The absolute best audio system i have ever heard any where

[Bill Hart]

Tim,

You are right. The listening environment, especially open air can make a good sound reinforcement system sound great. While I know little about the products used other than the amps and the boards, I am sure that they are top notch. My Radio Shack comment was to over stress the point that audio snobbery does not equal a good experience in all cases.

russ

Russ, we are on the same page. I had started a thread a couple weeks ago regarding a similar experience at a live show using what appeared to be a modest 'pro' sound support system that, at least with fairly simple pre-recorded mateial, sounded absolutely marvelous in a 'real life' sense, not a 'hi-fi' sense. That is in part what i am trying to achieve at home.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Horns are very tricky. I've been using them since 2006, and it demanded an unbelievable amount of work to reduce the noise level of my system, given their efficiency. They can create a very believable sense of 'aliveness' and have alot of the attributes I prized as an electrostat listener. Glare and shoutiness can be an issue- my new phono stage is working wonders to reduce that, but in other systems, it may sound too polite. My issue- which is partly room related, and partly equipment related, is mainly with the bass. Using dynamic, powered 'monkey coffins', which is the case with the Avantgardes (I'm not even sure their big bass horn is truly a horn in the classic sense), makes for a discontinuity between the lows and everthing else.
I am fascinated by the vintage horn stuff, and while I am not prepared to shell out the kind of money that is required for ancient Western Electric drivers, I'd love to hear those Japanese re-creations by GIP. I've also never heard a full on Klangsfilm system. What Jeffery Jackson, Jon Weiss, and some of those other guys are doing absolutely fascinates me. I'm not particularly adept, mechanically, but i'm certain, with some help, I could get the cabinets built. That's for the next room, though. I'm already too crowded in my existing room and would have no room for a bass horn. Perhaps I should start a separate thread re horns?

I've had listening systems ending in Klipsch LaScalas and Altec Lansing Valencias, and I've owned/used for sound reinforcement a pretty broad variety of Altec and Electrovoice systems all the way up to Voice of the Theater. Glare and shout are the problem....well, that and beam if you're not far enough away from them. But I've heard some things lately, though briefly, that made me wonder if the glare and shout had been overcome. This is a place where I suspect (dead horse beating on the way) active systems can make a big difference. Passive crossovers, in the wrong place (which is usually where they're put) sure won't mitigate upper midrange distortion (glare and shout) they will, in fact, put a cluster of noisy (relative to a lot of things) resistance right in the middle of it. Smooth out the horns, move the crossover down, and back before amplification, match the amps to the drivers and give them more power than they'll ever need....hell, I couldn't design a speaker to save my life, but theoretically it sounds like a good enough approach to start...

Tim

 

[Bruce B]

The best indoor amplified event I've heard is a concert by Portishead.

 

[Saturntube]

Well First of all the source material is, wel LIVE: forget about RTR master tapes, THIS is better: run it through the worst Radio shack system it will be hardly messed up! Second, the room and its "boundaries" help a lot too! No standing waves, no early relfections...pf

Now about pro gear, I have been using MDF round horns with pro speakers for about 7 years now, from Altec to Vitavox S2, Beyma and 18sound, most of them are top notch! I get more detail and dinamics than almost all high End stuff I heard in over 20 years of being an audiophile!
Horns and cheap SS 1000 watt amps wont mix well in a home environment though...this is where tasty SETs work their magic!
passive xovers and multiamp and you will give a live concert a run for its money...well not!

 

[Bill Hart]

I've had listening systems ending in Klipsch LaScalas and Altec Lansing Valencias, and I've owned/used for sound reinforcement a pretty broad variety of Altec and Electrovoice systems all the way up to Voice of the Theater. Glare and shout are the problem....well, that and beam if you're not far enough away from them. But I've heard some things lately, though briefly, that made me wonder if the glare and shout had been overcome. This is a place where I suspect (dead horse beating on the way) active systems can make a big difference. Passive crossovers, in the wrong place (which is usually where they're put) sure won't mitigate upper midrange distortion (glare and shout) they will, in fact, put a cluster of noisy (relative to a lot of things) resistance right in the middle of it. Smooth out the horns, move the crossover down, and back before amplification, match the amps to the drivers and give them more power than they'll ever need....hell, I couldn't design a speaker to save my life, but theoretically it sounds like a good enough approach to start...

Tim

Tim, the Avantgardes are really a different breed, and they are probably not the best of breed either, but, FWIW, there is no crossover whatsoever between the amp and the midrange horn. There are high quality jumpers (mine by the same cable maker used for everything in the system) to the tweeter (which has a passive crossover) and down to the woofer amp (which has an active, adjustable crossover) and takes an input from the main amp through a speaker cable binding post (even though it has its own internal power amp the idea being that you get the same 'sound' from the main amp feeding the woofer). I've heard various older Klipsch (corner) horns over the years, as well as my share of Altecs. Those didn't compare, in my estimation, to the K2 JBL driven by a very small tube amp. But what I'm most interested in are those very old drivers, the RCA, Western Electric, etc. that are so popular in the Far East.
And as to active systems, I know there are folks that have used digital crossovers with the Avantgardes and bypassed the stock woofer system altogether. One of the problems with the Avantgarde set up (short of using their bass horn which is free standing and huge), is that the woofers are part of the 'support' for the horns so you can't place the woofers in the room optimally. I'd love to hear more on horns, from you and others. I've read a little bit about the theory, but haven't had a chance to hear those truly ancient systems that some of the fringe rave about.

 

[Saturntube]

Glare and shout are the problem....well, that and beam if you're not far enough away from them.

Most of the problems about glare and shout in horns come from bad set ups: Compression drivers inside horns have such a dinamic rage and such a low distortion due to the diaphragms very small movement, that it is very easy to set the volume of the horn at an extremely high volume in comparison to the accompanying channels, ussually from 800 hz down. For comparison sake: if you had a bass system as dinamic as the horns playing at the same volume you will be blowing your windows of the wall! But most horn systems in use today have a single 15" woofer covering the most difficult range from 800hz down to 40-30 hz, this driver, as good as some are (Altec), is used exceedingly beyond its reach.
Using big horns to cover from 100-120 hz up to 800 hz and then the compression driver of choice from say 800 hz up to 12khz etc, will let you listen what horns are really all about! If you never listened to a system like this, you probably dont know what horns really sound like...

About glare and shout there is a driver-horn combination also that has to be used to avoid this: Tests have to be run to avoid glare and shout and it can totally dissapear: For example, round tactrix horns, I found dont like Radian 950 drivers (nice drivers mind you), in this type of horns they do become shouty, it can be fixed using 20 ga copper wire instead of fat high end cables, but some penalties occur in low level detail loss: Same thing for certain TAD drivers. Maybe Exponential curved horns or other profiles will help here. I go for tactrix profile mainly because its size, and because they are so good at near field listening: which bring us to the next point in the prior quote: Horns can be used for nearfield listening if well designed and set up, detail and soundstage becomes expansive. Volume has to be carefully put taking in account for the wonderfull dynamics horns can achieve, if you start with a high volume for the lowest pianissimo passages, when the crescendo comes in it will be powerful!

About xovering, horns have a natural slope and after the horn cut off; a relation to its size, response drops faster than a 24 db filter! So in certain aspects xovers can be skipped, but sound does suffer a little in transparency, a simple 6 db xover following the horn natural cut off will do wonders, and if put before the amplifier and you multiamp with good SETs, well heaven is right around the corner!

 

[puroagave]

Tim, the Avantgardes are really a different breed, and they are probably not the best of breed either, but, FWIW, there is no crossover whatsoever between the amp and the midrange horn. There are high quality jumpers (mine by the same cable maker used for everything in the system) to the tweeter (which has a passive crossover) and down to the woofer amp (which has an active, adjustable crossover) and takes an input from the main amp through a speaker cable binding post (even though it has its own internal power amp the idea being that you get the same 'sound' from the main amp feeding the woofer). I've heard various older Klipsch (corner) horns over the years, as well as my share of Altecs. Those didn't compare, in my estimation, to the K2 JBL driven by a very small tube amp. But what I'm most interested in are those very old drivers, the RCA, Western Electric, etc. that are so popular in the Far East.
And as to active systems, I know there are folks that have used digital crossovers with the Avantgardes and bypassed the stock woofer system altogether. One of the problems with the Avantgarde set up (short of using their bass horn which is free standing and huge), is that the woofers are part of the 'support' for the horns so you can't place the woofers in the room optimally. I'd love to hear more on horns, from you and others. I've read a little bit about the theory, but haven't had a chance to hear those truly ancient systems that some of the fringe rave about.

Jim smith, the former importer for Avantgarde did a road show around the US about 10-yrs ago and i made it to the So cal event. It was my first time listening to the AG duos and i was smitten. the snap, aliveness, "jump factor" or whatever you want to use to describe as the difference between reproduced and live performers revealed itself that day in many ways i never experienced before. i vowed to own horns or high efficiency speakers someday to recapure what i was feeling at that demo.

i never did acquire a horn-based system but when i hear them nowadays, especially with SET amps like the cessaro/thoress room at the 2012 NB show it takes me back to that demo years before. they are far from perfect and not everyone's cup of tea but their specialness is undeniable.

 

[Bill Hart]

Glare and shout are the problem....well, that and beam if you're not far enough away from them.

Most of the problems about glare and shout in horns come from bad set ups: Compression drivers inside horns have such a dinamic rage and such a low distortion due to the diaphragms very small movement, that it is very easy to set the volume of the horn at an extremely high volume in comparison to the accompanying channels, ussually from 800 hz down. For comparison sake: if you had a bass system as dinamic as the horns playing at the same volume you will be blowing your windows of the wall! But most horn systems in use today have a single 15" woofer covering the most difficult range from 800hz down to 40-30 hz, this driver, as good as some are (Altec), is used exceedingly beyond its reach.
Using big horns to cover from 100-120 hz up to 800 hz and then the compression driver of choice from say 800 hz up to 12khz etc, will let you listen what horns are really all about! If you never listened to a system like this, you probably dont know what horns really sound like...

About glare and shout there is a driver-horn combination also that has to be used to avoid this: Tests have to be run to avoid glare and shout and it can totally dissapear: For example, round tactrix horns, I found dont like Radian 950 drivers (nice drivers mind you), in this type of horns they do become shouty, it can be fixed using 20 ga copper wire instead of fat high end cables, but some penalties occur in low level detail loss: Same thing for certain TAD drivers. Maybe Exponential curved horns or other profiles will help here. I go for tactrix profile mainly because its size, and because they are so good at near field listening: which bring us to the next point in the prior quote: Horns can be used for nearfield listening if well designed and set up, detail and soundstage becomes expansive. Volume has to be carefully put taking in account for the wonderfull dynamics horns can achieve, if you start with a high volume for the lowest pianissimo passages, when the crescendo comes in it will be powerful!

About xovering, horns have a natural slope and after the horn cut off; a relation to its size, response drops faster than a 24 db filter! So in certain aspects xovers can be skipped, but sound does suffer a little in transparency, a simple 6 db xover following the horn natural cut off will do wonders, and if put before the amplifier and you multiamp with good SETs, well heaven is right around the corner!

Saturntube: the difficulty of matching the mid/hi horns to a non-horn woofer is the biggest issue for me, and i cross over at around 140hz, i'll have to check the slope. No matter how much I fidget with the crossover point, changes in polarity relative to the other drivers, or the gain on the woofer, it still does not sound as 'fast.' Jim Smith will say it is in the set up or the room, not the speaker. Me, I wanna really big set of true horn woofers!

 

[Bill Hart]

Jim smith, the former importer for Avantgarde did a road show around the US about 10-yrs ago and i made it to the So cal event. It was my first time listening to the AG duos and i was smitten. the snap, aliveness, "jump factor" or whatever you want to use to describe as the difference between reproduced and live performers revealed itself that day in many ways i never experienced before. i vowed to own horns or high efficiency speakers someday to recapure what i was feeling at that demo.

i never did acquire a horn-based system but when i hear them nowadays, especially with SET amps like the cessaro/thoress room at the 2012 NB show it takes me back to that demo years before. they are far from perfect and not everyone's cup of tea but their specialness is undeniable.

I got alot of help from Jim because he was the distributor when I bought mine, although i never had him come to my house to do his set-up magic. I have also heard the Cessaro through the Tron equipment courtesy of High Water Sound in NY.
There is alot of magic in horns. I lived for years with electostats, knowing where I was compromising, and now, I live with this horn/hybrid set up, which suffers from a different set of shortcomings. (Although woofer matching was an issue, at least for me, using both types - horn or stat- you could always hear a difference in tonality and 'speed' and 'openness' when it came to the bass. Call it what you will, there was a discontinuity). I have huge respect for Jim. I will tell you there is a special synergy between the horns and the Lamm SET, which was evident the moment I got the Lamms.- They also make the instruments have body and a sort of palpability that offsets some of the potential drawbacks of a horn.

 

[flez007]

The best indoor amplified event I've heard is a concert by Portishead.

Portishead rulz!

 

[Saturntube]

140 hz should be good enough to cross over to a good bass system, I use 4 woofers per side in a self made design inspired on a tapped horn. A friend uses one Altec 416 per side on a modded Karlson enclosure with good results. If you are going for a sealed enclosure use multiple drivers.

Listening to polarity changes is good, it means your system is working well, if you change polarity on oe driver and notice no change you are in big trouble! I have almost 8 db loss in volume when I change polarity on my midrange horns. Now Time alignment is really important in horns, Avantgarde are not time aligned, maybe you can modify the supports to align your drivers?

 

[Bill Hart]

I have thought of modifying them, but I want to learn more about the vintage reproductions of the WE stuff that I mentioned coming out of Japan. Once I take them apart, they are worthless on resale and I'd probably just replace them rather than frankenstein them. I do know of a few systems where the horns were taken out of their factory stands and put into very heavy, rigid stands, different external crossovers, big woofers, etc. If you look at Herman's system on the Gon, you will see an all out effort. I forget what his system name is there, I can look it up and send it to you.
Best,

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Glare and shout are the problem....well, that and beam if you're not far enough away from them.

Most of the problems about glare and shout in horns come from bad set ups: Compression drivers inside horns have such a dinamic rage and such a low distortion due to the diaphragms very small movement, that it is very easy to set the volume of the horn at an extremely high volume in comparison to the accompanying channels, ussually from 800 hz down. For comparison sake: if you had a bass system as dinamic as the horns playing at the same volume you will be blowing your windows of the wall! But most horn systems in use today have a single 15" woofer covering the most difficult range from 800hz down to 40-30 hz, this driver, as good as some are (Altec), is used exceedingly beyond its reach.
Using big horns to cover from 100-120 hz up to 800 hz and then the compression driver of choice from say 800 hz up to 12khz etc, will let you listen what horns are really all about! If you never listened to a system like this, you probably dont know what horns really sound like...

About glare and shout there is a driver-horn combination also that has to be used to avoid this: Tests have to be run to avoid glare and shout and it can totally dissapear: For example, round tactrix horns, I found dont like Radian 950 drivers (nice drivers mind you), in this type of horns they do become shouty, it can be fixed using 20 ga copper wire instead of fat high end cables, but some penalties occur in low level detail loss: Same thing for certain TAD drivers. Maybe Exponential curved horns or other profiles will help here. I go for tactrix profile mainly because its size, and because they are so good at near field listening: which bring us to the next point in the prior quote: Horns can be used for nearfield listening if well designed and set up, detail and soundstage becomes expansive. Volume has to be carefully put taking in account for the wonderfull dynamics horns can achieve, if you start with a high volume for the lowest pianissimo passages, when the crescendo comes in it will be powerful!

About xovering, horns have a natural slope and after the horn cut off; a relation to its size, response drops faster than a 24 db filter! So in certain aspects xovers can be skipped, but sound does suffer a little in transparency, a simple 6 db xover following the horn natural cut off will do wonders, and if put before the amplifier and you multiamp with good SETs, well heaven is right around the corner!

Thanks for the information. Not sure I understand all of it, but evidently there are some sound reinforcement companies that do. I've been out of the business of listening to/being interested in PA for awhile. I've started to get curious again and have listened to some pretty basic mid-sized, horn/15 active stuff. And not in ideal conditions at all. Glare and shout seem greatly reduced. Makes me wish I had room for some of this stuff as a playback system.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

I agree with Saturn. In my experience with JBL and Turbosound horns, the keys to avoiding "shout" is to get them powered up in balance with the other drivers, getting them time aligned in an array and for me most especially getting them working within their specified ranges. I always set active XOs close but before mechanical roll off. Being very sensitive they will also expose distortions one could get away with with less sensitive systems so care must be taken from end to end.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Tim, the Avantgardes are really a different breed, and they are probably not the best of breed either, but, FWIW, there is no crossover whatsoever between the amp and the midrange horn. There are high quality jumpers (mine by the same cable maker used for everything in the system) to the tweeter (which has a passive crossover) and down to the woofer amp (which has an active, adjustable crossover) and takes an input from the main amp through a speaker cable binding post (even though it has its own internal power amp the idea being that you get the same 'sound' from the main amp feeding the woofer). I've heard various older Klipsch (corner) horns over the years, as well as my share of Altecs. Those didn't compare, in my estimation, to the K2 JBL driven by a very small tube amp. But what I'm most interested in are those very old drivers, the RCA, Western Electric, etc. that are so popular in the Far East.
And as to active systems, I know there are folks that have used digital crossovers with the Avantgardes and bypassed the stock woofer system altogether. One of the problems with the Avantgarde set up (short of using their bass horn which is free standing and huge), is that the woofers are part of the 'support' for the horns so you can't place the woofers in the room optimally. I'd love to hear more on horns, from you and others. I've read a little bit about the theory, but haven't had a chance to hear those truly ancient systems that some of the fringe rave about.

K-horns are hardly any indicator of what a good horn speaker can do. They are the worst and remember them in their cheap plywood boxed rattling around.

 

[Mobiusman]

Second Wall Concert Update

Last night I went to The Wall again and sat in the center section in row 22. I took about 180 pictures and am still sorting them out and will create a sequential montage for those who are interested. It will take me a day or two to sort them out and label them, not counting today which is a boating day. I plan to make a new listing Called "Photos from The Wall Concert" and will make an entry on this thread when it is created.

The following is my short summary of my two experiences with this concert at Yankee Stadium off third base and at Citizen's Bank Field (Phillies) 100-125 feet away from the stage dead center.

My seats were about a 100-125 feet from the stage. I definitely would not want to be any closer for auditory and visual reasons. The sound was actually better in Yankee Stadium because we were better positioned for the effects, BUT Philly was much, much more involving because we were right in the mix of everything--Ya just had to dance. Fortunately the wall was a bit smaller, although more than my visual field, but not to bad. The net result was that I was truly immersed by what was going on and definitely because of the inverse square law, the graphics and animations were much more vivid and thus involving. Also I could see much more detail so the graphics meant more as opposed to Yankee Stadium where they looked like graphics and less like the visual for the story of the album.


In summary, while the sound was bit less clear, the visceral effect was incredible. Once the drivers, especially the woofers warmed up and became more compliant, the bass became real good, but not great, with less tautness to the initial attack, which I love and seek. Overall, it was better than Yankee Stadium and without a doubt the best concert I have ever been too. Amazing photos to follow.

 

[Mobiusman]

Link to concert pictures 130 images from NYC and Philly

I have struggled long and hard with photobucket.com to try to create an album of the best of my pictures. the best way to see and download them if you wish is to go to
http://s1244.photobucket.com/albums/gg569/russferstandig/

I have also made a new post on this site with some of the story and this link
[h=2]Russ Ferstandig's 130 Images from Roger Waters The Wall concerts in NYC and Philly[/h]
enjoy

 

[treitz3]

Thanks! This speaker array is one that I don't recall ever seeing before, at least the way it is shaped. Interesting concept. Looks like it was one heck of a good time just based on your photo album.

 

[treitz3]

This is awesome...

 

[rbbert]

Do you go to many rock or "jam band" concerts? That array you've posted looks almost identical to the pair at String Cheese Incidents for the past 3 years, and in fact the reports I've had from regular concertgoers (audience tapers) don't suggest The Wall sound system is particularly unusual, although of course the production itself is.