The Fremer lays an ostrich egg thread

[DaveyF]

Over at the A'gon forum...there's this thread.."http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1352569145&openflup&41&4#41". Basically the OP has an "issue " with the review that MF wrote in S'phile. The OP owns the ML 53 amps and sets about defending these amps and essentially rebutting MF's slam. The thread is an interesting read, particularly when towards the end, MF himself joins in with some comments of his own, that IMO, he didn't need to make. IMO, MF didn't need to defend himself as he did, because I feel that he had every right to write what he did....specially since i happen to agree with him 100% as to the abilities of this amp. When I heard the 53's, i thought they were broken...BUT at the time just chalked it up to a different 'taste' than mine.
As I have posted before, to me it's a 'refreshing' thing to read a review that isn't the usual 'gush' and is more discriminating in these mags. Kudos to Michael Fremer for writing it as he hears it.. ( BTW,whether or not the piece under review deserves the negative publicity is another question).

 

[TBone]

I appreciated specific ML gear ... for the most part, ML gear to my ears is ... well ... lets say that I can relate to MF review.

I appreciate MF, I like his reviews, I appreciate his "clinical" type reviews, not everything needs to be "great". And certainly his dedication to everything analog is welcome. We once exchanged emails when I asked him a specific question that required some research on his part, and he was totally forthright. That said, I'm also a fan of Arthur Salvatore whom I've met ... and we all know about his "relationship" with MF.

Hell ... if I took "clinical" reviews of my gear literally ... well ... look, you either truly(?) understand & appreciate the component in question within the confines of "your" system ... or ...

tb1

 

[audioarcher]

That is a funny thread. Basically starts out with the op's ego being hurt by the review and ends up with Fremer's ego being hurt by the post and comments.

The lesson here is don't take reviewers too seriously. Use your own ears as the final judge. Also don't take yourself too seriously either. We have all been guilty of both problems I'm sure.

Does the piece under review deserves to be slammed? I think people are better served knowing what a reviewer really thinks about a unit even if they may not agree with them. I'm sure manufactures would not agree with that though.

I applaud Fremer on having the balls to write what he did. I hope it does not come back to bite him.

 

[Andre Marc]

Over at the A'gon forum...there's this thread.."http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1352569145&openflup&41&4#41". Basically the OP has an "issue " with the review that MF wrote in S'phile. The OP owns the ML 53 amps and sets about defending these amps and essentially rebutting MF's slam. The thread is an interesting read, particularly when towards the end, MF himself joins in with some comments of his own, that IMO, he didn't need to make. IMO, MF didn't need to defend himself as he did, because I feel that he had every right to write what he did....specially since i happen to agree with him 100% as to the abilities of this amp. When I heard the 53's, i thought they were broken...BUT at the time just chalked it up to a different 'taste' than mine.
As I have posted before, to me it's a 'refreshing' thing to read a review that isn't the usual 'gush' and is more discriminating in these mags. Kudos to Michael Fremer for writing it as he hears it.. ( BTW,whether or not the piece under review deserves the negative publicity is another question).

Here is the dilemma if you are a "public person". If someone on one of the million internet boards calls you out as an *******..do you just ignore it..do you reply? Do you reply
and turn the other cheek? Do you go get the fangs out?

It is a tough call. It is also a tougher call if the poster, with anonymous moniker actually gets some facts wrong. People believe anything
they read on the internet. I ALWAYS try to post correct facts on this forum, when I am not stating an opinion. That fact can usually be backed
up with a link or a quote from a direct source.

 

[cjfrbw]

It's just as entertaining when MF comes out of the chute, horns down, bucking a few audiophiles into the dust (then the clowns show up), as the reviews.

I don't know how the reviewers maintain their composure as much as they do, John Atkinson is a marvel of restraint.

Arguments become pointless when they graduate to ad hominem, but I guess bad publicity is always better than no publicity.

Must be the audiophile version of cracking bottles over somebody's head in a bar fight.

 

[Shaffer]

Sometimes it feels pretty damn good to lash out. People get personal. It has to get under one's skin after a while.

Felix

 

[TBone]

John Atkinson is a marvel of restraint.

Totally ... when he does reply to a "questionable" comment in regard to one of his reviews (as I'd asked with a particular review that included obvious "gaps"), he's was very calculating in his reply ... so much so ... that it was easy to "read between the lines" ... as probably intended.

Fremer is more vim & fire ...

tb1

 

[Shaffer]

Totally ... when he does reply to a "questionable" comment in regard to one of his reviews (as I'd asked with a particular review that included obvious "gaps"), he's was very calculating in his reply ... so much so ... that it was easy to "read between the lines" ... as probably intended.

JA was great to read in the days of Usenet. He was fairly restrained with his language, somewhat genteel in his appraoch, but boy did he kick ass! Funny, too. What made John different is that he didn't further himself as a reviewer, an editor, an audio-celebrity, whatever. He was a guy who loved music and audio, and it showed. He did defend his magazine on occasion, as can be expected, but mostly he acted as one of the gang.

Felix

 

[MylesBAstor]

JA was great to read in the days of Usenet. He was fairly restrained with his language, somewhat genteel in his appraoch, but boy did he kick ass! Funny, too. What made John different is that he didn't further himself as a reviewer, an editor, an audio-celebrity, whatever. He was a guy who loved music and audio, and it showed. He did defend his magazine on occasion, as can be expected, but mostly he acted as one of the gang.

Felix

Loved music? He's a damn good electric bass player who did his share of studio gigs in his younger days BTW it used to be cool in the old days to see a bunch of manufacturers and reviewers such as Allen Perkins, John Atkinson, Bob Reina, Elliot Kallen, Michael Fremer, Neil Sinclair, etc.. jam together at the Mondial Glasnost party during CES.

 

[audioarcher]

Here is the dilemma if you are a "public person". If someone on one of the million internet boards calls you out as an *******..do you just ignore it..do you reply? Do you reply
and turn the other cheek? Do you go get the fangs out?

It is a tough call. It is also a tougher call if the poster, with anonymous moniker actually gets some facts wrong. People believe anything
they read on the internet. I ALWAYS try to post correct facts on this forum, when I am not stating an opinion. That fact can usually be backed
up with a link or a quote from a direct source.

Showing restraint is easier said than done. I imagine that being a public figure and having to answer to your employer/fans about what you post would be difficult.

 

[TBone]

Hell, AFAIC ... if one can review his/her own system/gear with an experienced proper pro & con perspective ... that in-itself renders any other "related" review as ... educational ... and/or ... redundant.

tb1

 

[A.wayne]

Sounds like ML is leaving out the vig when sending samples out for review ....... Anyway the guy has VR9's , how bad can the ML be ...

 

[TBone]

how bad can the ML be

I have no idea ... nor do I really care ... but I certainly understand that when I judge an amp (or speakers) within the proper context of any decent hi-end system, that "opinion" is influenced in relation (pro or con) to its front end.

tb1

 

[amirm]

Over at the A'gon forum...there's this thread.."http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1352569145&openflup&41&4#41". Basically the OP has an "issue " with the review that MF wrote in S'phile. The OP owns the ML 53 amps and sets about defending these amps and essentially rebutting MF's slam. The thread is an interesting read, particularly when towards the end, MF himself joins in with some comments of his own, that IMO, he didn't need to make. IMO, MF didn't need to defend himself as he did, because I feel that he had every right to write what he did....

It is fascinating what Michael post in that thread. Here is a quote: "Why is this such a big deal? I'll tell you why: because some of you give me WAY too much credit and then you get MAD when I don't agree with YOU. I'm just stating an opinion. Stop making such a big deal out of it. And I do agree with one poster: take what i write as ENTERTAINMENT. It's informed entertainment but it's still ENTERTAINMENT. "

All capitalization is his. I think he is on the money. What he is writing is for entertainment. That is the way that it comes across to me as I read the flowery descriptions that I cannot stitch from one review to another, or from the measurements/design of the equipment to figure out any logical connection. And it is not just his. Other reviewers are likewise situated. Here is a relevant line from JA in the measurement section of the Anthem M1 in the same issue:

"There was nothing in the amplifier's measured performance that would suggest why KR preferred the high-frequency balance of the newer amplifiers [they tested two versions]. There is nothing in the measurements that correlates with his feeling that the Statement M1's low frequencies sounded excessive, with poor definition."

For me the insights and real data is in the measurement section. I will confess to almost entirely ignoring the subjective writing other than the intros that talk about product/company design and history. The words read like poems to me.

If we all agree that this is not motor trend magazine providing expert technical assessment of car handling and instead, we are presented entertainment focused writing, then we are in better shape than we have been in these debates .

 

[rbbert]

Since I am obviously not an LP guy, I have only read a few of MF's columns. Then much to my surprise we ran into each other in 4 different rooms on Sunday morning at RAMF, and I found that he is a very likable guy and not at all dogmatic about listening to LP's. In fact the only music he was listening to was on USB stick and CD-R, although it was all LP rips Unlike Jonathan Valin, for example, with whom I've had some brief discussions at the last two RAMFs (and can't imagine wanting to spend any more time with), I could easily imagine spending an afternoon or evening with Fremer and enjoying it immensely. He's enthusiastic about music and doesn't take himself seriously.

 

[Gregadd]

Fremer gets paid to review equipment.If you don't like him. walk away. It's why I don't watch Fox news. I know it's going to **** me off.

Let me tell you a little story. A client fired me because he did not like my advice. He hired another lawyer who was able to achieve what he wanted. I saw him again and he was looking for a fight. I did not bite and congratulated him for achieving his goal. I told them that's how the system works If you don't like a lawyer , get another one.

So. if you don't like Mr. Fremer; read someone else or audition the product for yourself. Life is too short.

 

[Bruce B]

Fremer gets paid to review equipment.

Fremer gets paid?? There goes the problem!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Is anyone even surprised that Fremer didn't like the MLs?

Tim

 

[mep]

Is anyone even surprised that Fremer didn't like the MLs?

Tim

Is anyone surprised that JA didn't like them either??

 

[amirm]

Is anyone even surprised that Fremer didn't like the MLs?

Tim

It is hard to take the bias away in this regard. The notion that amp looks and walks like a "digital" system is a tough thing to set aside. When I was evaluating half a dozen amps with three of them being switching ones, it was so easy to fall pray to that. I had to constantly remind myself to not immediately think one sounded "harsh" etc just because it was a switchmode amp. The reviewers may be right of course but I am confident and would bet a lot of money that had they been told this was a class A amp, the review would have been different .