Subject: Center Speaker Recommendations for Main Horn Speakers

[ajant]

Troy Crowe is doing a custom build for me which will resemble these.

3D CAD files --- Horn No.1994 -- ES450 Biradial for JBL 2446 2" Throat

The horn achieves a 450Hz cutoff frequency (Fc). We recommend a crossover point in the 600Hz-800Hz region so that a standard 2nd order crossover slope can be achieved to match slopes with the low frequency driver's low pass function. Features 3D CAD files of upper and lower halves of horn...

josephcrowe.com

The question is that with the 3.1 system I want to build for DVD and BD movies, would I likely notice the main speakers playing much when watching movies, if indeed like ELAC, SVS and Definitive Technology say that ~ 70% of the movie soundtrack is intended for the center speaker? If yes, then with just music listening, since I don’t play any multichannel music, the center channel speaker won't even be playing with stereo and mono recordings.

So, will timbre matching between center and main speakers still be very important when watching movies? If yes, the trouble is that Troy Crowe gives no recommendations for a center speaker.

Therefore, how to find a center speaker that will blend best with that ES450 horn and Fostex T900A bullet tweeter?

 

[DonH50]

Troy Crowe is doing a custom build for me which will resemble these.

https://josephcrowe.com/products/speaker-system-no-2015-10-mtm-with-1-4-horn

The question is that with the 3.1 system I want to build for DVD and BD movies, would I likely notice the main speakers playing much when watching movies, if indeed like ELAC, SVS and Definitive Technology say that ~ 70% of the movie soundtrack is intended for the center speaker? If yes, then with just music listening, since I don’t play any multichannel music, the center channel speaker won't even be playing with stereo and mono recordings.

So, will timbre matching between center and main speakers still be very important when watching movies? If yes, the trouble is that Troy Crowe gives no recommendations for a center speaker.

Therefore, how to find a center speaker that will blend best with that ES450 horn and Fostex T900A bullet tweeter?

The link you provided shows a center using the same components and layout as the L/R speakers. Why not ask Troy to just build you a center like that? That would be my first choice. It basically centers the MTM array in the cabinet using the same drivers, and perhaps rotates the horn (waveguide), for horizontal placement.

IME, center matching is not super critical since you are focused on the video, but having a large discrepancy (mismatch) between sides and centers can be distracting (at least it was for me). My Maggies sounded better with a Maggie center, for example, though the conventional speakers I had in place before getting them set up worked OK for me with several different (conventional) centers. I ended up getting a Magnepan center after living with a conventional center and Magnepan L/R speakers for a while. My current (conventional) system uses the center speaker recommended to go with my L/R speakers. My gut says you would be better served having a horn-based center given you have horns in the L/R mains. With few exceptions, horns tend to sound different to me than conventional cone or planar systems. I feel I'm in good company; Paul Klipsch designed the Heresy as a center between Klipschorns back when he was pushing for three-channel playback systems instead of stereo.

 

[Robh3606]

If you can find one the JBL Array 880 is a very nice speaker system, Use it in my HT between my DIY actives. He might be able to do something similar.

Rob

 

[ajant]

The link you provided shows a center using the same components and layout as the L/R speakers. Why not ask Troy to just build you a center like that? That would be my first choice. It basically centers the MTM array in the cabinet using the same drivers, and perhaps rotates the horn (waveguide), for horizontal placement.

Unfortunately, Troy declined to build a center using drivers at all like those in the L/R speakers: B&C DCM50 + modified heavily modified Fostex T900A tweeter. So, because it is unknown how movies will sound without a compatible center speakers, I'm instead leaning towards asking Troy to build my other two way speaker build plan.That one will be only for music listening. For DVD and BD movie sound, I am compelled to look at higher end turn-key systems to use with my Rythmik F12 subs.

Off-topic question: Do you have a dedicated home theater system-one mostly for playing DVD and/or BD movies or for streaming movies?
If yes, are the front and center speakers custom built or turn-key built? And would you say that those speakers are the same or much less resolving than the speakers you use only for music listening?

 

[astrotoy]

I use the Avantgarde Solo speakers for my center and left and right surrounds, with my Avantgarde Duo speakers for my left right. The Solos are self powered, so don't need to have separate amps.

Larry

 

[DonH50]

Unfortunately, Troy declined to build a center using drivers at all like those in the L/R speakers: B&C DCM50 + modified heavily modified Fostex T900A tweeter. So, because it is unknown how movies will sound without a compatible center speakers, I'm instead leaning towards asking Troy to build my other two way speaker build plan.That one will be only for music listening. For DVD and BD movie sound, I am compelled to look at higher end turn-key systems to use with my Rythmik F12 subs.

Bummer! Seems strange; could you just buy the kit you showed and build it yourself or have someone else build it to spec?

Off-topic question: Do you have a dedicated home theater system-one mostly for playing DVD and/or BD movies or for streaming movies?
If yes, are the front and center speakers custom built or turn-key built? And would you say that those speakers are the same or much less resolving than the speakers you use only for music listening?

My main system is HT that I also use for music. All speakers are Revel and I feel they are good enough for music and movies. This is a link to my system: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ht-our-current-setups.564/page-27#post-672877 A number of folk have debated whether it is "resolving enough" but it's good enough for me.

 

[ajant]

My main system is HT that I also use for music. All speakers are Revel and I feel they are good enough for music and movies. This is a link to my system: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ht-our-current-setups.564/page-27#post-672877 A number of folk have debated whether it is "resolving enough" but it's good enough for me.

No point in building that center speaker as its drivers won't come close to matching the main speakers. And its height would be too big to fit under the 55" TV while having the center of the screen placed on axis with my line of sight 11 ft away.

About your Revel Salon 2 front speakers, while they appear to be discontinued, do they have beryllium or aluminum tweeter and/or midrange drivers? With your current amplifier and DAC, do they ever sound at all fatiguing, with most CD quality source material?

 

[DonH50]

No point in building that center speaker as its drivers won't come close to matching the main speakers. And its height would be too big to fit under the 55" TV while having the center of the screen placed on axis with my line of sight 11 ft away.

Ah, I was thinking you were using the same drivers as in your link, just a different cabinet. Sorry!

About your Revel Salon 2 front speakers, while they appear to be discontinued, do they have beryllium or aluminum tweeter and/or midrange drivers? With your current amplifier and DAC, do they ever sound at all fatiguing, with most CD quality source material?

Beryllium tweeter, regular midrange IIRC. Fatiguing, no, not to me, unless I turn them up too loud. Easy to do since they play very loud with low distortion. But source material is usually the rub; some CDs are so compressed they are fatiguing no matter the system. Good ones sound great. I have long contended (basically since CDs were first released in the late 1970's/early 1980's) that the big problem is mostly mastering and compression, not the CD format, that is to blame for their "bad" sound.

 

[ajant]

But source material is usually the rub; some CDs are so compressed they are fatiguing no matter the system.

Ditto lots of movie sound quality from lossy Dolby Digital DVDs and even lossless DTS-MA BDs, and streaming movies perhaps even worse. Revel Salon 2 front speakers for those too? Do you find yourself wanting to use EQ or anything to compensate?

 

[DonH50]

Ditto lots of movie sound quality from lossy Dolby Digital DVDs and even lossless DTS-MA BDs, and streaming movies perhaps even worse. Revel Salon 2 front speakers for those too?

My system: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ht-our-current-setups.564/page-27#post-672877 I only have the one system that I use for music and movies (including SACD and other multichannel music); there's a family room system for my wife and visitors rarely used (she's happy with the TV speakers, what can I say?) and a small bedroom system mainly for background music and weather alerts. SONOS speakers in other rooms.

Do you find yourself wanting to use EQ or anything to compensate?

Sometimes. Nothing to do with the system, all about the mix and mastering. I have 2-3 different presets for the SDP-75 but usually too lazy to switch. With all the fancy processors and such today what I miss most is having a set of bass/mid/treble knobs to turn.

I've pretty much moved past the gear and just want to listen (or watch) stuff I like without analyzing it to death. Been there, deep down the rabbit hole, but at this point in life am happy to just enjoy what I've got.

 

[Nicktube]

Build a ‘small’ synergy horn, Randy Parker did a video on these on YouTube. These are nearly fullrange and constant directivity and you can determine the coverage angle you like..

 

[ajant]

Build a ‘small’ synergy horn, Randy Parker did a video on these on YouTube. These are nearly fullrange and constant directivity and you can determine the coverage angle you like..

Couldn't find "synergy" horn speaker here. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=horn+speaker+Randy+Parker+ Thanks but don't have sufficient DIY skills; no work space to build and my day job drains too much time. Have to leave building to Troy Crowe or others. But with a two-way system using a pair of the AH-425 horns, how well would it provide a phantom center channel for movies compared to a two-way using a biradial horn like this one? https://josephcrowe.com/products/3d-cad-plans-for-es-290-biradial-horn-horn-no-1670

 

[Zeotrope]

Troy Crowe is doing a custom build for me which will resemble these.

3D CAD files --- Horn No.1994 -- ES450 Biradial for JBL 2446 2" Throat

The horn achieves a 450Hz cutoff frequency (Fc). We recommend a crossover point in the 600Hz-800Hz region so that a standard 2nd order crossover slope can be achieved to match slopes with the low frequency driver's low pass function. Features 3D CAD files of upper and lower halves of horn...

josephcrowe.com

The question is that with the 3.1 system I want to build for DVD and BD movies, would I likely notice the main speakers playing much when watching movies, if indeed like ELAC, SVS and Definitive Technology say that ~ 70% of the movie soundtrack is intended for the center speaker? If yes, then with just music listening, since I don’t play any multichannel music, the center channel speaker won't even be playing with stereo and mono recordings.

So, will timbre matching between center and main speakers still be very important when watching movies? If yes, the trouble is that Troy Crowe gives no recommendations for a center speaker.

Therefore, how to find a center speaker that will blend best with that ES450 horn and Fostex T900A bullet tweeter?

Yes, and no center speaker is best. I use my two main horns without a center and it works really well. Not only is dialogue centered, but when audio pans across the front, it’s seamless.
I think center channels are a bad idea unless they are exactly the same speaker as the front and are at the same height as the front speakers.

 

[Francesco tube fan]

I also use the duo xd as the front of a 5.2 AV system, I ordered it to solve the problem of the central speaker with the new _Colibrì c2, it arrives next week and I will be able to tell you.

 

[ajant]

For DVD/BD movie playback, might a pair JMLC AH425 horns produce a very good phantom center owing to their narrow directivity and if properly toed in?

https://galibierdesign.com/wp-content/uploads/wa-trip_gary-d.jpg

 

[Zeotrope]

For DVD/BD movie playback, might a pair JMLC AH425 horns produce a very good phantom center owing to their narrow directivity and if properly toed in?

https://galibierdesign.com/wp-content/uploads/wa-trip_gary-d.jpg

I think so! I have a pair of conical horns in a similar arrangement and the phantom center is astonishingly good. It’s actually better than a real center, because panning across the front is seamless, and you don’t need an AT screen.

 

[Francesco tube fan]

now at home .... sounding very nice

 

[Duke LeJeune]

For DVD/BD movie playback, might a pair JMLC AH425 horns produce a very good phantom center owing to their narrow directivity and if properly toed in?

https://galibierdesign.com/wp-content/uploads/wa-trip_gary-d.jpg

I have used time/intensity trading with constant-directivity horns and phantom center mode for many years.

I have not tried it with JMLC horns; I'm inclined to think it might not work particularly well, as JMLC horns are not constant-directivity types, so off-centerline listeners would not be hearing the same frequency response from each speaker.

Imo the KEY to the severe toe-in of a time/intensity trading configuration working well for off-centerline listeners is this: The output of the near speaker must fall off smoothly and rapidly as you move off-axis. With JMLC horns the highs will fall off more rapidly as you move off-axis because this type of horn has a radiation pattern that progressively narrows as you go up in frequency .

Imo a good time/intensity trading setup has one significant advantages over using a dedicated center channel, and it has one significant disadvantage. The advantage is greater depth in the center of the soundstage (probably irrelevant for movies but enjoyable for music videos); and the disadvantage is that if someone has a significant hearing imbalance a dedicated center channel speaker does a noticeably better job of anchoring the dialogue onscreen.

 

[Zeotrope]

I like the Kondo Souga!
What horn is this for the center?

@Duke LeJeune how would you expect conical (straight sided) horns like the Bill Woods designs to perform in terms of radiation patterns as a phantom center?

 

[Duke LeJeune]

@Duke LeJeune how would you expect conical (straight sided) horns like the Bill Woods designs to perform in terms of radiation patterns as a phantom center?

I would expect Bill Woods' horns to work extremely well in a "time/intensity trading" configuration in phantom center mode, with the speaker axes criss-crossing in front of the central sweet spot.