The Ken Kessler theory

[Robh3606]

I've never had a HT system and probably never will. Car chases and gun shots are a waste of fidelity, IMO.

Hello Tim

Depends on how you look at it and how you got into HT. I look at my HT system as an extension of my original 2 channel set-up. That's really what happened. A well set-up HT can do stereo just fine especially when it starts that way. You have the option to keep it all analog with the pass through capability in some set-ups. There are also plenty of high quality options besides a basic receiver.

Bottom line is it's fun and you can share it with the rest of the family where 2 channel is a much more singular experience. I hear you on the car chases but that fidelity brings a lot to the table and enjoyment as you are watching the film. It's amazing how good the Foley artists are. You can go from the jungle to the streets of Manhattan and it sounds pretty convincing coupled with the video.

Rob

 

[GaryProtein]

I've never had a HT system and probably never will. Car chases and gun shots are a waste of fidelity, IMO.

Tim

I completely agree.

There's more and more live music being released this way, though.

I would rather have a studio recording than a recording of just about any live performance. VERY VERY FEW live performances are as well recorded or as good a performance as results from a studio recording. This is especially true of non-classical music recordings.

A recording is a performance laid down for posterity. I am not opposed to a cut and paste recording to make the recording as high quality and the "performance" as close to perfect as possible and without the little accoutrements, vocal trills, syncopation and off key harmonization many performers like to throw into a live performance to personalize it. Besides, I DON'T want to hear the crowd cheering because they love it. If I go to a concert, I expect to be entertained by what is on stage, not have the audience standing, clapping and cheering being a part of the performance experience.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I completely agree.



I would rather have a studio recording than a recording of just about any live performance. VERY VERY FEW live performances are as well recorded or as good a performance as results from a studio recording. This is especially true of non-classical music recordings.

A recording is a performance laid down for posterity. I am not opposed to a cut and paste recording to make the recording as high quality and the "performance" as close to perfect as possible and without the little accoutrements, vocal trills, syncopation and off key harmonization many performers like to throw into a live performance to personalize it. Besides, I DON'T want to hear the crowd cheering because they love it. If I go to a concert, I expect to be entertained by what is on stage, not have the audience standing, clapping and cheering being a part of the performance experience.

I've actually found many live albums I like a lot, but I love good studio craft as well. The lost art, IMO, is the "live, in-studio" recording. Very few have been done since the mid 60s, and if you start with a really good-sounding room, set a small ensemble up and mic them properly, then let them play, you can get much of the quiet and contol of the studio with the magic and sponteneity of musicians playing together. Vocals are challenging, though, and often the vocals recorded during the original performance end up coverd by an overdub. Still, it's a great way to capture that interaction between musicians without recording in an uncontrolled venue setting.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Hello Tim

Depends on how you look at it and how you got into HT. I look at my HT system as an extension of my original 2 channel set-up. That's really what happened. A well set-up HT can do stereo just fine especially when it starts that way. You have the option to keep it all analog with the pass through capability in some set-ups. There are also plenty of high quality options besides a basic receiver.

Bottom line is it's fun and you can share it with the rest of the family where 2 channel is a much more singular experience. I hear you on the car chases but that fidelity brings a lot to the table and enjoyment as you are watching the film. It's amazing how good the Foley artists are. You can go from the jungle to the streets of Manhattan and it sounds pretty convincing coupled with the video.

Rob

Here's where the grumpy old man in me comes out -- I hate the extreme dynamic range of movies at home (and sometimes even in the theater).

When the movie soundtrack goes from a whisper to a scream....half the time, even if I'm home alone, I find myself turning down extended loud passages, then riding the volume control back up so I can hear the dialogue in the next scene. I just don't like it that loud. And I certainly don't want to try to watch something like that when there are other people in the house doing other things. It's rude. This annoys me to no end, even with my simple TV audio. I've been around plenty of big HT systems and I know they just exaggerate the effect.

I wish the entertainment industry would stop compressing my music and start compressing my TV audio (or give me the option). They mix and master movies as if everybody in the world has a dedicated, sound-proofed HT room and a really bad jones for a raging case of tinitus. Rant over.

Tim

 

[AMP]

Here's where the grumpy old man in me comes out -- I hate the extreme dynamic range of movies at home (and sometimes even in the theater).

I'm with you on this. There's nothing more annoying than having to keep one hand on the remote throughout an entire movie to make sure that you can understand the dialogue and not go deaf from the sound effects and music. It's gotten out of hand.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I'm with you on this. There's nothing more annoying than having to keep one hand on the remote throughout an entire movie to make sure that you can understand the dialogue and not go deaf from the sound effects and music. It's gotten out of hand.

Totally out of control. I have a 15-year-old son, so we watch a few action movies. Even just playing the audio through the speakers of the Panasonic TV requires riding the volume control. The people who produce these things need to get back in touch with who the home audience is and how they're using the product.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

(...) Depends on how you look at it and how you got into HT. I look at my HT system as an extension of my original 2 channel set-up. That's really what happened. A well set-up HT can do stereo just fine especially when it starts that way. You have the option to keep it all analog with the pass through capability in some set-ups. There are also plenty of high quality options besides a basic receiver.

Bottom line is it's fun and you can share it with the rest of the family where 2 channel is a much more singular experience. I hear you on the car chases but that fidelity brings a lot to the table and enjoyment as you are watching the film. It's amazing how good the Foley artists are. You can go from the jungle to the streets of Manhattan and it sounds pretty convincing coupled with the video.

Rob

Rob,

I think you are pointing an interesting aspect - can an HT system complement a stereo system? IMHO, as long as your stereo system as an HT feed through channel and you have a separate processor and complement the system with speakers that match your mains it is possible. But I have to say I have never seen a primary HT system with great stereo performance.

And yes, high quality sound is a fundamental part of enjoying a movie. It is much more than loudness and directional information. The soundtrack of most movies has high quality and it helps recreating the original ambiance and drama and facts being depicted or recreated.

 

[microstrip]

Here's where the grumpy old man in me comes out -- I hate the extreme dynamic range of movies at home (and sometimes even in the theater).

When the movie soundtrack goes from a whisper to a scream....half the time, even if I'm home alone, I find myself turning down extended loud passages, then riding the volume control back up so I can hear the dialogue in the next scene. I just don't like it that loud. And I certainly don't want to try to watch something like that when there are other people in the house doing other things. It's rude. This annoys me to no end, even with my simple TV audio. I've been around plenty of big HT systems and I know they just exaggerate the effect.

I wish the entertainment industry would stop compressing my music and start compressing my TV audio (or give me the option). They mix and master movies as if everybody in the world has a dedicated, sound-proofed HT room and a really bad jones for a raging case of tinitus. Rant over.

Tim

Tim,

Although this happens in many movies, having a high quality center channel can help a lot. The day I inserted a very good center channel in our AV system in the family room (at that time it was a Martin Logan Logos electrostatic speaker) we could reduce the average levels and still understand the dialogue perfectly. However, if by any reason the HT system is not working properly - either because some one changed the setup or disconnected a cable when cleaning behind the system - and the sound must go through the big plasma speakers it must be played much louder. And the intelligibility versus level also depends on the quality of the processor.

 

[jazdoc]

I think sometimes we are so involved in our hobby that we forget that 99.9% of people just want to listen to music. Does an iphone or ipod fulfill that need for most people?...absolutely. Factor in convenience and portability and this solution is all most people need. We need to reconcile that audiophiles are connoisseurs of sound quality and our hobby will have only limited appeal. A couple of generations ago, the only way to listen to music in the home was via radio and with a turntable based system. Was this more communal?...certainly. Did home theater peel away folks at the margin of the high end?...no doubt.

High end audio is ALWAYS dying, just like jazz and classical music. I happen to think there will always be a small segment of the population that desires better sound and are willing to put up with the lack of convenience and cost to achieve it. Despite the death of the brick and mortar distribution model, the equipment choices seem more expansive than ever. There's never been a better time for folks to get extremely good sound for the money, as computer based audio can give you a large bit of the high end for relatively cheap. While not the ultimate, it's pretty darn good. And at the lunatic fringe, i.e. the average WBF member, the equipment sound quality and software choices have never been better.

I remain a cynical optimist.

 

[Bill Hart]

I think sometimes we are so involved in our hobby that we forget that 99.9% of people just want to listen to music. Does an iphone or ipod fulfill that need for most people?...absolutely. Factor in convenience and portability and this solution is all most people need. We need to reconcile that audiophiles are connoisseurs of sound quality and our hobby will have only limited appeal. A couple of generations ago, the only way to listen to music in the home was via radio and with a turntable based system. Was this more communal?...certainly. Did home theater peel away folks at the margin of the high end?...no doubt.

High end audio is ALWAYS dying, just like jazz and classical music. I happen to think there will always be a small segment of the population that desires better sound and are willing to put up with the lack of convenience and cost to achieve it. Despite the death of the brick and mortar distribution model, the equipment choices seem more expansive than ever. There's never been a better time for folks to get extremely good sound for the money, as computer based audio can give you a large bit of the high end for relatively cheap. While not the ultimate, it's pretty darn good. And at the lunatic fringe, i.e. the average WBF member, the equipment sound quality and software choices have never been better.

I remain a cynical optimist.

But Doc, those old radios had tubes, and great cabinets, some with nice-sized speakers, etc.

 

[Gregadd]

I've never had a HT system and probably never will. Car chases and gun shots are a waste of fidelity, IMO.

Tim

Have you ever seen Jurasic Park with excellent HT?

 

[Bill Hart]

Have you ever seen Jurasic Park with excellent HT?

I used to scare the living **** out of people with that, even back in the laser disc days with an AC 3 converter.
The other one that made people squirm was Cliffhanger- the first scene, where that woman is hanging from the wire over a crazy high gorge. haven't watched either of them since the laserdisc days.

 

[cjfrbw]

Mine was U-571 when the surround sound system was fully implemented. With a big screen and the sounds of the metal crunching, spurting pipes approaching pings in a dark room, it was terrifying.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Mine was U-571 when the surround sound system was fully implemented. With a big screen and the sounds of the metal crunching, spurting pipes approaching pings in a dark room, it was terrifying.

+1. What a great movie!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Have you ever seen Jurasic Park with excellent HT?

In the theater. That's where I want to keep that kind of volume. YMMV. I don't often listen to music very loud either. I play in a rock band. I get my fill.

Tim

 

[Bill Hart]

In the theater. That's where I want to keep that kind of volume. YMMV. I don't often listen to music very loud either. I play in a rock band. I get my fill.

Tim

Tim, i'm not Mr. HT, but I'll tell you it's way more than about volume- when i was running my old HT back in the 90's, it was all ARC tube amps, two sets of big woofers, pretty large Snell speakers, and although i wouldn't called it 'nuanced' in a hi-fi sense, it wasn't bright, loud ear ringing stuff. We are talking about the sound of a dinosaur breathing in such a way that the hairs on the back of your neck start to stand up. It's that primal response, at a non-thinking, animal level, that caused the terror, and not about bashing you in the head. That's how I remember it, anyway.
And, for what it's worth, I don't listen to music terribly loud over my horn system, it's about dynamic contrast and reducing the noise floor to the point where you are hearing what the instruments do, and not the system playing at you. To get it to resolve with a level of naturalness that doesn't require sheer volume to get 'detail' or 'thereness.'
Just sayin.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

In the theater. That's where I want to keep that kind of volume. YMMV. I don't often listen to music very loud either. I play in a rock band. I get my fill.

Tim

I don't play in a band, but I'm with you. Don't like when anything is excessively loud. Most cinemas are IMO, which is why don't go that often.

 

[Gregadd]

Just for the record the members comments about HT are valid. When I talk about including video I don't necessarily mean HT. I'm talking about a video with a gi-end quality sound. llike this:

 

[Robh3606]

Here's where the grumpy old man in me comes out -- I hate the extreme dynamic range of movies at home (and sometimes even in the theater).

Hello Tim

I have been to several theaters that IMHO were set up to loud I think above the THX reference level which is quite loud. You should not have to riding the gain. My processor and both DVD players have a Late Night setting that compresses the peaks for you and brings up the dialog. It should be buried somewhere in your set-up menu of the DVD. Take a look for it when you get a chance.

Some movies are quite extreme. Master and Commander comes to mind. You set-up for the dialog and the sound of waves and water. Then they have the cannon battle where they just pull the stops out and the contrast is thrilling to say the least and quite startling the first time you hear it.

Rob

 

[Bill Hart]

Hello Tim

I have been to several theaters that IMHO were set up to loud I think above the THX reference level which is quite loud. You should not have to riding the gain. My processor and both DVD players have a Late Night setting that compresses the peaks for you and brings up the dialog. It should be buried somewhere in your set-up menu of the DVD. Take a look for it when you get a chance.

Some movies are quite extreme. Master and Commander comes to mind. You set-up for the dialog and the sound of waves and water. Then they have the cannon battle where they just pull the stops out and the contrast is thrilling to say the least and quite startling the first time you hear it.

Rob

That soundtrack is well recorded, and the movie overall is well done.