Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I meant to add that this picture was taken by Emile in 2019 when he visited and help set up my Extreme
Taiko Audio Systems Gallery
- Thread starter nenon
- Start date
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I think one of these mega yachts are in the Taiko future
That room is VERY tasteful, Howie.
@nenon I love the diffusions on the floor for floor reflections. What tests did you do? and how did you decide on diffusors vs absorption?
It's funny I accidentally stumbled on this when i lazily decided to plop some panels flat on the floor. But not in a systematic way.
Did you do any measurements or eval by ear? And how did you arrive on the orientation of scattering? What brand are those? I'm a GIK person mainly.
Read about the AGS stuff designed for floor, but can't stomach the asking price.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
This one was taken in Fashion Island outside the Tesla store
I knew it was risky to start this thread and show photos. People will ask all kind of questions and it will become more and more obvious how crazy some of us are...
The short answers to your questions are very simple, actually - measurements (lots of measurements) and by ear, Realtraps diffusers, and a GIK Monster trap. That's it. Well, not really...
A long and boring post is following explaining in more details.
These speakers have huge (literally... ~1 meter in diameter and ~140 lbs in weight each) midbass horns that are placed very low and are very close to the floor. The great thing about them is that you get crazy dynamic and lifelike midbass that I have never heard from conventional drivers. Another great thing is that even when my listening chair is over 5 meters away from the speakers, I almost get nearfield midbass listening experience with these huge horns.
The bad thing is that they are very sensitive to floor reflections. I've never had speakers with so critical floor-midbass interaction. Usually midbass drivers are smaller and much higher up.
When I started doing room measurements, I thought the crossovers were messed up. It turned out they weren't but it took me a while to find that out.
I have a CLIO 12 speaker measurement system / Earthworks measurement mic. I also use REW occasionally. So, when I did the first measurement, the midbass seemed quite messy. I had an area rug on the floor, but that wasn't nearly enough to tame down my floor reflections. Since it's difficult to treat the floor, I decided to treat the ceiling instead. The thinking at the time was that even if the floor is not treated very well, if I can cover the other surfaces where the reflections from the floor could go to, then maybe the floor would not matter that much. A logical place to start with was the ceiling...
I added some absorbers on the ceiling that did a very good job absorbing the problematic frequency range. I was quite positive at the time that this would be a step in the right direction, even if not a complete solution to the problem. Fired up my measurement system and to my biggest surprise, things were a lot worse. Peaks were even higher than before. Dips were lower. Many days, experiments, moving panels around, and measurements later (also a lot of of time domain measurements, not just frequency response) revealed what was going on. The results were quite shocking. A big part of the reflections from the floor were getting cancelled by similar reflections coming from the ceiling as the two were meeting (partially) out of phase. So, when I put absorbers on the ceiling, I prevented the reflections from the ceiling to cancel out some of the floor reflections. And I exacerbated the floor reflection problem even more by adding absorbers on the ceiling.
At that pont, it became obvious that I needed to address the floor itself.
To figure out how to solve the floor reflection problem, I performed an extensive a study on different materials. I bought 5 area rugs from different materials - 100% wool, synthetic, etc. I took good measurements with each area rug type and documented the results. Each material had slightly different acoustical properties. No material did everything I needed. So I also bought several different types or carpet pads (the thickest version I could find of each type). They also had different properties and none of them did everything I needed.
It was clear that I needed to combine different materials to achieve my goal. To make things even more interesting, I also bought a piece of mass loaded vinyl (MLV) - 2 pound per square foot was the heaviest I found, and so I have two pieces of 1/4'' thick MLV. I believe each piece is around 100 lbs.
Between the multiple area rugs, carpet pads, and MLV I almost got lost in measuring way too many combinations. But a systematic approach and a lot of documentation helped a lot. One of the biggest challenges was that not only it matters what materials you stack on top of each other but also the order you stack them in. For example, MLV - pad1 - pad2 - area rug sounded and measured different than pad2 - MLV - pad1 - area rug. You can see how that could get quite complicated....
Eventually I found the perfect combination, at least in terms of measurements. Yes, it was quite a few layers, but not too bad. It measured FLAT. Almost completely flat... well, there is no such thing as completely flat measurements in the room, but the frequency I was trying to address was much flatter than any other frequencies. Bingo. Problem solved.
With a big smile on my face (you can imagine how long this study took me), I finally sat down to listen to some music... and guess what... I did not like it. I did not like it AT ALL! It sounded lifeless, clinical, not emotionally engaging, and so on. I tried for a day, two, three... but no, I was never drawn by the music. I would sit down to listen and immediately find something else to do while listening.
On day 4, I decided to remove everything and go back to a naked floor, not even area rug... Well, that did not sound good either, but it was way more engaging.
This was the point when I decided to use the measurements and study as a guidance but to dial in things with my ears. So, I ended up leaving a Nike Grind based carpet pad + MLV + area rug. It was between that and Nike Grind based carpet pad + MLV + synthetic felt pad + area rug, but the latter was a bit too thick, so I left the former.
Obviously, during all that time, I was also experimenting with room treatment panels. Since panels on the floor are not very attractive/practical, my focus was on carpets, pads, MLV, etc - stuff that's let's say not thicker than an inch. However, I could not help but notice how well everything sounded with my realtraps diffusers on the floor.
When one of my audio friends came over, we tried all kinds of different combinations of room panels on the floor (in addition to the pad+MLV+area rug). They made a significant difference and we both liked the exact same combinations of diffusers, rotated differently. What you've seen on the photo was one of the best combinations... there was only one combination that sounded better, but I would need two more diffusers for that one. I keep them on the floor when practical and remove them when not.
I doubt anyone made it that far through my post, but if you did - congratulations, you must be crazy too
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Guilty as charged!I knew it was risky to start this thread and show photos. People will ask all kind of questions and it will become more and more obvious how crazy some of us are...
The short answers to your questions are very simple, actually - measurements (lots of measurements) and by ear, Realtraps diffusers, and a GIK Monster trap. That's it. Well, not really...
A long and boring post is following explaining in more details.
These speakers have huge (literally... ~1 meter in diameter and ~140 lbs in weight each) midbass horns that are placed very low and are very close to the floor. The great thing about them is that you get crazy dynamic and lifelike midbass that I have never heard from conventional drivers. Another great thing is that even when my listening chair is over 5 meters away from the speakers, I almost get nearfield midbass listening experience with these huge horns.
The bad thing is that they are very sensitive to floor reflections. I've never had speakers with so critical floor-midbass interaction. Usually midbass drivers are smaller and much higher up.
When I started doing room measurements, I thought the crossovers were messed up. It turned out they weren't but it took me a while to find that out.
I have a CLIO 12 speaker measurement system / Earthworks measurement mic. I also use REW occasionally. So, when I did the first measurement, the midbass seemed quite messy. I had a carpet on the floor, but that wasn't nearly enough to tame down my floor reflections. Since it's difficult to treat the floor, I decided to treat the ceiling instead. The thinking at the time was that even if the floor is not treated very well, if I can cover the other surfaces where the reflections from the floor could go to, then maybe the floor would not matter that much. A logical place to start with was the ceiling...
I added some absorbers on the ceiling that did a very good job absorbing the problematic frequency range. I was quite positive at the time that this would be a step in the right direction, even if not a complete solution to the problem. Fired up my measurement system and to my biggest surprise, things were a lot worse. Peaks were even higher than before. Dips were lower. Many days, experiments, moving panels around, and measurements later (also a lot of of time domain measurements, not just frequency response) revealed what was going on. The results were quite shocking. A big part of the reflections from the floor were getting cancelled by similar reflections coming from the ceiling as the two were meeting (partially) out of phase. So, when I put absorbers on the ceiling, I prevented the reflections from the ceiling to cancel out some of the floor reflections. And I exacerbated the floor reflection problem even more by adding absorbers on the ceiling.
At that pont, it became obvious that I needed to address the floor itself.
To figure out how to solve the floor reflection problem, I performed an extensive a study on different materials. I bought 5 carpets from different materials - 100% wool, synthetic, etc. I took good measurements with each carpet type and documented the results. Each material had slightly different acoustical properties. No material did everything I needed. So I also bought several different types or carpet pads (the thickest version I could find of each type). They also had different properties and none of them did everything I needed.
It was clear that I needed to combine different materials to achieve my goal. To make things even more interesting, I also bought a piece of mass loaded vinyl (MLV) - 2 pound per square foot was the heaviest I found, and so I have two pieces of 1/4'' thick MLV. I believe each piece is around 100 lbs.
Between the multiple carpets, carpet pads, and MLV I almost got lost in measuring way too many combinations. But a systematic approach and a lot of documentation helped a lot. One of the biggest challenges was that not only it matters what materials you stack on top of each other but also the order you stack them in. For example MLV - pad1 - pad2 - carpet sounded and measured different than pad2 - MLV - pad1 - carpet. You can see how that could get quite complicated....
Eventually I found the perfect combination, at least in terms of measurements. Yes, it was quite a few layers, but not too bad. It measured FLAT. Almost completely flat... well, there is no such thing as completely flat measurements in the room, but the frequency I was trying to address was much flatter than any other frequencies. Bingo. Problem solved.
With a big smile on my face (you can imagine how long this study took me), I finally sat down to listen to some music... and guess what... I did not like it. I did not like it AT ALL! It sounded lifeless, clinical, not emotionally engaging, and so on. I tried for a day, two, three... but no, I was never drawn by the music. I would sit down to listen and immediately find something else to do while listening.
On day 4, I decided to remove everything and go back to a naked floor, not even carpet... Well, that did not sound good either, but it was way more engaging.
This was the point when I decided to use the measurements and study as a guidance but to dial in things with my ears. So, I ended up leaving a Nike Grind based carpet pad + MLV + carpet. It was between that and Nike Grind based carpet pad + MLV + synthetic felt pad + carpet, but the latter was a bit too thick, so I left the former.
Obviously, during all that time, I was also experimenting with room treatment panels. Since panels on the floor are not very attractive/practical, my focus was on carpets, pads, MLV, etc - stuff that's let's say not thicker than an inch. However, I could not help but notice how well everything sounded with my realtraps diffusers on the floor.
When one of my audio friends came over, we tried all kinds of different combinations of room panels on the floor (in addition to the pad+MLV+carpet). They made a significant difference and we both liked the exact same combinations of diffusers, rotated differently. What you've seen on the photo was one of the best combinations... there was only one combination that sounded better, but I would need two more diffusers for that one. I keep them on the floor when practical and remove them when not.
I doubt anyone made it that far through my post, but if you did - congratulations, you must be crazy too
Christiaan Punter
Well-Known Member
...I also use MLV and the normal (but thick) felt pad under a silk carpet in my room. It works well to my ears, although I did not do the measurement dance you did, @nenon
I have had a big ceiling cloud and various items overhead, but a couple of skyline diffusors sound best so far, my room being much different than yours, of course.
Thanks for this thread, BTW. It's one of the more fun items we've had in a while.
I have had a big ceiling cloud and various items overhead, but a couple of skyline diffusors sound best so far, my room being much different than yours, of course.
Thanks for this thread, BTW. It's one of the more fun items we've had in a while.
Wow. Kudos. I'm not nearly as crazy as you are but thank you for that amazing writeup of your work on this.I knew it was risky to start this thread and show photos. People will ask all kind of questions and it will become more and more obvious how crazy some of us are...
The short answers to your questions are very simple, actually - measurements (lots of measurements) and by ear, Realtraps diffusers, and a GIK Monster trap. That's it. Well, not really...
A long and boring post is following explaining in more details.
These speakers have huge (literally... ~1 meter in diameter and ~140 lbs in weight each) midbass horns that are placed very low and are very close to the floor. The great thing about them is that you get crazy dynamic and lifelike midbass that I have never heard from conventional drivers. Another great thing is that even when my listening chair is over 5 meters away from the speakers, I almost get nearfield midbass listening experience with these huge horns.
The bad thing is that they are very sensitive to floor reflections. I've never had speakers with so critical floor-midbass interaction. Usually midbass drivers are smaller and much higher up.
When I started doing room measurements, I thought the crossovers were messed up. It turned out they weren't but it took me a while to find that out.
I have a CLIO 12 speaker measurement system / Earthworks measurement mic. I also use REW occasionally. So, when I did the first measurement, the midbass seemed quite messy. I had an area rug on the floor, but that wasn't nearly enough to tame down my floor reflections. Since it's difficult to treat the floor, I decided to treat the ceiling instead. The thinking at the time was that even if the floor is not treated very well, if I can cover the other surfaces where the reflections from the floor could go to, then maybe the floor would not matter that much. A logical place to start with was the ceiling...
I added some absorbers on the ceiling that did a very good job absorbing the problematic frequency range. I was quite positive at the time that this would be a step in the right direction, even if not a complete solution to the problem. Fired up my measurement system and to my biggest surprise, things were a lot worse. Peaks were even higher than before. Dips were lower. Many days, experiments, moving panels around, and measurements later (also a lot of of time domain measurements, not just frequency response) revealed what was going on. The results were quite shocking. A big part of the reflections from the floor were getting cancelled by similar reflections coming from the ceiling as the two were meeting (partially) out of phase. So, when I put absorbers on the ceiling, I prevented the reflections from the ceiling to cancel out some of the floor reflections. And I exacerbated the floor reflection problem even more by adding absorbers on the ceiling.
At that pont, it became obvious that I needed to address the floor itself.
To figure out how to solve the floor reflection problem, I performed an extensive a study on different materials. I bought 5 area rugs from different materials - 100% wool, synthetic, etc. I took good measurements with each area rug type and documented the results. Each material had slightly different acoustical properties. No material did everything I needed. So I also bought several different types or carpet pads (the thickest version I could find of each type). They also had different properties and none of them did everything I needed.
It was clear that I needed to combine different materials to achieve my goal. To make things even more interesting, I also bought a piece of mass loaded vinyl (MLV) - 2 pound per square foot was the heaviest I found, and so I have two pieces of 1/4'' thick MLV. I believe each piece is around 100 lbs.
Between the multiple area rugs, carpet pads, and MLV I almost got lost in measuring way too many combinations. But a systematic approach and a lot of documentation helped a lot. One of the biggest challenges was that not only it matters what materials you stack on top of each other but also the order you stack them in. For example, MLV - pad1 - pad2 - area rug sounded and measured different than pad2 - MLV - pad1 - area rug. You can see how that could get quite complicated....
Eventually I found the perfect combination, at least in terms of measurements. Yes, it was quite a few layers, but not too bad. It measured FLAT. Almost completely flat... well, there is no such thing as completely flat measurements in the room, but the frequency I was trying to address was much flatter than any other frequencies. Bingo. Problem solved.
With a big smile on my face (you can imagine how long this study took me), I finally sat down to listen to some music... and guess what... I did not like it. I did not like it AT ALL! It sounded lifeless, clinical, not emotionally engaging, and so on. I tried for a day, two, three... but no, I was never drawn by the music. I would sit down to listen and immediately find something else to do while listening.
On day 4, I decided to remove everything and go back to a naked floor, not even area rug... Well, that did not sound good either, but it was way more engaging.
This was the point when I decided to use the measurements and study as a guidance but to dial in things with my ears. So, I ended up leaving a Nike Grind based carpet pad + MLV + area rug. It was between that and Nike Grind based carpet pad + MLV + synthetic felt pad + area rug, but the latter was a bit too thick, so I left the former.
Obviously, during all that time, I was also experimenting with room treatment panels. Since panels on the floor are not very attractive/practical, my focus was on carpets, pads, MLV, etc - stuff that's let's say not thicker than an inch. However, I could not help but notice how well everything sounded with my realtraps diffusers on the floor.
When one of my audio friends came over, we tried all kinds of different combinations of room panels on the floor (in addition to the pad+MLV+area rug). They made a significant difference and we both liked the exact same combinations of diffusers, rotated differently. What you've seen on the photo was one of the best combinations... there was only one combination that sounded better, but I would need two more diffusers for that one. I keep them on the floor when practical and remove them when not.
I doubt anyone made it that far through my post, but if you did - congratulations, you must be crazy too
I put down a few absorbers on the floor along the audio path and it really did improve the ambience/hall image last night.
Did you test panel absorbers vs panel diffusors specifically? Do you remember what was better with each?
@MarkusBarkus How much MLV area wise did you end up using?
What was the downside to the big ceiling cloud? Was that pure absorption or diffusion?
The floorstanding diffusors hide two Entreq Pluton and three Olympus Ten ground boxes.
Hiya Seatrope. The MLV is just a wee bit smaller than the 8'x5' carpet, for aesthetic reasons.
If you mean as compared to the overall size, it would be about 1/3 of the floor dimension...in the audio area.
This is a funky room, and a bit open/larger to the left (unseen in my pics). That said, any direct reflections would be in that smaller area, so I think 1/3 is a reasonable estimate.
Re: ceiling cloud, it was T-shaped, two-inch rigid fiberglass, wrapped in acoustic fabric, and held together in an aluminum frame. It was suspended about four inches from the ceiling. The air-gap improves management of some frequencies.
It worked well, but my ceiling is not very high, so ultimately I tired of the look and tried the skylines. I essentially traded the MLV for the cloud as a management solution. The MLV is practically invisible, although the total sandwich is a little more give than normal, which is fine by me.
Attachments
...awesome @seatrope
I especially like the night-light view. The cavern of sound. Bravo, sir.
I especially like the night-light view. The cavern of sound. Bravo, sir.
