The Future

[Ken Newton]

As a kid I loved watching Sci-Fi, heck I still do. Well, Space 1999 came and went and while there are still no moon bases, I did party the way the late great Prince commanded. With 2017 closing in and no underwater bases ala Sea Lab 2020, it got me thinking....audio wise, where do I want to be by or before 2020? You know what they say, it NEVER ENDS! Well dreaming is free. What would you dream of doing? Here's mine...

Your component list, as drool worthy as it certainly is, is really a Christmas wish list rather than a dream of an audiophile future that's in the mold of Space 1999 or Sea Lab 2020. (I would add the Jetson's flying saucer cars in to that list of future advancements that have yet to come, if ever.)

As far as audiophile future visions go, the holy grail, it seems to me, is for absolute audio verisimilitude. Imagine that you were blindfolded and taken to some other physical location and seated. While still blindfolded, you hear music begin to play. At that moment, you believe that you are in a concert hall or other public venue listening to a live performance. After enjoying the performance a long while you remove the blindfold to discover that you have been listening to a reproduction in a domestic sized room. An completely convincing auditory illusion that's perceptually indistinguishable from reality. Is that even possible in a future along established technology paths?

History shows that once some desirable objective has been imagined, humanity usually makes progress toward it. However, progress does not mean that an ultimate objective will necessarily be achieved along some initially established technology path. Sometimes, an entirely different path must be taken. Perhaps, a completely convincing audio illusion will require some entirely different approach as well. None of that is to suggest that musical enjoyment isn't provided by today's equipment, it often is. However, there's a special pleasure in hearing what sounds like live music. That music doesn't even have to be enjoyable in itself. The perception of reality is it's own special excitement for the nervous system. That seems true for animals as well. My pet cat is rarely roused by sounds produced either my home theater or my music system. He instantly knows, however, the difference in character made by live sounds and responds accordingly.

As of now, it feels to me like current audio technologies on are a path of diminishing returns that may never fully realize the desired objective of a totally convincing illusion of live. The cost of some home systems today could purchase all the instruments utilized by symphony orchestra. An indication to me that our current home component technology path may not be capable of delivering a fully convincing illusion. I admit to having heard excellent systems which made an instrument or two sound momentarily convincing, but, certainly not all instruments, nor all the time. Perhaps, some future home system based on the advancement of current technology will sound totally convincing, but at what cost? If pricing of today's best components is any indication it will be in the millions of dollars.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Wouldn't DSD to DXD be a downsample? This doesn't make sense???

well......no.....DSD to DXD is not a down sample. and yes, it makes sense to get the best sounding dac and then feed everything through that.

32/24 multibit, 352/384khz compared to 11.2 million single bits (Quad dsd) is not that different. and most Quad files start out as dxd masters anyway; so that is the max data level.

if I had to choose between native dxd and native Quad dsd I would choose dxd based on what I have heard with multiple players. but I'd say I don't have enough data points to be definitive with that assessment.

the question becomes which way, done as well as it can be done, sounds better. or whether one needs to try and do both natively. but this is not a matter of one way having any clear data advantage. it might even turn out that a product like HQ Player fixing the data stream is more significant than the dac, or maybe equal. it's what I'm trying to figure out.

I do not profess to have all the answers at this point.....hence my quandary.

 

[Leif S]

Move up finally from MB Signature to MB Ultra
Switch to the star grounded MB Distribution interfaces using MB busses. Oops am I suppose to divulge that these are already in the works?

No your fine lol. Just not sure what the release dates will be. Looks like they will have two different models both with Ultra internal wiring.

 

[Leif S]

As of now, it feels to me like current audio technologies on are a path of diminishing returns that may never fully realize the desired objective of a totally convincing illusion of live. The cost of some home systems today could purchase all the instruments utilized by symphony orchestra. An indication to me that our current home component technology path may not be capable of delivering a fully convincing illusion. I admit to having heard excellent systems which made an instrument or two sound momentarily convincing, but, certainly not all instruments, nor all the time. Perhaps, some future home system based on the advancement of current technology will sound totally convincing, but at what cost? If pricing of today's best components is any indication it will be in the millions of dollars.

This has been accomplished. But your right about it costing a very large sum of money. As a matter of fact, I just sat about 8 rows back at a Cat Stevens performance a few weeks ago lol.

 

[Ken Newton]

This has been accomplished...

Leif, that is quite a bold statement. Would you provide the technical details of the system to which you refer? The brand and model of the components? Was it analog, or digital or both? What was the listening room like? What type of music was utilized?

Thanks

 

[Steve williams]

Leif, that is quite a bold statement. Would you provide the technical details of the system to which you refer? The brand and model of the components? Was it analog, or digital or both? What was the listening room like? What type of music was utilized?

Thanks

I'm guessing that Leif is referring to Jimmy's system in Manila. IMO it is the greatest system I have ever heard anywhere in the world

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...mazing-Systems&p=407940&viewfull=1#post407940

 

[Leif S]

Leif, that is quite a bold statement. Would you provide the technical details of the system to which you refer? The brand and model of the components? Was it analog, or digital or both? What was the listening room like? What type of music was utilized?

Thanks

Hi Ken,

He had both analog and digital. I have "NEVER" heard digital like this before. But the analog was of course the best lol.
I'm still in disbelief myself and processing what I experienced. I will be adding to Steve William's thread "One Amigo's visit" over the next few days and talk about some of the people I met and their wonderful systems. The sad part is, only a few people will most likely experience this system

 

[Leif S]

I'm guessing that Leif is referring to Jimmy's system in Manila. IMO it is the greatest system I have ever heard anywhere in the world

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...mazing-Systems&p=407940&viewfull=1#post407940

Ya think

 

[Steve williams]

So I am correct in assuming it is Jimmy's system. And yes how sad that only very few people will ever hear this system

 

[andromedaaudio]

Wow , nice system

Does he run the wavac on the main tower or the vac , if i see it good , or are there some VTL s in the back ground , the woofertowers in the VS have their own amp ??

 

[Ken Newton]

Leif, that's quite an impressive looking system. Thanks, for the details.

 

[Leif S]

So I am correct in assuming it is Jimmy's system. And yes how sad that only very few people will ever hear this system

Haha...................

I'm still blown away at what I heard at your house the other day

 

[Kingsrule]

well......no.....DSD to DXD is not a down sample. and yes, it makes sense to get the best sounding dac and then feed everything through that.

32/24 multibit, 352/384khz compared to 11.2 million single bits (Quad dsd) is not that different. and most Quad files start out as dxd masters anyway; so that is the max data level.

if I had to choose between native dxd and native Quad dsd I would choose dxd based on what I have heard with multiple players. but I'd say I don't have enough data points to be definitive with that assessment.

the question becomes which way, done as well as it can be done, sounds better. or whether one needs to try and do both natively. but this is not a matter of one way having any clear data advantage. it might even turn out that a product like HQ Player fixing the data stream is more significant than the dac, or maybe equal. it's what I'm trying to figure out.

I do not profess to have all the answers at this point.....hence my quandary.

They are different and DSD to DXD is downsampled no matter what the original format was.. that doesn't mean or imply how downsampled DSD would sound. One has nothing to do with the other. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.....

 

[Leif S]

Leif, that's quite an impressive looking system. Thanks, for the details.

Hi Ken,

It was awesome. Everything from the ground up was taken into consideration for optimum performance. I'm not joking when I say that system caught every aspect of a live performance. I can only dream to have a system like that. I'm not a very good writer but I will do my best to share my visit to these systems.

 

[Leif S]

Wow , nice system

Does he run the wavac on the main tower or the vac , if i see it good , or are there some VTL s in the back ground , the woofertowers in the VS have their own amp ??

The VAC's are running the mid/tweets with the VTL's running the bass drivers. The sub towers have 4- 1000 watt amps(one for each sub driver) with controls for volume,xover frequency, and phase control on each amp.

 

[RogerD]

This has been accomplished. But your right about it costing a very large sum of money. As a matter of fact, I just sat about 8 rows back at a Cat Stevens performance a few weeks ago lol.

Your component list, as drool worthy as it certainly is, is really a Christmas wish list rather than a dream of an audiophile future that's in the mold of Space 1999 or Sea Lab 2020. (I would add the Jetson's flying saucer cars in to that list of future advancements that have yet to come, if ever.)

As far as audiophile future visions go, the holy grail, it seems to me, is for absolute audio verisimilitude. Imagine that you were blindfolded and taken to some other physical location and seated. While still blindfolded, you hear music begin to play. At that moment, you believe that you are in a concert hall or other public venue listening to a live performance. After enjoying the performance a long while you remove the blindfold to discover that you have been listening to a reproduction in a domestic sized room. An completely convincing auditory illusion that's perceptually indistinguishable from reality. Is that even possible in a future along established technology paths?

History shows that once some desirable objective has been imagined, humanity usually makes progress toward it. However, progress does not mean that an ultimate objective will necessarily be achieved along some initially established technology path. Sometimes, an entirely different path must be taken. Perhaps, a completely convincing audio illusion will require some entirely different approach as well. None of that is to suggest that musical enjoyment isn't provided by today's equipment, it often is. However, there's a special pleasure in hearing what sounds like live music. That music doesn't even have to be enjoyable in itself. The perception of reality is it's own special excitement for the nervous system. That seems true for animals as well. My pet cat is rarely roused by sounds produced either my home theater or my music system. He instantly knows, however, the difference in character made by live sounds and responds accordingly.

As of now, it feels to me like current audio technologies on are a path of diminishing returns that may never fully realize the desired objective of a totally convincing illusion of live. The cost of some home systems today could purchase all the instruments utilized by symphony orchestra. An indication to me that our current home component technology path may not be capable of delivering a fully convincing illusion. I admit to having heard excellent systems which made an instrument or two sound momentarily convincing, but, certainly not all instruments, nor all the time. Perhaps, some future home system based on the advancement of current technology will sound totally convincing, but at what cost? If pricing of today's best components is any indication it will be in the millions of dollars.

I would disagree to some extent, Noise removal can take any system way beyond what most listen to normally. I think it is a shame that such a simple technology costs so much. But given the high end market,that's what it is and the majority would never rack mount a system or strap a system that was not aesthetically pleasing. Continue on with this thread as it was intended. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Ken Newton]

Hi Ken,

He had both analog and digital. I have "NEVER" heard digital like this before...

Leif, as it turns out, I have a particular technical curiosity around the execution of musical sounding digital front ends. Do you happen to recall the digital components that were utilized in Jimmy's system? I can't discern them in the photo. Thanks.

 

[microstrip]

(...) And yes how sad that only very few people will ever hear this system

Steve,

I have to disagree with all this sadness in an usually happy season ... . Sound reproduction and being an audiophile is an wonderful hobby and I can not find anything sad in the fact I will probably never listen to such system or many others. I would be very happy to listen to them, and probably would enjoy a lot more meeting the great people who own them, but I do not consider that listening to great systems in large rooms is such an absolute and mandatory experience for most audiophiles.

It is great to know that expertise, technology, enthusiasm and resources can create such blowing experiences, and reading about them is enjoyable, even without participating. Besides we can learn from them if we know how to read. But this hobby has so many facets that I can not consider sad just that we miss one of them.

Happy Holidays!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

They are different and DSD to DXD is downsampled no matter what the original format was.. that doesn't mean or imply how downsampled DSD would sound. One has nothing to do with the other. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.....

when a session is recorded to dxd, and then mixed and converted to Quad dsd....I don't view that as down-sampling. more like 'cross sampling'. to me down-sampling is lowering the sample rate or bit volume. up sampling is raising the sample rate or bit volume.

maybe this is just semantics and we are meaning the same things.

 

[microstrip]

(...) As far as audiophile future visions go, the holy grail, it seems to me, is for absolute audio verisimilitude. Imagine that you were blindfolded and taken to some other physical location and seated. While still blindfolded, you hear music begin to play. At that moment, you believe that you are in a concert hall or other public venue listening to a live performance. After enjoying the performance a long while you remove the blindfold to discover that you have been listening to a reproduction in a domestic sized room. An completely convincing auditory illusion that's perceptually indistinguishable from reality. Is that even possible in a future along established technology paths? (...)

Although this would be theoretically possible, IMHO it is not the objective of sound reproduction. Sound reproduction must take in consideration that it wants to reproduce a real experience where you were not blindfolded and where you have used your sight, emotional experience and brains to create the whole scene. Only much later on you put the blindfold and try to recreate an enjoyable experience.