"Synergy"

[Nicholas Bedworth]

Yes, indeed. In many cases, components that sound strikingly different will all measure flatter than pancakes (to use a technical term), so obviously we need to look at other measurement paradigms to help differentiate things. Good luck on that, however. Amplitude-domain analysis only tells a small part of the picture. Warm, bright, neutral at least gives an impression of the overall sound, but of course the underlying electronic or mechanical mechanisms are left to the imagination.

 

[amirm]

Better, Amir? I was practicing earlier, too much to type whilst playing... - Don

Certainly . That said, something about needing an amp with a different response to match a speaker that needs such an amp rubs me wrong. Where those speaker designers thinking of such an amp? If so, why don't they say that in their literature?

 

[LL21]

Certainly . That said, something about needing an amp with a different response to match a speaker that needs such an amp rubs me wrong. Where those speaker designers thinking of such an amp? If so, why don't they say that in their literature?

- Why limit your marketing exposure? Alos, some manufacturers elect not to get as absorbed into this kind of estoterica as those of us on WBF do
- OTOH, some manufacturers do exactly this. Rockport has no problems in sharing that they use Gryphon electronics in many of their reference systems. They show photos of their workshops online with Gryphon and CJ equipment hooked up to their reference speakers, Transparent Ref cables and HRS racks throughout.
- Shindo, Kondo, Living Voice are often marketed by the DISTRIBUTORS in 'packages'...though again, is this synergy...or marketing to maximize sales from one Distributor?
- i also think it must be very challenging to build any piece of equipment with the nearly infinite number of possible combinations of other equipment with which it might be used....you could try to develop the 'perfect' for a select group (ie, low powered SET), or something that works across the board...but perhaps is 'tuned' a bit sterile in the hopes of being matched with warmer sources...or warmer in the hopes of being matched with more linear sources, etc, etc.

- which takes us back to the idea that matching components is important...if you are obsessively trying to optimize. I DO think certain equipment works quite well with MANY components. This is, in some part, why i chose the Gryphon Colosseum over the ML 2.2...not because one was actually better or worse in the general sense...but because i was more than happy with the Gryphon Colosseum in my system and, althought ML2.2 might be better match ( i cannot say not having auditioned)...i also did not wish to find out i switch speakers to something which cannot be run by18watt/channel monos.
- As a result, some (incl Steve) would say i chose the less synergistic piece (but which works very well imho) but related to Amir's point, has greater flexibilty to be used with more components than an 18 watt channel mono.

 

[JackD201]

I think a preliminary question has to be answered first. Do you build a system according to specific performance benchmarks previously adopted or do you build it according to fit purely aesthetic criteria?

If it is the latter, yes, I believe in synergy. Of course this requires that in a purely technical sense the darned system has to actually work!

Let's face it. Every piece in the chain has some color to it. If one believe's his system is perfectly neutral, he's taken as big a leap of faith as any other audiophile.

Personally, I believe any system must be built around the real world constraints all of us face. Whether it is the size of the listening space, it's construction, strong and weak points of specific components, not to mention what we can afford, choices must be made. If the choices add up to performance then I think one can say that, yes, he's got the system synergized for his specific purpose.

 

[microstrip]

(...) And then there are the room acoustics... My present perspective would be to treat the room first, before spending any serious money on gear. I'm tending towards diffusers as being the primary techology. In the right room, a $500 Proton FM stereo radio will produce wonderful sound. And as many of us heard at RMAF the other day, $500,000 of absolutely wonderful equipment in the wrong room can sound painfully bad.

Your comment shows that synergy must include the room. Once you settle the acoustics - and there will be a large variance here - you still need synergy between components to assemble the system. I still do not know what are "neutral" components, as most components people usually classify as neutral sound very different from each other, even from the same brand, but even once you get a "neutral" acoustics you need synergy to assemble an optimized system.

A good example of synergy is that usually the preamplifier from one brand sounds very good with the power amplifier of the same brand.

Although there is no magic receipt for synergy, we know there are some established trends in pairing equipment. Whether they are due to market constraints or to the experience and feedback of consumers is still open to debate.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

What Amir said.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

A good example of synergy is that usually the preamplifier from one brand sounds very good with the power amplifier of the same brand.

I would eliminate the "usually" and call that competency, not synergy, but YMMV. What I would call "settling for anything less" would probably be too provocative for polite discussion.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Seriously, who will say that an ultra linear, ultra powerful amp that goes down to lowest impedance desirable doesn't need anything else to compensate for it?

I will! I will say it! I have...repetedly. I will even add that "ultra powerful" is not necessary, "appropriately powerful" is. And until you get to the transducers and the room, I will say that is the extent of synergy I believe in.

Now, take that ultra linear, appropriately powerful amp and feed it the signal from an ultra-linear, ultra quiet source, and this....

Let's face it. Every piece in the chain has some color to it. If one believe's his system is perfectly neutral, he's taken as big a leap of faith as any other audiophile.

...is just not accurate. It may not be absolutely devoid of color, but it's going to be awfully close, and belief in its neutrality is not much of a leap at all. And it isn't even in the same reality with the leaps of faith taken by some audiophiles on the net daily.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

Certainly . That said, something about needing an amp with a different response to match a speaker that needs such an amp rubs me wrong. Where those speaker designers thinking of such an amp? If so, why don't they say that in their literature?

Amir,
I think you are addressing an exception. As far as I can remember now no speaker designer is expecting such an effect - please feel free to educate me.

But there are two important aspects to address - not all speaker designers aim at the same response in speakers as they differently valuate types of measurements and some do not accept that a linear frequency response is the best for sound reproduction.

 

[microstrip]

I would eliminate the "usually" and call that competency, not synergy, but YMMV. What I would call "settling for anything less" would probably be too provocative for polite discussion.

Tim

Tim,
I would not call incompetency connecting a Krell preamplifer to a Mark Levinson amplifier (just to nominate an experience I have carried with known brands) but the result was poor. And both were very competently designed units, that sounded great when "synergistically"matched.

 

[amirm]

I will! I will say it! I have...repetedly. I will even add that "ultra powerful" is not necessary, "appropriately powerful" is. And until you get to the transducers and the room, I will say that is the extent of synergy I believe in.

I wasn't saying it was needed either. I was trying to paint the picture of an ideal amplifier. Such a device has completely linear response and never runs out of power. I think we all agree that if the amp ever runs out of power, it distorts no matter how linear its response is otherwise. I was not addressing the issue of need there, but to sidestep that argument.

If we say that infinite power and completely flat response (i.e. zero coloring) are not sufficient in an amplifier, then I am at a loss s to our vocabulary here. Note that I am not saying any amplifier achieves this. But an ideal one on paper certainly can .

Carrying on then, if I use such an ideal amp with a real-life speaker and this combo doesn't sound good, surely it is a fault of the speaker designer, not what I have done. Right?

Inverted, is the expectation of some speaker designers that they have built something less than good and that it is a requirement that someone I find -- by magic I would add -- the matching equipment to make it good?

 

[amirm]

Amir,
I think you are addressing an exception. As far as I can remember now no speaker designer is expecting such an effect - please feel free to educate me.

Let me put it this way. If any one of them claimed that, they would certainly be in hot water with a lot of their customers currently using other gear! So it is clear that they don't dare to go there. They can certainly choose to use certain gear in demos and such but I love to hear them declare that no other amp can be used.

Saying another way, are we smarter than the speaker designer? Why wouldn't he find the pairing and tell us and have us follow? If they use brand X amp all the time in their demos, why are we choosing something else? I guess price could be one factor. But are we doing that knowing full well that we are reducing the performance then?

But there are two important aspects to address - not all speaker designers aim at the same response in speakers as they differently valuate types of measurements and some do not accept that a linear frequency response is the best for sound reproduction.

I had not discussed the speaker response yet . I was trying to dig into what I thought was the easier case, the amplifier but ran into a ditch there .

I plan to create a thread later on the good point you are making. That is, what makes a good speaker? Clearly there is incredible confusion out there with thousands of brands. Surely there are not thousands of versions of truth out there, even if we cut it down based on price categories.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,
I would not call incompetency connecting a Krell preamplifer to a Mark Levinson amplifier (just to nominate an experience I have carried with known brands) but the result was poor. And both were very competently designed units, that sounded great when "synergistically"matched.

I must have misunderstood your point, Micro. I thought you were saying that a preamp and amp of the same brand should sound good together. That I would consider competency, not synergy. Krell/ML don't sound good together? I'd say one or both just don't play well with others. No really good reason for it, though.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I wasn't saying it was needed either. I was trying to paint the picture of an ideal amplifier. Such a device has completely linear response and never runs out of power. I think we all agree that if the amp ever runs out of power, it distorts no matter how linear its response is otherwise. I was not addressing the issue of need there, but to sidestep that argument.

If we say that infinite power and completely flat response (i.e. zero coloring) are not sufficient in an amplifier, then I am at a loss s to our vocabulary here. Note that I am not saying any amplifier achieves this. But an ideal one on paper certainly can .

Carrying on then, if I use such an ideal amp with a real-life speaker and this combo doesn't sound good, surely it is a fault of the speaker designer, not what I have done. Right?

Inverted, is the expectation of some speaker designers that they have built something less than good and that it is a requirement that someone I find -- by magic I would add -- the matching equipment to make it good?

We are in complete agreement, Amir. Be careful. Being in complete agreement with me can be a bit dangerous around here. So let's take it to the next step: Given three amplifiers with linear response and infinite power....wouldn't they sound the same?

And at the other end -- other than perfectly linear response and line-level output, what would be required of the theoretically ideal pre-amp? And wouldn't it, also, need nothing to compensate for it? And shouldn't any theoretically ideal preamp fitting that description have "synergy" with any linear amp?

And wouldn't any three of these preamps sound the same?

Tim

 

[Ron Party]

I was trying to paint the picture of an ideal amplifier. Such a device has completely linear response and never runs out of power.

Amir, sign me up. I want one!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

here's the problem with the concept of the perfect amplifier. all powerfull, perfectly linear.

when i listen to my 2a3 SET monoblocks they do things that no mid or high power amplifier can even think about doing in terms of delicacy and lack of distortion. there is also a price to pay in what this flea powered amp can not do.

so this socalled ultra high power and ultra low distortion amplifier you are referring to fails on a musical level to convey the message of the music. it may float the boat of the measurement establishment, but many listeners will not be impressed.

Amir, don't sign me up. this perfect amp does not answer any question i'm asking.

 

[Old Listener]

many good thoughts in this thread

I see synergy used to politely explain differences in sighted listening tests between audiophiles:

Audiophile A: The XYZ DAC blows away the ABC DAC. No comparison!

Audiophile B: You're crazy! The ABC DAC is head and shoulders better.

Polite resolution: It's all synergy.

And I keep my opinion to myself: One of your assertions is wrong. Perhaps both.

--- Nicholas Bedworth said
"Basically most components, whether it's speakers or cables or amps, are all voiced, usually intentionally, in a very specific way. "

And how would that voicing for power amplifiers translate to possible measurments?

--- Amir said
"Why wouldn't he [amp designer] find the pairing and tell us and have us follow? "

I suspect that the treasure hunt is central to the audiophile experience for some people. Dealers provide advice on synergy as part of their value added.

I prefer good specs. and forthright manufacturers.

--- microstrip said
"Your [Nicholas Bedworth] comment shows that synergy must include the room. Once you settle the acoustics - and there will be a large variance here - you still need synergy between components to assemble the system. I still do not know what are "neutral" components, as most components people usually classify as neutral sound very different from each other, even from the same brand, but even once you get a "neutral" acoustics you need synergy to assemble an optimized system. "

This line of reasoning leads to me to discount listening reports if they aren't qualified by a description of the context: the rest of the system, the nature of the room and the recordings that were used.

--- Nicholas Bedworth said
"In many cases, components that sound strikingly different will all measure flatter than pancakes (to use a technical term), so obviously we need to look at other measurement paradigms to help differentiate things. Good luck on that, however."

Somehow, the people who dismiss available measurements as inadequate never contribute to getting improved measurements.

--- DonH50 said
"Synergy to me implies components that work together to create the best sound. From that point of view, if by "perfect" we mean measurably perfect, and that is the best sound, then synergy is a non-issue. In that I agree with Amir (no surprise there). However, real-world components are not perfect, and "best sound" varies by listener."

I suspect that much of audiophile's discussion of expensive components boils down to preference rather than perfection.

I prefer to satisfy my preferences for hundreds of dollars rather than 20-50,000 dollars or even more.

Bill

 

[microstrip]

I wasn't saying it was needed either. I was trying to paint the picture of an ideal amplifier. Such a device has completely linear response and never runs out of power. I think we all agree that if the amp ever runs out of power, it distorts no matter how linear its response is otherwise. I was not addressing the issue of need there, but to sidestep that argument.

If we say that infinite power and completely flat response (i.e. zero coloring) are not sufficient in an amplifier, then I am at a loss s to our vocabulary here. Note that I am not saying any amplifier achieves this. But an ideal one on paper certainly can .

Carrying on then, if I use such an ideal amp with a real-life speaker and this combo doesn't sound good, surely it is a fault of the speaker designer, not what I have done. Right?

Inverted, is the expectation of some speaker designers that they have built something less than good and that it is a requirement that someone I find -- by magic I would add -- the matching equipment to make it good?

Your point remembers me of the classical question - what is the measured voltage of a 2V ideal voltage source connected in parallel with a 3V also ideal voltage source using zero resistance wires?

My answer to your first question is that since the source was not perfect and stereo is not perfect system, you can not say that it was a fault of the speaker design.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I see synergy used to politely explain differences in sighted listening tests between audiophiles:

Audiophile A: The XYZ DAC blows away the ABC DAC. No comparison!

Audiophile B: You're crazy! The ABC DAC is head and shoulders better.

Polite resolution: It's all synergy.

And I keep my opinion to myself: One of your assertions is wrong. Perhaps both.

--- Nicholas Bedworth said
"Basically most components, whether it's speakers or cables or amps, are all voiced, usually intentionally, in a very specific way. "

And how would that voicing for power amplifiers translate to possible measurments?

--- Amir said
"Why wouldn't he [amp designer] find the pairing and tell us and have us follow? "

I suspect that the treasure hunt is central to the audiophile experience for some people. Dealers provide advice on synergy as part of their value added.

I prefer good specs. and forthright manufacturers.

--- microstrip said
"Your [Nicholas Bedworth] comment shows that synergy must include the room. Once you settle the acoustics - and there will be a large variance here - you still need synergy between components to assemble the system. I still do not know what are "neutral" components, as most components people usually classify as neutral sound very different from each other, even from the same brand, but even once you get a "neutral" acoustics you need synergy to assemble an optimized system. "

This line of reasoning leads to me to discount listening reports if they aren't qualified by a description of the context: the rest of the system, the nature of the room and the recordings that were used.

--- Nicholas Bedworth said
"In many cases, components that sound strikingly different will all measure flatter than pancakes (to use a technical term), so obviously we need to look at other measurement paradigms to help differentiate things. Good luck on that, however."

Somehow, the people who dismiss available measurements as inadequate never contribute to getting improved measurements.

--- DonH50 said
"Synergy to me implies components that work together to create the best sound. From that point of view, if by "perfect" we mean measurably perfect, and that is the best sound, then synergy is a non-issue. In that I agree with Amir (no surprise there). However, real-world components are not perfect, and "best sound" varies by listener."

I suspect that much of audiophile's discussion of expensive components boils down to preference rather than perfection.

I prefer to satisfy my preferences for hundreds of dollars rather than 20-50,000 dollars or even more.

Bill

Bill, I just poked my head in your profile. Your library system wins my personal award for most interesting audio system on WBF. Boy, would I love to hear that.

Tim

 

[mep]

when i listen to my 2a3 SET monoblocks they do things that no mid or high power amplifier can even think about doing in terms of delicacy and lack of distortion.

I think this statement with reference to distortion needs to be clarified because it’s nonsensical and laughable as written. The way the sentence is written, you are saying a 3 watt single-ended amplifier has a lack of distortion that no mid or high powered amp can even think about which is just crazy. The opposite is in fact true. No single-ended 3 watt amp could dream of having the distortion figures of a medium to high powered amp. In reality, no single-ended 3 watt amp could dream of having the distortion of pretty much any SS amp regardless of its power output.

Now if you are using the word *distortion* to convey the perceived purity of the 3 watt amp and how it’s revealing information that the mid to high power amp could only dream of so therefore it must be some sort of distortion in the bigger amps that’s blurring the purity that you hear with the 3 watt amp, that’s a whole nother food fight. And I suspect that is what you meant, but of course I could be wrong.