kondo measurement protocol that showed rolloff at either end of the frequency range (which, as microstrip mentions further above, makes it sound less extended) - it's true I'd consider that a lesser price to pay for being able to enjoy music over long periods of time if indeed it were the only possible solution.

Maybe when others refer to "listening fatigue", they're referring to the exact same as I do, yet they're simply more immune? It's true that when I first bought dCS, it was because I heard it at a trade fair where Alfred Rudolph of Acapella used a Delius and Purcell combo as source component, and I noticed how relaxed I felt. No flinching as it were. No muscular tension.

I have no problem admitting that to me, this has priority over how "beautiful" playback sounds. It does occasionally make me wonder if those who can listen to repulsive digital playback are truly nonsensitive, or if they would notice if they paid attention. Be that as it may, I can't speak for others…

I'm wondering if this whole discussion is off-topic, then again, I believe it can't be because these are clearly flaws in the playback and not the music. In the same vein as I don't understand how people can work in offices lighted by fluorescent tubes, I don't think DACs are supposed to add anything whatsoever of their own to music playback, even if the happy nonsensitive do not feel bothered.

Having said that, I understand this may be thought of as having nothing to do with what's commonly called "sound", if a majority can't tell a difference. So maybe these considerations don't belong here.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

While there certainly are differences between DACs in terms of listenability, "digititis" and listening fatigue, it is often not just simply solely about the DAC. Things are more complex than just one component, even though a DAC is obviously important.

After my system upgrades two and a half years ago, visitors who heard my system tended to complain about just that, "digititis" and treble issues, and a hard and harsh sound. While I was less sensitive when it came to that, they most certainly had a point.

Yet it turns out it was not the DAC, which at least I had assumed to at least partially be the culprit, even though I am a long term fan of digital and did not quite share the same sensitivities as my vinyl loving friends. Their criticism, however, did make me more sensitive to the issues over time.

As I described above, the issues were of an acoustic nature, and there were also problems elsewhere in the electronic chain, with my previous passive preamp which was replaced by an Octave HP 700.

When it came to acoustics, the effect of installing ceiling diffusers was particularly profound. I could not believe how much of HF distortions they removed from my room! (I have to point out though that my ceiling was particularly problematic, in other rooms the effect of ceiling diffusers may be less drastic.) The preamp change revealed far more treble purity than I had suspected my DAC could deliver in my system. All in all, the problem is now solved to a very large degree.

A vinyl loving friend, who was sensitive to the issues in my room, now alternates between voicing no complaints at all and finding that any problems have at least been greatly mitigated, which sounds about right. He also appears to experience much less listening fatigue than before.

I do know that my DAC is capable of even more pure treble, which triggers no sensitivities of "digititis" whatsoever, at least to my ears. In another friends' system (who uses the exact same digital set-up as mine, not just the DAC) it sounds through speakers where the tweeter is even better than the already very good one of my speakers. Also, while his ceiling gives problems as well, it does not cause the drastic HF distortions that mine did, and from which undoubtedly a trace remains in my room even after installation of the ceiling diffusers.

***

So yes, the DAC itself is important, but adverse interactions within the system and with the room can cause a toxic cocktail that can make it seem that the digital is at fault even when it is not.

So when you enter a room with a system that is unknown to you, you cannot stand the sound, and ascribe the fatigue to the DAC, think again. It may be the DAC, yes, but it may be also be other factors -- either partially or entirely.

I suspect that for some unclear reason vinyl does not expose room/system problems in quite the same ruthless manner as digital does.

***

(For the sake of accuracy I should mention that between ceiling diffusers and preamp change I upgraded the Yggdrasil DAC from version 1 to the current version 2. Yet based on several data points I have to assume that this upgrade had a much smaller effect on treble quality and lack of listening fatigue than the other changes to room and system mentioned.)
 
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People might have a different view of any comments you make regarding DCS or other, quite opposite DACs if they know you own one from the stable of that particular horse. If you are completely devoid of bias then you are perhaps the only man on Earth to overcome that inhernt issue in human psychology...

You mean to say I have a bias in favor of DACs that won't trigger a migraine. That's correct. Twenty or so years ago a DAC like that was an exception, and I was happy to finally be able to listen to music for hours as I'd hitherto only been able with analogue playback (tape and vinyl).

dCS is in no way unique in this respect today. If anything, when I listen to other DACs whose sound l like (a lot), e.g. the different Lampizator models, incarnations, generations, updates, tube rolling, whatnot, I sometimes had a hard time listening to favorite recordings that I know by heart, realizing some parts were missing, with the earlier separate DSD or R2R boards. andromedaaudio above made similar comment about his Mark Levinson and Meitner. It's difficult it is to go back and accept a lower resolution playback. As if one instantly got older and were wondering if one's eyesight and hearing were diminished. As soon as music is being played back that I don't know, not missing anything, I'm enjoying what I'm hearing.

I said this several times: I like different DACs for different reasons. If I had the means, I'd surely own several, as well as upgrade in a blink when something better comes along. My emotional attachment to gear doesn't extend beyond the loudspeakers I built with my own hands. That I'll admit is different: my own blood, sweat and tears.

I'm starting to think the problem is twofold: firstly, you appear to be offended because I spoke my mind a couple of times (in hindsight, I've been wondering if I got invited that one time precisely because I'm occasionally taking the freedom to be blunt). Transactional analysis and classic rhetorics has it that one shouldn't ask questions if one doesn't want to hear the answers. Get over it. Secondly, my ears don't have eyes: I listen. I don't assume, seeing a pair of horns and a stack of tube electronics, to get one type of sound, versus seeing e.g. a dCS component, automatically jumping to the conclusion that I'm going to hear something diametrically opposed.

Now, would it might make it easier to explain a relative absence of an expectation bias stating that I own or have owned, among other, dCS components? It seems to me of more value in the context of a thread like this to point out that I have heard more systems with dCS source components that I didn't like than ones I do. I don't understand those people, and if they made their ill-fated choice upon the recommendation of others, I certainly do not want to be quoted by anyone going down this path that I advised them to take it.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
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Have you tried using the Vivaldi Upsampler in Clone Mode as renderer for the Kondo?

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

Yes, I sometimes connected it to the Upsampler - but then upsample to 96 kHz. Or when listening to Qobuz or the Extreme. But I never listened carefully for differences!
 
In general I think there are two paths audiophiles can choose from in order to arrive at a satisfying sound:

1) cover up the flaws
2) address the flaws

My Yggdrasil 2 DAC is also a rather neutral, and extremely resolving, revealing DAC. When I upgraded my system to a better tube amp with more extended highs, and to monitors that are much more resolving, 'outspoken' and extended in the highs that my previous ones from the same company (Reference 3A), many things changed for the better. But there were also some problems that were not as evident before with the previously less resolving sound, including a somewhat 'hard' sound and 'digititis' in the treble.

I could have easily covered up the problems, including with a more colored, "beautiful" sounding DAC, a more rolled-off tube amp or less neutral signal cables. Yet then I would have lost resolution and truthfulness to the music. Instead I decided to confront the problems head on, which were both of an acoustic and an electronic nature.

I had worked on my room acoustics already for years. Yet in order to further fix my room acoustics, I carefully chose another carpet around the listening area, covering up more of the wooden floor but without introducing too much absorption, redistributed diffuser panels in my room and lastly, installed ceiling diffusers, to great effect. I also adjusted speaker set-up. Finally, in order to address problems in the electronic chain, I switched preamps and purchased the one which, by design, matches my power amp (now my system has an Octave HP700/RE320 pre/power combo).

Not only did I successfully address the somewhat 'hard' sound and 'digititis' in the treble. In the process, resolution and truthfulness to musical timbre dramatically increased further. I would have lost these with attempts to cover up rather than address problems. The end result is so much more musically satisfying, exciting and engaging than it would have been in the cover-up scenario, even though with the latter I could have arrived much quicker at a 'pleasing' sound. It seems though that many audiophiles choose the ultimately less satisfying short-cut.

When audiophiles choose the cover-up short cut, they often put blame on components that do not deserve it. In their system context, a colored and objectively inferior component may then sound 'better'.

You are definitely the exception, not the rule regarding this. It's refreshing. Very few audiophiles are willing to go through what you have. They are more prone to cover up the problems or return the pieces that uncovered them, even worse.

It amazes me how many audiophiles have poor preamps that are a the crux of the problem or cables that should be thrown in the trash. Or they are used to so much jitter that they consider it euphonic. Very few are aware that more detail and more dynamics is usually the right track, not the garden path. They choose the garden path instead so much of the time, it's irritating. Particularly when you sold them the component that is delivering all of the detail and they just end-up returning it.:rolleyes:
 
Yes, I sometimes connected it to the Upsampler - but then upsample to 96 kHz. Or when listening to Qobuz or the Extreme. But I never listened carefully for differences!

I see. It was just a thought, that it might help you to make up your mind regarding the addition of a dedicated output on your SGM Extreme.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
I see. It was just a thought, that it might help you to make up your mind regarding the addition of a dedicated output on your SGM Extreme.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

I must recognize that adding the dedicated output to the Extreme is mostly an audiophile curiosity. In reality it is a incoherent move, as I do not consider selling the Vivaldi upsampler, the Vivaldi is my preferred DAC by a wide margin and probably the Kondo will leave one of those days, a few people inquired about it ...
 
I must recognize that adding the dedicated output to the Extreme is mostly an audiophile curiosity. In reality it is a incoherent move, as I do not consider selling the Vivaldi upsampler, the Vivaldi is my preferred DAC by a wide margin and probably the Kondo will leave one of those days, a few people inquired about it ...

I believe I've made it sufficiently clear that I wouldn't want to part with either, and not because I think of them as diametrically opposed, as some here appear to do.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
(...) Also, weren’t you the one telling me that non-oversampling DACs give you a migraine? The Kondo DAC is just such a DAC I believe. Hmmm...

The latest version of the Kondo KSL DAC - the one I own - upsamples to 24/96 . A few Kondo users I have contacted told me that this was the better sounding version of it, it was why I got it. Surely, I never compared the original and the latest versions.
 
I believe I've made it sufficiently clear that I wouldn't want to part with either, and not because I think of them as diametrically opposed, as some here appear to do.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

Yes, thanks, I noticed it. But I will probably move house sometime this year and I do not want to carry all the equipment with me, my signature only lists part of it ...
 
The latest version of the Kondo KSL DAC - the one I own - upsamples to 24/96 . A few Kondo users I have contacted told me that this was the better sounding version of it, it was why I got it. Surely, I never compared the original and the latest versions.

I didn't know that. As to the migraine bit, I'm hoping you realize I wasn't referring to the Kondo in any incarnation that I have heard as acting as a trigger, and that I have no clue what NOS would have to do with it, except that incidentally, one of the many DACs I've heard that I do recognize as potential migraine triggers appears to have been a NOS one. If anything, upsampling may alleviate the problem to an extent, not sure, as I've yet to hear upsampling I'd care to engage except for a couple of dCS Upsamplers, so I haven't really tried it on a DAC that does trigger migraines. Software/media player upsampling I've heard (spent whole weekends) inevitably resulted in a plasticky, synthetic sound that I wouldn't want to listen to anyhow. But oversampling?

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
I didn't know that. As to the migraine bit, I'm hoping you realize I wasn't referring to the Kondo in any incarnation that I have heard as acting as a trigger, and that I have no clue what NOS would have to do with it, except that incidentally, one of the many DACs I've heard that I do recognize as potential migraine triggers appears to have been a NOS one. If anything, upsampling may alleviate the problem to an extent, not sure, as I've yet to hear upsampling I'd care to engage except for a couple of dCS Upsamplers, so I haven't really tried it on a DAC that does trigger migraines. Software/media player upsampling I've heard (spent whole weekends) inevitably resulted in a plasticky, synthetic sound that I wouldn't want to listen to anyhow. But oversampling?

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

I must say that I lack confirmation of the exact details of the 24/96 operation of the Kondo KSL DAC. The only technical reference I could find was a rather poor translation of a japanese note, and sometimes these translations are very inaccurate. Please see the Black Forrest page :
https://www.blackforestaudio.de/cms/front_content.php?idcat=45
 
I didn't know that. As to the migraine bit, I'm hoping you realize I wasn't referring to the Kondo in any incarnation that I have heard as acting as a trigger, and that I have no clue what NOS would have to do with it, except that incidentally, one of the many DACs I've heard that I do recognize as potential migraine triggers appears to have been a NOS one. If anything, upsampling may alleviate the problem to an extent, not sure, as I've yet to hear upsampling I'd care to engage except for a couple of dCS Upsamplers, so I haven't really tried it on a DAC that does trigger migraines. Software/media player upsampling I've heard (spent whole weekends) inevitably resulted in a plasticky, synthetic sound that I wouldn't want to listen to anyhow. But oversampling?

Needless to say, I understand that one might speculate that oversampling makes it possible to modify a lowpass filter in such a way as to eliminate (somewhat more) frequency content above the half sampling frequency point, in turn making it possible to use a more benign aliasing filter. As I believe a look at a measuring protocol of a (at least an earlier generation) Kondo DAC will make clear, there will be no energy left at those frequencies anyhow.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
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I must say that I lack confirmation of the exact details of the 24/96 operation of the Kondo KSL DAC. The only technical reference I could find was a rather poor translation of a japanese note, and sometimes these translations are very inaccurate. Please see the Black Forrest page :
https://www.blackforestaudio.de/cms/front_content.php?idcat=45

On that page, and in bold print, it says it's non-oversampling (i.e. as the earlier models). (Note I've been looking at the German version of the page, in case there's more than one.) If that is correct, it makes sense to try dCS upsampling with the Kondo, but also to compare that to Clone Mode (setting In = Out alone won't make the Upsampler output bit-perfect samples, one needs to engage Clone Mode to keep the Upsampler from adding zeroes to e.g. 16-bit and output 24-bit word samples).

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
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