Testing and embracing Stacore

[PeterA]

IMHO we must consider the mechanisms of dealing with vibration of both types of devices. Arguments such as "it did not work in my floor" or "both platforms attempt to solve the same problem of vibration management" are of no help for a more enlightened choice.

Passive platforms isolate components from the floor vibration blocking energy transfers from the floor to the component, dissipating this energy as heat. They rely on the inertia of the load and the damping properties of the elastic materials, such as air and rubber, being used. Active platforms, having sensors and actuators, attached to the platform and elsewhere, create a referential of inertia in the table, actively absorbing both the vibrational energy from the floor and that coming from the component being supported. Although apparently more complete, the active mode surely is more complex and has some intrinsic drawbacks, that must be weighted in the choice.

Micro, I think I now see your point. Active and passive platforms do different things. The former attempts to address vibrations coming from both the component itself and the floor while the latter attempts to address just the vibrations from the floor. Marc compared the two approaches because they were both advertised as potential solutions to his problem. He did the comparison and made a choice. Are you saying they should not have been compared to each other, or that they are solutions to different problems? Do you think to better understand the issues involved, we need to be more clear about what the devices attempt to do and be clear about what is the problem they attempt to solve?

Perhaps you are interested in better defining the problem. Does the component itself generate harmful vibrations which are not sufficiently addressed by the design of component? If so, is an active platform the best solution or does it create its own issues and make the problem worse? Perhaps the passive solution addresses one problem and avoids dealing with the other so is the better choice in some circumstances. If the component does sufficiently address self generated vibrations, perhaps the way the AS2000 supposedly does, then what is the best solution to support it? What interests me is that a third proposed, even recommended, solution is to simply use an extremely rigid and strong stationary platform as a support for this particular turntable. Perhaps we should also discuss why this proposal has merit if we are to have a more enlightened discussion.

Tango and Christian are proposing different solutions to the same problem. Do they not fully understand the problem they are trying to solve? Marc may not have understood the problem either, but I don't think it really matters because he directly compared three proposed solutions and made a choice as to which solved some - perhaps not fully understood - problem based on listening to the three platforms. He solved the problem of how to improve his sound.

I am curious about the different approaches of energy drainage and isolation. A passive device like the Stacore or Vibraplane can both isolate the component form floor borne vibrations but also act as a sink into which component vibrations can travel if there is a pathway. An active device may feed those vibrations directly back into the component because of the feedback loop generated by the sensors and actuators.

 

[Stacore]

Active platforms, having sensors and actuators, attached to the platform and elsewhere, create a referential of inertia in the table, actively absorbing both the vibrational energy from the floor and that coming from the component being supported.

Exactly like the passive ones. I keep explaining that there is no such thing as a mechanical diode so if you isolate/damp one way, you do it both ways.
Cheers,

 

[Stacore]

Micro, I think I now see your point. Active and passive platforms do different things. The former attempts to address vibrations coming from both the component itself and the floor while the latter attempts to address just the vibrations from the floor.

Absolutely not true!! I have no idea where this myth comes from, but think of a washing machine. The mechanism inside is suspended on rubber exactly to prevent vibrations of the load (your laundry rotating at 1000rpm) to pass to the floor, and your neighbors.

Cheers,

 

[Tango]

Micro, I think I now see your point. Active and passive platforms do different things. The former attempts to address vibrations coming from both the component itself and the floor while the latter attempts to address just the vibrations from the floor.....

If the component does sufficiently address self generated vibrations, perhaps the way the AS2000 supposedly does, then what is the best solution to support it? ....

Tango and Christian are proposing different solutions to the same problem. Do they not fully understand the problem they are trying to solve? ....

Dear Peter,

What Micro described how active and passive antivibe do their job as you summarize on the first paragraph is how I understand them too. I am a cosumer not an expert so I leave Jarek and other technicians defend whether it could be summarize like that or not. Jarek obviously doesnot think his Stacore platform only manage viberation from the floor.

Moving to next point. I do think that the AS with its mass and excellent design already by itself exhibits very low self generated vibration.

If you have been reading my posts in various threads, you would find me not putting much emphasis on vibration management devices. I dont think my room is cursed with so much vibration kharma like Marc and Mr.Lavigne . Maybe the bass and sound image from my system could improve if I put more attention to antivibe, I really dont know. Jarek told me his platform would definitely improve the performance of my phono. That is why I ask him to incorporate it on my rack second tier...reflecting my curiosity in wanting to experiment.

So. Do I know fully understand the problem I am trying to solve? You can see from my writing above that I dont even think I have a problem at the first place Peter. I just need the rack that is well design perfectly fit for my AS and my environment. One thing about me with AS, I want to hear it exactly as how its builder intended to. David doesnt buy any mechanism that involves counteracting. I also dont think I have much vibration problem in my room and from the AS itself. So I take different route in rack from Christian.

Looking at Christian's room, I can see why he puts more emphasis on vibe mgt than I do.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[Stacore]

Guys, you can go on defeating the laws of physics but they will stay what they are
Tang, do you have a washing machine at home?

Cheers,
Jarek

 

[bonzo75]

Guys, you can go on defeating the laws of physics but they will stay what they are
Tang, do you have a washing machine at home?

Cheers,
Jarek

He probably has more than one, from different brands, to compare

 

[spiritofmusic]

What’s the audio equivalent of putting laundry on the line?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Seriously, I concur with Jarek that’s it’s not JUST about isolating from floor-borne vibns but also those produced by the component.
Stacking two components on the Stacore Adv ie with only one in contact with the platform, was nowhere near as effective in stacking both side by side allowing both components to contact the platform.

 

[Stacore]

I wait until Tang replies and we go step by step through how passive suspension in a washing machine isolates equipment generated vibrations

 

[bonzo75]

What’s the audio equivalent of putting laundry on the line?

Vintage? Sometimes can be more effective than the dryer

 

[Tango]

He probably has more than one, from different brands, to compare

That's a good one Ked.
I have one Electrolux and one Siemen.

Thanks Jarek. I will go on to examining my washers this weekend. Hopefully I dont get too fasinated by the washers mechanism and go crazy order a few more platforms of yours.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[Stacore]

That's a good one Ked.
I have one Electrolux and one Siemen.

V good Tang! Now pick any of it, the brand doesn't matter and open it. Look at the metal, cylindrical container you put your laundry into.
Move it with your hand. You feel how it is suspended? Now imagine this cylinder rotating 1000rpm with 6kg of load.
The vibrations it generates is beyond anything you can have in audio, even in Mike's room with his towers
The suspension you just felt prevents those vibrations from reaching the floor. Otherwise your washing machine
would be hammering your floor. Do you think this suspension is active ?

Cheers,

 

[bonzo75]

My Martin Logan summits with downward firing woofers used to vibrate on the floor and neighbors below would feel it. I was advised to buy a mat that is put under washing machines to stop vibrations going below. I bought that and put my speakers on top of an Auralex and the Auralex on top of that mat. Solved the problem

 

[Stacore]

Is this mat an active device Ked ?

 

[bonzo75]

It used to be direct on floor. The active device would have been the cost of my used speakers

 

[Stacore]

It used to be direct on floor. The active device would have been the cost of my used speakers

Thank you Ked

 

[microstrip]

What’s the audio equivalent of putting laundry on the line?

I will only ask people to not think about misleading analogies and analyze the way things happen in our systems. Our audio electronic equipment is not laundry.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I’ve situated tts on many surfaces, but I don’t think any of those have been a washing machine

 

[PeterA]

I am not sure that I follow the washing machine analogy, Jarek. If you place a turntable on a set of rubber footers (which act as passive isolation), the internally generated vibrations of the turntable are less likely to travel down to the rack. But, they are trapped inside the turntable structure to wreak their havoc on the tonearm/cartridge and platter/bearing. Would a more effective approach not be to try to absorb the vibrations through mass like in the American Sound turntable, or to try to design pathways for energy drainage away from the tonearm/cartridge and platter/bearing?

I would think that a more holistic approach that would attempt to prevent vibrations from the environment from ever reaching the component PLUS a component designed to deal with internally generated vibrations would be the best solution. A washing machine's drum's rubber isolation is fine for that purpose because you don't want the house shaking, but also because the dirty laundry does not care if it is shaking. Our audio components do care if they have internal vibrations reaching the circuit boards, the speaker drivers, or the cartridge where the delicate signals are effected. Well, more precisely, our ears care.

 

[Taiko Audio]

I see this discussion has moved over to this thread.

What may be helpful is carefully reading this manual: http://tablestable.com/uploads/ckeditor/TS-140/Manual_TS_150140_LP.pdf It actually contains many of the answers you may be looking for.

Then there's a more in depth whitepaper here: http://www.herzan.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/White-Paper-A-dynamic-antivibration-system.pdf