Streaming Vinyl

[Audiophile Bill]

Hi,

I heard from Uli:

"if you use JRiver as playback machine you should try to use a VST plugin like DeClick at http://acondigital.com/products/restoration-suite/ or http://www.sonnoxplugins.com/pub/plugins/products/Restore-DeClicker_Info.htm"

Best regards
Uli

 

[dallasjustice]

That's great info! Uli is the man! I'll try it out. But I don't hear very much surface noise with most albums.

Hi,

I heard from Uli:

"if you use JRiver as playback machine you should try to use a VST plugin like DeClick at http://acondigital.com/products/restoration-suite/ or http://www.sonnoxplugins.com/pub/plugins/products/Restore-DeClicker_Info.htm"

Best regards
Uli

 

[Audiophile Bill]

That's great info! Uli is the man! I'll try it out. But I don't hear very much surface noise with most albums.

Sure - no probs. Not sure whether you have some really old stuff that has been played to death - might make it listenable.

 

[jdubs]

Michael, any update on getting a custom RIAA curve via convolution, together?

-Jim

 

[dallasjustice]

Michael, any update on getting a custom RIAA curve via convolution, together?

-Jim

I talked to Uli some more. I am now playing with doing log sweeps using feickert adjust plus. I bit the bullet and got a decent phono pre. The reason for doing so is that I want to measure my cartridge with various loads. I can't do that with only a mic pre. I'm still working on it. I believe Bernt is still interested in TT measurements as well.

 

[jdubs]

I talked to Uli some more. I am now playing with doing log sweeps using feickert adjust plus. I bit the bullet and got a decent phono pre. The reason for doing so is that I want to measure my cartridge with various loads. I can't do that with only a mic pre. I'm still working on it. I believe Bernt is still interested in TT measurements as well.

You got a phonostage just to test different loading levels? Are you still planning on doing riaa in the digital realm? Making loading cables is pretty easy to do - I could totally help you out if needed.

I got my setup going. TT to TC Impact Twin via RCA to TS cables. I have an MM cartridge so I soldered in my own 49.3kohm resistors so that the cartridge sees right at 47Kohm. The length of my cables plus the type of cable get's the me a capacitance level that is right in the preferable range for my cartridge.

The TC Impact Twin is ASIO multi-client so no issues using it as an input and output device in JRiver. I set it up to perform its A->D at 192khz.

How does it sounds?! Amazing. I've been experimenting with a couple of different RIAA correction methods including via convolution and using Voxengo CurveEQ which has a built in RIAA correction curve.

The whole thing just "works" and it works brilliantly, imo!!

-Jim

 

[dallasjustice]

I sold my TT. I'm done with vinyl. This is why:

I discovered that although LPs offer some nice advantages, the disadvantages outweigh those advantages in my system. The disadvantage is simply poor bass linearity. In most systems very low frequency bass linearity doesnt matter much. In my system, I'm using subs and digital crossovers to produce "flat" bass down to 20hz. However, I can only ensure the bass quality with digital sources. With vinyl super low frequencies are limited by the medium. There's no consistency from disc to disc at super low frequencies. I know if I were more patient I could come up with a solution to this problem which would involve numerous low frequency EQs and change them with every disc. However, I am not that patient. I admit it. I just want to hear music. There's only so much tweaking I can stand. I say no to vinyl but in saying no to vinyl, I say yes to music. The end.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I sold my TT. I'm done with vinyl. This is why:

I discovered that although LPs offer some nice advantages, the disadvantages outweigh those advantages in my system. The disadvantage is simply poor bass linearity. In most systems very low frequency bass linearity doesnt matter much. In my system, I'm using subs and digital crossovers to produce "flat" bass down to 20hz. However, I can only ensure the bass quality with digital sources. With vinyl super low frequencies are limited by the medium. There's no consistency from disc to disc at super low frequencies. I know if I were more patient I could come up with a solution to this problem which would involve numerous low frequency EQs and change them with every disc. However, I am not that patient. I admit it. I just want to hear music. There's only so much tweaking I can stand. I say no to vinyl but in saying no to vinyl, I say yes to music. The end.

Glad you found a solution that you are happy with. It is sad though - what is happening to your LP collection?

 

[dallasjustice]

Glad you found a solution that you are happy with. It is sad though - what is happening to your LP collection?

It went with the table. Indoor it all to a local friend. It's all in good hands. I only have the phono stage left. I'll prolly put that on Audiogon.

 

[jdubs]

Interesting! I'm still loving streaming vinyl. The non-linearity of bass in vinyl is interesting but what is the frequency range of this problem?

I don't have any music that has much (if anything) below 40-50hz. But, I'm listening to mostly rock and indie rock.

Jim

 

[TBone]

streaming vinyl is superior to ripping it.

generalization based on ??? ...

Experienced (over a decades worth) digital ripper here, having shared hundreds of examples with fellow rippers. While ripping is often regarded as generally being a straight-forward process, like all other diy audiophile learning curves; best-case ripping techniques take time to master. In fact, the act of ripping vinyl (positive and negative results need to be captured so they can be used as an archived comparison tool) has resulted in many subsequent analog-based modifications, which result in superior rips. It's very much a symbiotic relationship, the very act of ripping LP to CD has forced changes within my analog system that I would have never attained otherwise.

Dependencies within the analog domain (entire chain:LP to recorder) are super critical ... however ... I can safely say that the choice of digital format (I still use professional rec@16/44) is the least offensive sonic bottleneck within the entire ripping chain.

Personally, unless I'm missing something, I don't see any advantage to streaming a turntable into a digital system, and it would still require capturing (ripped) to disk for comparison / archive purposes.

 

[anders]

I sold my TT. I'm done with vinyl. This is why:

I discovered that although LPs offer some nice advantages, the disadvantages outweigh those advantages in my system. The disadvantage is simply poor bass linearity. In most systems very low frequency bass linearity doesnt matter much. In my system, I'm using subs and digital crossovers to produce "flat" bass down to 20hz. However, I can only ensure the bass quality with digital sources. With vinyl super low frequencies are limited by the medium. There's no consistency from disc to disc at super low frequencies. I know if I were more patient I could come up with a solution to this problem which would involve numerous low frequency EQs and change them with every disc. However, I am not that patient. I admit it. I just want to hear music. There's only so much tweaking I can stand. I say no to vinyl but in saying no to vinyl, I say yes to music. The end.

There is a lot of weird stuff going on in the bass with vinyl, like summing the bass to mono so it doesn't create impossible to track vinyl. Also particularly problematic with the huge amount of intermodulation distortion it introduces.

But like you say in one of your posts some music is just mastered very poorly in digital and the RHCP album you heard on vinyl (One Hot Minute) in particular sounds dreadful on CD. I never heard the vinyl.

Fortunately acoustic music (jazz/classical) has been treated very well on CD and now hi-res digital.

 

[TBone]

There is a lot of weird stuff going on in the bass with vinyl, like summing the bass to mono so it doesn't create impossible to track vinyl. Also particularly problematic with the huge amount of intermodulation distortion it introduces.

But like you say in one of your posts some music is just mastered very poorly in digital and the RHCP album you heard on vinyl (One Hot Minute) in particular sounds dreadful on CD. I never heard the vinyl.

Below are two examples from T.Petty Full Moon Fever, song 1, Free Fallin, ripped LP MCA-6253 & CD MCAMD-6253:

freq.plots...
LP:

CD:


The result here is rather typical of a well mastered, well ripped LP ... vs the similar CD.

(rec. dec15, w/new phono-stage setup, break_in=2hrs. no digital intervention/tools (such as click removal or freq manipulation) were used.

 

[TBone]

I'm not certain the problem above is based entirely on LP inherited poor low freq. linearity to 20hz. My system doesn't utilize an infrasonic filter in the chain, therefore it wastes more infrasonic energy while playing LP in comparison to the exact CD (but not exact LP-CD). This added low frequency energy can often play musical havoc within many systems. It's an important consideration, never a constant, & very equipment/setup orientated.

The ~10hz hump evident in the above LP plot = tonearm resonance + vinyl quality, cleanliness + turntable inherited noise + the consistency/maintaining proper stylus Azimuth & SRA. It can be somewhat controlled, given the proper setup & circumstances ...

example: (same system/rec.date as example above)

Traveling Wilburys LP(925796), t#10, End Of The Line (straight to CD rip, no digital intervention).

 

[dallasjustice]

The problem for me had to do with how I integrate bass in my room. I use DSP to get pretty flat and accurate bass. Of course, it's accurate measured from a digital logsweep and a mic/ADC system which is calibrated. If the source is not only inaccurate at low frequencies but also changes from one disc to the next, the result can be maddening; work hard to achieve a great result on something and then it's all taken away.

I know vinyl has real value. I know there are many discs which don't exhibit some of these bass issues because there's very little bass in the recording. However, I didn't want to roll the dice every time I buy a disc. Vinyl wasn't for me.

 

[TBone]

The problem for me had to do with how I integrate bass in my room. I use DSP to get pretty flat and accurate bass. Of course, it's accurate measured from a digital logsweep and a mic/ADC system which is calibrated. If the source is not only inaccurate at low frequencies but also changes from one disc to the next, the result can be maddening; work hard to achieve a great result on something and then it's all taken away.

I know vinyl has real value. I know there are many discs which don't exhibit some of these bass issues because there's very little bass in the recording. However, I didn't want to roll the dice every time I buy a disc. Vinyl wasn't for me.

May I presume it's your first attempt at not only streaming vinyl, but vinyl in general? Vinyl isn't for everyone, certainly, but ...

The plot examples provided above are typical fair for LP freq.response around 100-20hz in comparison to the similar digital plot (given same mix). Personally, I doubt the showstopper is the level of "light bass" within varying LP's; rather how one deals with ALL the lower freq. issues - from both a hardware (1st and foremost) and then secondly from a software perspective.

Many folks are ripping vinyl. I understand the many benefits to ripping vinyl from a convenience standpoint. I guess I am too impatient to wait to hear the music. Oh, and did I mention the "ritual." The setup is very simple: Convert the vinyl from the Luxman PD-171AS turntable, Jelco 750 arm and Soundsmith MIMC cartridge using a high quality AtoD converter

In your travels here within; little mention of turntable/arm/cart capability, beside limiting descriptor "good" (vs "high quality" AtoD) was provided, w/no additional setup info. From my point of view, you treated the entire vinyl front-end as a plug & play device, your focus placed entirely within the DSP chain (which, as you are now aware, cannot alleviate certain dependencies created downstream).

It should also be noted: Although most rip based on convenience, some look to preserve & capture higher quality reproduction + convenience. This is why we seek original LP/recordings as compared to many inferior re-issues. Another advantage, for those who share the same interest, is as a comparison tool. This is the very reason I got into ripping, the ability to share/compare my particular rigs "sound" reproduction w/others interested in hearing/understanding differences. Again, a learning curve ensues ... why do they sound different: should they?, is the LP mix similar? LP wear?, stylus tracking?, tonearm resonance?, turntable resonance/noise?, isolation?, phono-stage ... etc etc etc? To that end, a decade of ripping has taught me SIGNIFICANTLY more about vinyl reproduction than my prior two decades combined..

So ... our goals and values w/vinyl reproduction come from very different angles (please excuse the very weak Azimuth/SRA reference); in my analog world learning best-case ripping practices is mandatory, prior to any attempt at learning how to stream it ...


respected destroyer (wu-tang-slang)

 

[dallasjustice]

Respected Destroyer,

May I ask a "clean question?"(not cynical)

Throughout your ripping travails over the years, what is the most number of times you ripped the same song or album? (including reissues/remasters)


Intellectual Mercenary

May I presume it's your first attempt at not only streaming vinyl, but vinyl in general? Vinyl isn't for everyone, certainly, but ...

The plot examples provided above are typical fair for LP freq.response around 100-20hz in comparison to the similar digital plot (given same mix). Personally, I doubt the showstopper is the level of "light bass" within varying LP's; rather how one deals with ALL the lower freq. issues - from both a hardware (1st and foremost) and then secondly from a software perspective.



In your travels here within; little mention of turntable/arm/cart capability, beside limiting descriptor "good" (vs "high quality" AtoD) was provided, w/no additional setup info. From my point of view, you treated the entire vinyl front-end as a plug & play device, your focus placed entirely within the DSP chain (which, as you are now aware, cannot alleviate certain dependencies created downstream).

It should also be noted: Although most rip based on convenience, some look to preserve & capture higher quality reproduction + convenience. This is why we seek original LP/recordings as compared to many inferior re-issues. Another advantage, for those who share the same interest, is as a comparison tool. This is the very reason I got into ripping, the ability to share/compare my particular rigs "sound" reproduction w/others interested in hearing/understanding differences. Again, a learning curve ensues ... why do they sound different: should they?, is the LP mix similar? LP wear?, stylus tracking?, tonearm resonance?, turntable resonance/noise?, isolation?, phono-stage ... etc etc etc? To that end, a decade of ripping has taught me SIGNIFICANTLY more about vinyl reproduction than my prior two decades combined..

So ... our goals and values w/vinyl reproduction come from very different angles (please excuse the very weak Azimuth/SRA reference); in my analog world learning best-case ripping practices is mandatory, prior to any attempt at learning how to stream it ...
View attachment 24138

respected destroyer (wu-tang-slang)

 

[TBone]

Well, Intellectual Mercenary, let's just say I've experienced far too many DSOTM "shootouts" that I'd care to admit.