The inaudibility of Ethernet

[marty]

In any serious listening session I may listen to an hour’s worth of beautiful, new (to me) classical music with one or two favorites thrown in all courtesy of the Swiss (Swiss Radio Classic)

Their radio is a lot like their public transport and health system. Runs like clockwork, to a very high standard, with music as beautiful as their country. (Swiss)

This just caught my eye and is a comment I appreciate. Yes, I have a lot of the usual high quality musical sources (CD's, LP's). But well over 75% of the music I listen to during the day is Radio Swiss Classical (morning) and Radio Swiss Jazz (afternoon). Superb curating and high quality throughout. Rado Swiss Jazz is particularly impressive because it plays a lot of music by excellent European musicians that nobody has ever heard of who I would not otherwise ever get to hear.

 

[tony22]

Hi love both stations as well, but what I find especially with Radio Swiss Classical is that if you listen to it enough, you start hearing a bit of repetition in the music.

 

[sparkie]

The problem with Ethernet is not packet loss. It’s jitter. The jitter changes as the packet goes through each device. The end result for text data is none, but for music the jitter is audible.

Jitter I imagine is why someone would make "a fancy cable" but its not needed in certain applications and sometimes jitter is not caused by the cabling.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Jitter I imagine is why someone would make "a fancy cable" but its not needed in certain applications and sometimes jitter is not caused by the cabling.

Hard evidence: a network affects playback quality

Does networking make a difference in your hi-fi system? Yes... 100%. It is audible and also just plain measurable.

www.alpha-audio.net

 

[TonyE]

The problem with ethernet audio seems to be related to conducted electrical noise into the downstream DAC. People, myself included, are making huge gains with better designed switches, better power supplies and, crucially, fibre ethernet connections which completely isolate the network electrical noise from the downstream audio equipment. The differences in sound quality, once you address the issues, are not at all subtle.

Pfft.... if that's the case, use a wireless connection.

No chance of electrical noise.

BTW, I got 1600 feet of Cat56E at home, with three managed switches in the back bone with spanning tree configured. Each room has at least one drop and an unmanaged switch. We also have three wireless access points throughout the house in a home made roaming configuration. With 120TB of NAS storage.

I don't hear any difference in sound made by ethernet. None.

IMHO, and experience, you just need to use a proper grounding schema throughout the house. Many people have crappy power and blame it on their components. We rebuilt our house from scratch and I paid close attention to the wiring and grounding. To the point where we have dedicated home runs for the main audio and video systems and the computer network and file servers.

My DACs? RME ADI-2 FS AD/DAC, Burson Play with Burson op amps, Nitsch Peitus Maximus with Multibit, Topping D90LE and a collection of Nuforce and Topping portable units.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Pfft.... if that's the case, use a wireless connection.

No chance of electrical noise.

BTW, I got 1600 feet of Cat56E at home, with three managed switches in the back bone with spanning tree configured. Each room has at least one drop and an unmanaged switch. We also have three wireless access points throughout the house in a home made roaming configuration. With 120TB of NAS storage.

I don't hear any difference in sound made by ethernet. None.

IMHO, and experience, you just need to use a proper grounding schema throughout the house. Many people have crappy power and blame it on their components. We rebuilt our house from scratch and I paid close attention to the wiring and grounding. To the point where we have dedicated home runs for the main audio and video systems and the computer network and file servers.

My DACs? RME ADI-2 FS AD/DAC, Burson Play with Burson op amps, Nitsch Peitus Maximus with Multibit, Topping D90LE and a collection of Nuforce and Topping portable units.

Why I have Fiber Optic...... enjoy your wi-fi...

 

[TonyE]

Why I have Fiber Optic...... enjoy your wi-fi...

I have wired and wireless. And I gave you the list of DACs, which you might note do not have wireless ethernet connections on them.

But you didn't read it, because, oh.... well...... you just want to ignore me... but ultimately, my point prevails.

1600 feet of CAT5e. Did you miss that?

I also run SFP between my three backbone switches, the NAS are wired directly via GigE to one of the switches. The whole thing is optimized. Connections are all done with the best wires I can get off eBay, no Wisdom in my Cables, Not cheap wires, mind you, just good electronic and mechanical connections. Besides, I do my own terminations.

Did you run the entire LAN with fiber? I doubt it, unless you have an extremely simple LAN. How do you take the data from your network storage to the DAC? How do you wire your Internet music servers to your DAC?

Heck, using Perfect Bit, I can get my Android devices to drive the DACs via USB-OTG to 24/96 and 24/192. Over many years of recording my own LPs, I found out that 24/96 gives me an almost perfect copy of the recording. Of course, then I change something in the analog chain and.. well... I take care of my records and use Internet distros at 24/96 nowadays. Some at 24/48 (hoping the Chromebooks fix that one of these days).

My power distribution to the house...hmm.. .well, we rebuilt the entire house, with a 300A box. Lots of dedicated circuits. Main stereo has two homeruns, HT has another two homeruns, hospital grade outlets. No ground loops, no noise, no hash... clean power. A fundamentally good design with no need to patch things after the fact.

No fancy names, just really good wiring, 30A Romex in the walls.

BTW, let me ask you a question.... have you ever programmed a USB device... like, write a device driver for it. You know, where you sit with a bus analyzer for months on end to ensure that you can buffer the data correctly? Worked with the hardware guys?

Have you done internetworking design and programming work? You know, writing stacks, testing networking hardware gear? Being in the business of companies that design internetworking gear?

Have you done audio/video/data IP based distribution? I was doing that in the bad old days of the early 90s, before we had HTML even.

Once you've done that, you don't need to fancy sounding Reference Mk II wires or switches.... it doesn't make a difference when both sides of the data link connection are properly isolated in time and ground. A clean connection, with low noise at both ends, with decoupled clocks and RAM is all you need to communicate data. It works for video as well. Which is a much larger data pipe. Again, asynchronous connections, with separate clocks and low noise.

There is no need for your Uptone EtherRegen, Sonore OpticalModule Delux.... My stuff is not Ultimate, I guess I have not reached the end point. I mean, if it rocks your boat, so be it, but don't expect everybody to believe you.

And mind you, I'm as anti ASR as they come. I love negative 2nd order harmonic myself. But when it comes to digital communications, well that one, it's snake oil. Many audiophiles, even the ones that know the in and out of analog electronics ( not the marketing, the actual engineering part of it ) don't always realize this.

Any how, I got lots of systems at home... to list them would take a long page.... not many fancy names though, just a collection of DIY and commercial units with rather plain names and numbers. None of my components are Legato, Zenith, Sonore... No Multicancione Audiobiliti Nervosa Molto Excellence stuff, I'm afraid... Just a bunch of numbers, F4, F5, Aleph 2, Aleph 5, SIT, MF21, D70, ST200, P3, P7, A8.... rather plain names I'm afraid don't give me much power in the bragging dept... but the sound is fantastic and my electric bill is heroic.

I think Tony22 above would recognize my systems by the components that he listed.

Anyhow, the sound in my house may not be called "Delux" but it sure sounds deluxe enough. And my Intranet components are solid professional units.

Oh, yes, I forgot, did you get how I configured my access points to be a DIY roaming system? Not hard to do if you know how to configure the boxes. Otherwise, well, you can go spend 1000 bucks for some fancy boxes.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

I have wired and wireless. And I gave you the list of DACs, which you might note do not have wireless ethernet connections on them.

But you didn't read it, because, oh.... well...... you just want to ignore me... but ultimately, my point prevails.

1600 feet of CAT5e. Did you miss that?

I also run SFP between my three backbone switches, the NAS are wired directly via GigE to one of the switches. The whole thing is optimized. Connections are all done with the best wires I can get off eBay, no Wisdom in my Cables, Not cheap wires, mind you, just good electronic and mechanical connections. Besides, I do my own terminations.

Did you run the entire LAN with fiber? I doubt it, unless you have an extremely simple LAN. How do you take the data from your network storage to the DAC? How do you wire your Internet music servers to your DAC?

Heck, using Perfect Bit, I can get my Android devices to drive the DACs via USB-OTG to 24/96 and 24/192. Over many years of recording my own LPs, I found out that 24/96 gives me an almost perfect copy of the recording. Of course, then I change something in the analog chain and.. well... I take care of my records and use Internet distros at 24/96 nowadays. Some at 24/48 (hoping the Chromebooks fix that one of these days).

My power distribution to the house...hmm.. .well, we rebuilt the entire house, with a 300A box. Lots of dedicated circuits. Main stereo has two homeruns, HT has another two homeruns, hospital grade outlets. No ground loops, no noise, no hash... clean power. A fundamentally good design with no need to patch things after the fact.

No fancy names, just really good wiring, 30A Romex in the walls.

BTW, let me ask you a question.... have you ever programmed a USB device... like, write a device driver for it. You know, where you sit with a bus analyzer for months on end to ensure that you can buffer the data correctly? Worked with the hardware guys?

Have you done internetworking design and programming work? You know, writing stacks, testing networking hardware gear? Being in the business of companies that design internetworking gear?

Have you done audio/video/data IP based distribution? I was doing that in the bad old days of the early 90s, before we had HTML even.

Once you've done that, you don't need to fancy sounding Reference Mk II wires or switches.... it doesn't make a difference when both sides of the data link connection are properly isolated in time and ground. A clean connection, with low noise at both ends, with decoupled clocks and RAM is all you need to communicate data. It works for video as well. Which is a much larger data pipe. Again, asynchronous connections, with separate clocks and low noise.

There is no need for your Uptone EtherRegen, Sonore OpticalModule Delux.... My stuff is not Ultimate, I guess I have not reached the end point. I mean, if it rocks your boat, so be it, but don't expect everybody to believe you.

And mind you, I'm as anti ASR as they come. I love negative 2nd order harmonic myself. But when it comes to digital communications, well that one, it's snake oil. Many audiophiles, even the ones that know the in and out of analog electronics ( not the marketing, the actual engineering part of it ) don't always realize this.

Any how, I got lots of systems at home... to list them would take a long page.... not many fancy names though, just a collection of DIY and commercial units with rather plain names and numbers. None of my components are Legato, Zenith, Sonore... No Multicancione Audiobiliti Nervosa Molto Excellence stuff, I'm afraid... Just a bunch of numbers, F4, F5, Aleph 2, Aleph 5, SIT, MF21, D70, ST200, P3, P7, A8.... rather plain names I'm afraid don't give me much power in the bragging dept... but the sound is fantastic and my electric bill is heroic.

I think Tony22 above would recognize my systems by the components that he listed.

Anyhow, the sound in my house may not be called "Delux" but it sure sounds deluxe enough. And my Intranet components are solid professional units.

Oh, yes, I forgot, did you get how I configured my access points to be a DIY roaming system? Not hard to do if you know how to configure the boxes. Otherwise, well, you can go spend 1000 bucks for some fancy boxes.

Yes I am going to ignore you.

 

[sbnx]

Pfft.... if that's the case, use a wireless connection.

No chance of electrical noise.


I don't hear any difference in sound made by ethernet. None.

The board that receives the WiFi signal and distributes it within the component is a source of noise.

If you don't hear a different then good. That will save you money. The rest of us that clearly hear the deliterious effects of an ethernet connection have to spend money on other things to ameliorate the harmful effects.

 

[italia]

Fully eliminating wifi from my streaming signal path was a clearly beneficial move in reducing noise in my system. YMMV

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Fully eliminating wifi from my streaming signal path was a clearly beneficial move in reducing noise in my system. YMMV

Careful Tony is an expert.

 

[TonyE]

Careful Tony is an expert.

As a matter of fact, I am.

And boards making noise.... all boards make noise. It's just a matter of careful design, grounding and shielding. That's all. If you hear noise artifacts in your system I suggest you look into your AC, perhaps add some homeruns to your set up. If you can't, then the second option will be a power regenerator.

While you're at it, make sure your room sounds good... acoustics, background noise, etc...

However, if you want to spend tons of money on commercial products with fancy -almost ridiculous- names, well, go for it.

Look, eons ago I listened to the MPingo discs. A dealer demo'ed them on a set of MBL Radialstrahler speakers and some really nice Levinson gear. Did they make a difference, yes. Was it worth it? To me, no.

So, all of these components you're adding. They might make a difference, they might not. Are they worth the hundreds, thousands of dollars you are spending on them? It's subjective. If you want to spend the money and you are having fun, so be it.

Like I said, there are other parts of your system where money will be better be spent... like fully decked out Linn LP12 or Technics SL1000 instead of a Thorens. Like a Pass or a CJ phono preamp... that money will be best spent on your system.

Heck, if you must go commercial just buy a good amp for cryin' out loud... go spend your money on a First Watt or Pass amp, or a used CJ Premier One or ARC VT200 Mk II. You will indeed hear that.

I thought this guy was ignoring me... he even sent me a PM just to make sure I know about it. Pfffft...

 

[Republicoftexas69]

As a matter of fact, I am.

And boards making noise.... all boards make noise. It's just a matter of careful design, grounding and shielding. That's all. If you hear noise artifacts in your system I suggest you look into your AC, perhaps add some homeruns to your set up. If you can't, then the second option will be a power regenerator.

While you're at it, make sure your room sounds good... acoustics, background noise, etc...

However, if you want to spend tons of money on commercial products with fancy -almost ridiculous- names, well, go for it.

Look, eons ago I listened to the MPingo discs. A dealer demo'ed them on a set of MBL Radialstrahler speakers and some really nice Levinson gear. Did they make a difference, yes. Was it worth it? To me, no.

So, all of these components you're adding. They might make a difference, they might not. Are they worth the hundreds, thousands of dollars you are spending on them? It's subjective. If you want to spend the money and you are having fun, so be it.

Like I said, there are other parts of your system where money will be better be spent... like fully decked out Linn LP12 or Technics SL1000 instead of a Thorens. Like a Pass or a CJ phono preamp... that money will be best spent on your system.

Heck, if you must go commercial just buy a good amp for cryin' out loud... go spend your money on a First Watt or Pass amp, or a used CJ Premier One or ARC VT200 Mk II. You will indeed hear that.

I thought this guy was ignoring me... he even sent me a PM just to make sure I know about it. Pfffft...

Sure.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

As a matter of fact, I am.

And boards making noise.... all boards make noise. It's just a matter of careful design, grounding and shielding. That's all. If you hear noise artifacts in your system I suggest you look into your AC, perhaps add some homeruns to your set up. If you can't, then the second option will be a power regenerator.

While you're at it, make sure your room sounds good... acoustics, background noise, etc...

However, if you want to spend tons of money on commercial products with fancy -almost ridiculous- names, well, go for it.

Look, eons ago I listened to the MPingo discs. A dealer demo'ed them on a set of MBL Radialstrahler speakers and some really nice Levinson gear. Did they make a difference, yes. Was it worth it? To me, no.

So, all of these components you're adding. They might make a difference, they might not. Are they worth the hundreds, thousands of dollars you are spending on them? It's subjective. If you want to spend the money and you are having fun, so be it.

Like I said, there are other parts of your system where money will be better be spent... like fully decked out Linn LP12 or Technics SL1000 instead of a Thorens. Like a Pass or a CJ phono preamp... that money will be best spent on your system.

Heck, if you must go commercial just buy a good amp for cryin' out loud... go spend your money on a First Watt or Pass amp, or a used CJ Premier One or ARC VT200 Mk II. You will indeed hear that.

I thought this guy was ignoring me... he even sent me a PM just to make sure I know about it. Pfffft...

Yawn. My Thorens is perfect for my use, Have owned it since new, have made upgrades and will put up against your Linn LOL. Hey so why don't you list your gear Mr., expert and post it in the member gallery. Back to the ignore button for you.

 

[TonyE]

Yawn. My Thorens is perfect for my use, Have owned it since new, have made upgrades and will put up against your Linn LOL. Hey so why don't you list your gear Mr., expert and post it in the member gallery. Back to the ignore button for you.

Thorens? Your use? Pfft.... today? mid fi at best.... like the people who want 800 for a Marantz 2220B ( I bought one of those for 200 bucks new in '74 at the Hickam PX )... It's vintage, a vintage sound and other than looking nice, it sounds vintage ( I got six vintage units, all fully restored to OEM... so I can compare them to modern units ).

Putting it up against my LP12...sure... Lingo, Radikal, Trampolin... you have no clue. do you? I've had that table for over 35 years now ( my 3rd TT ) and like Grand Pa's ax, it's the "same"....

And, I'm not gonna list my stuff because I'm not gonna spend two pages to show off my systems. I'm not here to boast, I'll tell you one thing though... I even have an SL1000HF with MDP700 and editing board. Yep... bought them all new. Working fine still.

Besides... I have nothing "delux" in my systems.

And I thought you were ignoring me.... you even sent me a PM telling me that you were ignoring me.

In any event, you can not argue the points I made, just attempt to ridicule me.... well.... I guess I stand. And you agree with my point about ethernet: a properly set up system, in regards to noise will not exhibit noise artifacts over ethernet. This assumes you didn't go out and buy cheap 5 buck network hubs, but at least spent 60 bucks on your switches, put up reasonable good cables and have good terminations. Again, nothing that will cost hundreds/thousands of dollars. Just look at what your IT and network admins use at work... that kind of stuff. If you hear a change of sound due to your network connections, then look at the AC wiring in your system first, then look at the connections.

BTW, I sure hope you are running Svetlanas in your amp. IMHO, they sound the best. Perhaps not measure the best, but sound the best for sure.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Thorens? Your use? Pfft.... today? mid fi at best.... like the people who want 800 for a Marantz 2220B ( I bought one of those for 200 bucks new in '74 at the Hickam PX )... It's vintage, a vintage sound and other than looking nice, it sounds vintage ( I got six vintage units, all fully restored to OEM... so I can compare them to modern units ).

Putting it up against my LP12...sure... Lingo, Radikal, Trampolin... you have no clue. do you? I've had that table for over 35 years now ( my 3rd TT ) and like Grand Pa's ax, it's the "same"....

And, I'm not gonna list my stuff because I'm not gonna spend two pages to show off my systems. I'm not here to boast, I'll tell you one thing though... I even have an SL1000HF with MDP700 and editing board. Yep... bought them all new. Working fine still.

Besides... I have nothing "delux" in my systems.

And I thought you were ignoring me.... you even sent me a PM telling me that you were ignoring me.

In any event, you can not argue the points I made, just attempt to ridicule me.... well.... I guess I stand. And you agree with my point about ethernet.

BTW, I sure hope you are running Svetlanas in your amp. IMHO, they sound the best. Perhaps not measure the best, but sound the best for sure.

Wow. I am now for sure, no Telefunken. So long Richard. Take your Agon attitude and move along. Oh and I do not agree, wifi is noise period and who is using a $5.00 switch. You? I am not ridiculing you, you came here looking to mix it up. Buh Bye.

 

[Argonaut]

Yes I am going to ignore you.

On which of your accounts here ?

 

[Republicoftexas69]

On which of your accounts here ?

I only have one, only one I have ever had.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

On which of your accounts here ?

Ignored again, such a child.

 

[Argonaut]

I only have one, only one I have ever had.

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