TechDAS Air Force Zero (real final photo)

May 2, 2012
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Munich - Germany
I am involved in the world’s most crazy industry, characterized by the craziest prices, the yachting business (my portfolio includes yachts of over 80m in length and value of more than 90 mil euro) .The R&D and engineering of yachting is unbelievable but still the extrageration of the hifi industry is beyond any logic.
agree completely. We should not support high end producers in levelling prices to the million bar!
 

TLi

Active Member
May 27, 2016
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How do you know this to be a fact?

Very subjectively I personally have always found the original SAT tonearm to be a bit on the analytical side. If Michael tells us the new version of the SAT ameliorates a touch of edginess which some people perceived as detail then I am sure I personally would prefer the new version of the SAT.
This is Nishikawa san personal preference on original SAT over the new one. It actually quite matches with Japanese style of records productions. Japanese wants everything sharp and clear, some say it is analytical. Western records are, in general, more musical, ie softer to some people. TechDAS helps Stereo Sound to master some of their reissue records.

So it is a matter of taste and preference.
 

Vienna

Active Member
Oct 14, 2018
128
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Athens Greece
agree completely. We should not support high end producers in levelling prices to the million bar!
The Maltese Falcon yacht is equipped with 3 masts, made of carbon, they are free standing and are rotating, they are fit with fiber optic system to measure the stresses and automatically readjust the loads and sails tension. They are 197 ft in height and measure more than 4 metres diameter at their base.
The rigging, sails and masts rotation are controlled through a plc system with a touch screen interface, how much all this construction and engineering should cost the moment that a 12'' tonearm's cost is 53,000 usd?
 

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bonzo75

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The Maltese Falcon yacht is equipped with 3 masts, made of carbon, they are free standing and are rotating, they are fit with fiber optic system to measure the stresses and automatically readjust the loads and sails tension. They are 197 ft in height and measure more than 4 metres diameter at their base.
The rigging, sails and masts rotation are controlled through a plc system with a touch screen interface, how much all this construction and engineering should cost the moment that a 12'' tonearm's cost is 53,000 usd?
Buyers must be smarter, markets must be more efficient, tendency to announce on a forum price tag must be less
 
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spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Yes Ked, buyers must be smarter. How many potential buyers for the AF0 would even consider the Vyger at 8x lower price tag?
 
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PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2011
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I use original SAT on AF1P turntable with Ortofon MC Century . Make no mistake, I prefer SAT over Graham Elite arm used in the demonstration. Elite was my previous arm before SAT, so I know quite well how the two compared. Last time when I visited TechDAS in Sep, 2018, they have SAT CF-9 on the AFIP, they sounded great.

To my surprise, they used Graham Elite in the demo. I was the first one there to bring this up as I was expecting SAT CF-9. Only later in dinner that Nishikawa san mentioned the unhappy relationship with Marc Gomez. But he did mentioned he preferred the sound of the original SAT over CF-9, this is his personal choice.

Having said that, the sound in the demo was still top grade. Very often in such an event, the manufacturer has only one morning to unpack and setup in a unfamiliar room. It is very easy for an experienced participant to identify some deficiency in the sound. Not for this demo, I found no short coming. The sound was just so good.
TLi, thanks for your reporting on this event. Did they play the SME 3012R arm? It would be interesting to read about that comparison on this table. Also, do you remember what cartridge they were using in the Graham Elite during the demo?

I wonder if the unhappy relationship between Nishikawa san and Marc Gomez has anything to do with the fact that the former preferred the original, now discontinued, SAT arm over the new CF-9. That must have made for a bit of an awkward conversation, even if it was just his personal choice and only a matter of taste and preference.
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Yep, and imagine if the SAT designer preferred the AF1 over the 0.
 
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PeterA

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Dec 7, 2011
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Yep, and imagine if the SAT designer preferred the AF1 over the 0.
Marc, though this is getting a bit off topic, what I am really curious about is if Hishikawa san prefers the 3012R to the SME V-12 for that back slot. He is the distributor in Japan, and as we know on WBF, many prefer the older SME arm. What must the SME engineers think about that?

Back on topic: I wonder if the TechDAS arm will be a massive pivoted air bearing design with near zero friction. It works for the rotating platter. As long as the arm base is massive enough for resonances to drain into, one could break the mechanical drainage path between arm wand and armboard. Now that would be a statement and potential for real technological advancement.

EDIT: I think this might work in the horizontal plane, but the vertical plane and cueing might be difficult to solve.
 
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bonzo75

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Mike Lavigne

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Marc, though this is getting a bit off topic, what I am really curious about is if Hishikawa san prefers the 3012R to the SME V-12 for that back slot. He is the distributor in Japan, and as we know on WBF, many prefer the older SME arm. What must the SME engineers think about that?

Back on topic: I wonder if the TechDAS arm will be a massive pivoted air bearing design with near zero friction. It works for the rotating platter. As long as the arm base is massive enough for resonances to drain into, one could break the mechanical drainage path between arm wand and armboard. Now that would be a statement and potential for real technological advancement.
linear tracking arms with air bearings, even over-the-top designs like the integral one on the Rockport Sirius III, are not the last word in bass solidity in my experience. not that they are bad, just not optimal. the Durand pivoted arms i used at the time in my system bettered the bass slam and definition of the Rockport arm to my ears. i would expect any pivoted arm with an air bearing would be even more challenged in the bass. an arm bearing just has such an influence on this issue. any 'drainage' of energy would/should intuitively include musical leverage too.

but i'm no engineer so maybe i'm missing something?

OTOH an air bearing for a platter makes perfect sense.
 
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XV-1

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May 24, 2010
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Sydney
Yep, and imagine if the SAT designer preferred the AF1 over the 0.
yes imagine someone owning the AF-1, SAT and 3012-R arms and preferring the 3012-R arm. oh the shock. you listening @Tango :p
 
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jackelsson

Active Member
Dec 1, 2013
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.de
linear tracking arms with air bearings, even over-the-top designs like the integral one on the Rockport Sirius III, are not the last word in bass solidity in my experience.
When talking about linear trackers I also believe that an air bearing and a tonearm that is dragged tangentially across the record at its needle is a somewhat flawed concept. I always believed more in the general concept of the old Goldmund linear trackers. Nowadays perfected in the Dereneville linear tracker. At a price...
Dereneville DDT linear tracking tonearm.jpg
 

TLi

Active Member
May 27, 2016
113
113
43
TLi, thanks for your reporting on this event. Did they play the SME 3012R arm? It would be interesting to read about that comparison on this table. Also, do you remember what cartridge they were using in the Graham Elite during the demo?

I wonder if the unhappy relationship between Nishikawa san and Marc Gomez has anything to do with the fact that the former preferred the original, now discontinued, SAT arm over the new CF-9. That must have made for a bit of an awkward conversation, even if it was just his personal choice and only a matter of taste and preference.
They use TechDAS Ti cartridge for their demo. The SME 3012R has not been played, it was just put on static display.

Nishikawa san has not go into details on Marc Gomez, my guess the breakup is not related to the performance of his tonearms. It is more to do with the behaviour of Marc.
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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yes imagine someone owning the AF-1, SAT and 3012-R arms and preferring the 3012-R arm. oh the shock. you listening @Tango :p
Imagine him not listening to AF1 as well. Though it's the premium version and might not be as good as the older AF1
 

XV-1

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
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Sydney
Imagine him not listening to AF1 as well. Though it's the premium version and might not be as good as the older AF1
LOL. Maybe Michael Fremer will take the challenge and listen to a SME 3012-R to hear or not hear what the hype is :)
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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E. England
Hey, I'll have to stick up for my Terminator air bearing LT that beat my SME V, Origin Live and Audio Origami/Syrinx arms in my system.

Esp in the bass.
 

PeterA

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Dec 7, 2011
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North Shore of Boston
Hey, I'll have to stick up for my Terminator air bearing LT that beat my SME V, Origin Live and Audio Origami/Syrinx arms in my system.

Esp in the bass.
Marc, did you have all three of those arms on your Trans Fi Salvation before getting the Terminator? And was this in your current room and system?
 
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JackD201

[WBF Founding Member]
Apr 21, 2010
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Manila, Philippines
Yes Ked, buyers must be smarter. How many potential buyers for the AF0 would even consider the Vyger at 8x lower price tag?
Nobody knows.

As for the yachts I'd venture to guess that of the 50 that might go for the Zero or of whatever number of Apolytes will be made, an extremely small, if any, fraction could afford to buy, berth, man and fuel a luxury yacht even if life on the seas is their ultimate passion. I know my buyer can't but I do know he'll be happy if he does pull the trigger because he'd done his due diligence. Still, while he can afford it, he isn't stupid. He will first need to sell off his existing tables to make it all work. Unless we're talking drug lords, warlords and such, money is still hard earned. The assumption that people who want these products are stupid IS frankly, stupid. Like us normal folks, they prioritize and save. There's a reason they get paid what they do. They have skills that are high in demand and short in supply. There is a reason they have the disposable income too. They spend wisely not on idiocy like drugs, women and gambling.

So many judge products on looks. You just keep on taking pot shots Marc starting with the unfinished shots. The Vyger I've been told is a great table and I for one would like to hear one. I've said it. I saw the Apolyte in HK and the looks turned me off. I've said it here too. Pictures alone and I find that the Zero which is smaller I still find Brutalist in looks. One guy says the AFs look feminine. Fine. The Vyger looks like an espresso machine to me. I sure hope that is fine with him too. What does all this matter anyway? Buy what best you can afford and be happy. For the nth time. Only the insecure should complain. There ARE many good products available to us we can both enjoy and afford. Most expensive is not what is best. What is best is what we can really be happy with irregardless of price or looks.

Have I ever in all these years said anything remotely bad about affordable gear? I'm onne of the few here that takes the time to help members find 50 dollar off-amazon solutions for their systems. I don't discriminate perhaps because I come from a place where my counntrymen are discriminated against all over the world. For years I've been following your ZU journey. I've seen people rag on you. I've enjoyed watching you bring out the best in them being happy you're happy. Happiest that in some small ways I've given you a reco or two to help even so slightly on your journey as I have for countless members here. Yet you and others see high prices and go to town. I may not be in Zero level but don't forget, in the eyes of non audiophiles, we are ALL crazy here. 50k for an arm? How about 30k for an amp? 300 USD for a tube? Thousands on mooks, stillpoints, CS'. Nobody has any right to make fun of anybody else here. We are all the same. Price is just a number. Value is as personal and thus as unassailable as tastes.

This is not pointed directly at you and you alone my friend. I post here less and less because people think it is cool to put others down when they go through the very same efforts and prejudgement themselves.

Thank God, I'm no longer a moderator here.

Rant over. I'm taking an effing time out from this site.
 

JackD201

[WBF Founding Member]
Apr 21, 2010
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Manila, Philippines
Oh and before I go. I saw a like and remembered something else. I expressed these very same sentiments when the guys here were raking the WAMM over the coals. Same with the Vox Olympian, same with the dCs stacks etc etc. So before anybody accuses me of my displeasure stemming from my being associated with TechDAS. Think again.
 

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