The Much Coveted Jump Factor - Friend or Foe

[stehno]

On the other hand, for men like yourself who are seemingly forbidden from listening at reasonable volume levels, I’d like to suggest you pursue an active gain stage pre-amp as a minimum requirement. This should provide you at least some of the robust dynamics and a sense of liveliness at lower listening volumes guys like you might otherwise be missing. Just so long as you're aware this boost has nothing to do with achieving a sense of realsim but it should at least keep you from falling asleep.

Umm, I have an active preamp...not sure what made you think I don't. It does help with dynamics but ignores the elephant in the room...the speakers. With that covered, liveliness and robust dynamics are there in spades even at moderate volumes. Maybe you should just turn your hearing aids up a bit and then you won't need to listen so loud all the time...

Oh, I already assumed you had an active preamp. I was only suggesting that for you at your low listening volume levels a preamp should be a minimum requirement.

So of course I'm not surprised that as such you're experiencing liveliness and robust dynamics - at far less than live performance volume levels. That was my suggestion and prediction.

Just remember that this liveliness and robustness at low volume levels is not natural. Hence, those few times you're allowed to listen at more reasonably realistic volume levels, it stands to reason that the liveliness and robustness you're hearing at higher volume levels also cannot be natural.

Good job.

 

[stehno]

Your points on elements within a system that work strongly to achieve life like dynamics really isn’t particularly on point nor reflective of perhaps more typical experience.

• Extreme forms of vibration mgmt.- (these can help in some applications in terms of dynamics in my experience but vibration management doesn’t always buy dynamics... more so under power supplies but under other components resolution can more often be the primary gain)
• Extreme forms of electrical mgmt. (some ‘extreme’ forms of power management actually do quite the opposite if they are worked too heavily into noise suppression and can often then bury dynamics... Shunyata is an example of one power conditioning and cable system that clearly does work towards exploiting dynamics)
• Speaker placement (full-range) (speaker placement contributing to dynamics... once again not really the principle outcome from dialling speakers in which is more often about coherence, soundstage and balance.
• Unamplified gain stage i.e. a passive pre. (Wow, passive line stages are often incredibly poor in this area... often dynamics can be their archilles heel and most people comment rather that it is resolution and low noise that makes them go for a passive and instead having active pre stages has a lot to do with gain structure and dynamics IME)
• Robust amplification. (Too broad a definition I’d suggest... a poorly designed amp no matter how robust could just as easily be flat, compressed and unlistenable as it could be dynamic.
• Dedicated lines for high-current-drawing amps already flirting with a circuit’s amperage limitation. (This is actually often helpful in terms of realising dynamics)
• Listening volume levels that approach live performance volume levels. (This is such a misdirect... I agree with Brad, if your system has to be thrashed to sound interesting and just isn’t performing satisfyingly at lower volume levels there are probably system issues that could clearly relate to it missing out on dynamics)

You are correct. My list is not reflective of the more typical experience and most likely far from it. Hence, I would think one might be a bit more circumspect when critiquing it since they should be less familiar with it. But I'll address your points individually. And for sake of argument let's assume that the dynamics as well as a tremendous amount of music info is embedded in a given recording.

Extreme forms of vibration mgmt.
You comment as though you ignored the Extreme attribute giving indication you don't comprehend what I'm speaking of. But it's a form of vibration mgmt that literally will triple or even quadruple a component's level of musicality. For example. In June of 2017, I reinstalled 3 little passive line into my rack using even a far more extreme method than the previous extreme method. Though it took quite a long time, the end result was more than triple (I'm guessing) the line conditioners' original sonic benefits. This extreme vibration mgmt method does likewise with components. There's also the speaker cables (SC's).

Extreme forms of electrical mgmt.
This encompasses a number of things including and especially superior line conditioners that actually work. IOW, they actually cleanse, purify, filter, and/or condition the noisy AC coming in from the street. I can't speak for the line conditioners you're familiar with but the Foundation Research and Jena Labs line conditioners I've used since 2001 always improve performance including dynamics. Then there's the line conditioners' installation method I mentioned in the vib mgmt section. There's audio-grade fuses, AC plugs and outlets and IEC connectors and inlets and even the Romex. There's cryo-treating via the superior full-immersion method of all those electrical items mentioned above including IC's and SC's and PC's. BTW, exploiting is not the word I would choose.

Speaker Placement
There is no substitution for dialing in the speakers into a given room. I'm pretty confident that for every full-range speaker / room combination there is either THE optimal or at least several optimal locations that when achieved can generate the most well-defined, deeper, tighter and more musical bass. For you to comment as you did, leads me to believe you've yet to encounter it. In 2 previous rooms / homes, I did encounter it and like I said, there is no substitution for it and is a phenomenal contributor to dynamics. In my current room I have located a more optimal location but not THE optimal location. And it ain't easy. One room took me over 9 months to locate. My current speakers are 240 lbs. each so maybe one day....

Unamplified gain stage (passive pre)
You are correct here and though it seems like a step backwards, it's very much a requirement for realistic dynamics not in your face or 5 ft in front of you but up on the soundstage with the rest of the music. A passive pre makes this happen. Moreover, a superior passive pre will present a cleaner signal since the signal is no longer being amplified here.

Robust amplification
I understand what you're saying and I agree. That's why I tried to stay very generic with this term lest anybody try to take me down their amplifier rabbit hole. But the flip side to the unamplified gain stage above is a high-powered amp on this end. This is what provides the dynamics way behind the speakers and up on the soundstage (where they belong) that otherwise are missing when going the passive pre route. In my case, my current amps are rated more than 3 x's the WPC of my previous 180wpc BMC C2 amp. Most of us have either tried a passive pre or know those that have and the lack of dynamics but cleaner sound presentation seems to always be the take away. I've tried it twice before years ago and swore I'd never go passive pre. This time I tried it again but with more than 3 x's the wpc and it made all the difference in the world with a good reasonable distance between my ears firmly planted in the audience and ALL the music including dynamics at a distance upon the soundstage. Now that's realistic.

Dedicated lines for high-current drawing amps flirting with the circuit's amp limitation
Yes, you are correct. In my own experience, years ago I had a 300wpc@8ohm 20amp amplifier on it's own circuit/line but was shared with a pre-amp that consumed 23 watts and about 2 amps. Once I installed the pre-amp on its own circuit/line instantly the dynamics came alive for every music piece I played. That pre-amp apparently was drawing just enough juice to restrict current to the amplifier for perhaps every dynamic/complex passage.

Listening volume levels
You and Brad are welcome to think what you want. But I pursue realism and there's nothing realistic about listening volumes much lower than live performance levels while striving to achieve the benefits of the live performance. I could turn the volume down your guys' levels but then I'd be, well, like you guys. Driving that Top Fuel Dragster down the quarter-mile at half-throttle but expecting full-throttle elapsed times and speeds. That just seems silly to me. About 9 years ago, I had a reviewer visit who listens to everything at about 61 db and it took everything in me not to throw him out into the street. What a quack.

FWIW, I never listen to music passively while reading my favorite novel or just to pass time even though many do. Everything I do in this hobby is related to performance and I think that is best reflected by the roughly 65% of my entire playback system's retail costs being dedicated entirely to my playback system's foundation i.e. the extreme forms of electrical and mechanical energy mgmt sectors. I consider these 2 sectors the foundation of every last playback system is built on whether they realize it or not and whether it be a rock or quicksand. And IME, a superior foundation makes all the difference in the world. Every time I sit in my listening chair it's more of an evaluation period but I like to think with great enjoyment too.

 

[the sound of Tao]

You are correct. My list is not reflective of the more typical experience and most likely far from it. Hence, I would think one might be a bit more circumspect when critiquing it since they should be less familiar with it. But I'll address your points individually. And for sake of argument let's assume that the dynamics as well as a tremendous amount of music info is embedded in a given recording.

Extreme forms of vibration mgmt.
You comment as though you ignored the Extreme attribute giving indication you don't comprehend what I'm speaking of. But it's a form of vibration mgmt that literally will triple or even quadruple a component's level of musicality. For example. In June of 2017, I reinstalled 3 little passive line into my rack using even a far more extreme method than the previous extreme method. Though it took quite a long time, the end result was more than triple (I'm guessing) the line conditioners' original sonic benefits. This extreme vibration mgmt method does likewise with components. There's also the speaker cables (SC's).

Extreme forms of electrical mgmt.
This encompasses a number of things including and especially superior line conditioners that actually work. IOW, they actually cleanse, purify, filter, and/or condition the noisy AC coming in from the street. I can't speak for the line conditioners you're familiar with but the Foundation Research and Jena Labs line conditioners I've used since 2001 always improve performance including dynamics. Then there's the line conditioners' installation method I mentioned in the vib mgmt section. There's audio-grade fuses, AC plugs and outlets and IEC connectors and inlets and even the Romex. There's cryo-treating via the superior full-immersion method of all those electrical items mentioned above including IC's and SC's and PC's. BTW, exploiting is not the word I would choose.

Speaker Placement
There is no substitution for dialing in the speakers into a given room. I'm pretty confident that for every full-range speaker / room combination there is either THE optimal or at least several optimal locations that when achieved can generate the most well-defined, deeper, tighter and more musical bass. For you to comment as you did, leads me to believe you've yet to encounter it. In 2 previous rooms / homes, I did encounter it and like I said, there is no substitution for it and is a phenomenal contributor to dynamics. In my current room I have located a more optimal location but not THE optimal location. And it ain't easy. One room took me over 9 months to locate. My current speakers are 240 lbs. each so maybe one day....

Unamplified gain stage (passive pre)
You are correct here and though it seems like a step backwards, it's very much a requirement for realistic dynamics not in your face or 5 ft in front of you but up on the soundstage with the rest of the music. A passive pre makes this happen. Moreover, a superior passive pre will present a cleaner signal since the signal is no longer being amplified here.

Robust amplification
I understand what you're saying and I agree. That's why I tried to stay very generic with this term lest anybody try to take me down their amplifier rabbit hole. But the flip side to the unamplified gain stage above is a high-powered amp on this end. This is what provides the dynamics way behind the speakers and up on the soundstage (where they belong) that otherwise are missing when going the passive pre route. In my case, my current amps are rated more than 3 x's the WPC of my previous 180wpc BMC C2 amp. Most of us have either tried a passive pre or know those that have and the lack of dynamics but cleaner sound presentation seems to always be the take away. I've tried it twice before years ago and swore I'd never go passive pre. This time I tried it again but with more than 3 x's the wpc and it made all the difference in the world with a good reasonable distance between my ears firmly planted in the audience and ALL the music including dynamics at a distance upon the soundstage. Now that's realistic.

Dedicated lines for high-current drawing amps flirting with the circuit's amp limitation
Yes, you are correct. In my own experience, years ago I had a 300wpc@8ohm 20amp amplifier on it's own circuit/line but was shared with a pre-amp that consumed 23 watts and about 2 amps. Once I installed the pre-amp on its own circuit/line instantly the dynamics came alive for every music piece I played. That pre-amp apparently was drawing just enough juice to restrict current to the amplifier for perhaps every dynamic/complex passage.

Listening volume levels
You and Brad are welcome to think what you want. But I pursue realism and there's nothing realistic about listening volumes much lower than live performance levels while striving to achieve the benefits of the live performance. I could turn the volume down your guys' levels but then I'd be, well, like you guys. Driving that Top Fuel Dragster down the quarter-mile at half-throttle but expecting full-throttle elapsed times and speeds. That just seems silly to me. About 9 years ago, I had a reviewer visit who listens to everything at about 61 db and it took everything in me not to throw him out into the street. What a quack.

FWIW, I never listen to music passively while reading my favorite novel or just to pass time even though many do. Everything I do in this hobby is related to performance and I think that is best reflected by the roughly 65% of my entire playback system's retail costs being dedicated entirely to my playback system's foundation i.e. the extreme forms of electrical and mechanical energy mgmt sectors. I consider these 2 sectors the foundation of every last playback system is built on whether they realize it or not and whether it be a rock or quicksand. And IME, a superior foundation makes all the difference in the world. Every time I sit in my listening chair it's more of an evaluation period but I like to think with great enjoyment too.

Stehno, nothing is that earth shatteringly important in this that I can’t happily just agree to disagree... but just because I often find myself disagreeing with what you think doesn’t at all mean that I don’t comprehend what you are saying... or that I have less experience in these things than you... or any less validity in what I do in regards to this pursuit. It isn’t of great concern to me that I don’t agree with you on something as I don’t see this as a competition. I just find that I learn things from others and from you not so much. I am happy for you to believe what you believe, but I just don’t buy into it myself. It is in truth all fine and there are simply more important truths to be had than these.

 

[stehno]

Stehno, nothing is that earth shatteringly important in this that I can’t happily just agree to disagree... but just because I often find myself disagreeing with what you think doesn’t at all mean that I don’t comprehend what you are saying... or that I have less experience in these things than you... or any less validity in what I do in regards to this pursuit. It isn’t of great concern to me that I don’t agree with you on something as I don’t see this as a competition. I just find that I learn things from others and from you not so much. I am happy for you to believe what you believe, but I just don’t buy into it myself. It is in truth all fine and there are simply more important truths to be had than these.

Hmmmm. I’m pretty sure I wasn’t seeking your agreement.

As for you saying “but just because I often find myself disagreeing with what you think doesn’t at all mean that I don’t comprehend what you are saying... or that I have less experience in these things than you.”

Actually, for some of the things I stated that exactly means you don’t comprehend and/or you have less experience. Unless per chance you’re one of those self-delusional types who claim to have seen it all, done it all, and there ain’t nothing new under the sun kinda’ guys. Otherwise, you most likely would agree because some of the things I do nobody else has done, not even close. But again, I wasn’t seeking your agreement.

I was simply responding to morricab’s question. In so doing, I realize I’m sharing a different way that in some ways is radically different than the status quo.

Anyway, based on some of the unique things I do, it would be silly of me to think anybody here would agree with me on anything regarding performance in an audio forum.

Then again, there’s always the chance that someday somebody somewhere there will exist one who is tired of the status quo. But now we both know it’s not you.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Stehno, like many things you claim to know you know nothing of my experiences but do take your delight in making your pointy assumptions... and as usual you are mostly all assumption, pointless long winded metaphors, careless abstractions lacking specifics, clarity or genuine signal, mostly just noise punctuated by the unfortunate occasional smug smiley face retort. I was being polite suggesting I was happy to agree to disagree. This is because there is invariably little logic or substance and little evidence of any real experience in your posts. Hollow vessels as they say make the most noise. Please follow through again with another long and unnecessarily personal response where you are the only one who knows ‘the real truth’.

 

[morricab]

Oh, I already assumed you had an active preamp. I was only suggesting that for you at your low listening volume levels a preamp should be a minimum requirement.

So of course I'm not surprised that as such you're experiencing liveliness and robust dynamics - at far less than live performance volume levels. That was my suggestion and prediction.

Just remember that this liveliness and robustness at low volume levels is not natural. Hence, those few times you're allowed to listen at more reasonably realistic volume levels, it stands to reason that the liveliness and robustness you're hearing at higher volume levels also cannot be natural.

Good job.

No, you didn't assume that. You stated I should get one...that is something quite different.

I find it sad that you cannot get liveliness and robust dynamics at far less than levels...seems all your "management" was not all that helpful as you still clearly have a masking issue (noise or distortion) that means your system only approximates live when you are really blasting. If I had to guess, unless you are actually listening to live rock concerts at home that you are often listening at louder than live levels...I think a lot of people here do and you sound like one of them.

Umm, perhaps you are aware of such a thing as chamber music? Yes? No? This is music typcially with between 1 and 4 acoustic instruments and the "live" level is typically far below levels you claim to listen. My system can quite realistically reproduce, say a stringed instrument at live levels without that being overly loud. I have a lot of live small ensemble experience

I fail to see also, how you can claim getting good dynamics and lively sound at lower than live levels is unnatural...have you actually listened to a live performance at "lower than live" levels to see if what is reproduced at that level still sounds natural compared to the reduced live level?? No?

Next time I go to the Tonhalle and listen to an orchestra, I will ask them to play it all again 20db quieter and I can report back to you...HA!

Or, and this is possible, one can extrapolate from what one hears live when levels are not so loud (like quiet passages in a classical piece) or slow part of a jazz performance (assuming it is not heavily amplified) and tell if one is getting a similar degree of dynamics and resolution and "liveness" as one hears/feels live. Maybe you only hear amplified concerts?

 

[morricab]

You are correct. My list is not reflective of the more typical experience and most likely far from it. Hence, I would think one might be a bit more circumspect when critiquing it since they should be less familiar with it. But I'll address your points individually. And for sake of argument let's assume that the dynamics as well as a tremendous amount of music info is embedded in a given recording.

Extreme forms of vibration mgmt.
You comment as though you ignored the Extreme attribute giving indication you don't comprehend what I'm speaking of. But it's a form of vibration mgmt that literally will triple or even quadruple a component's level of musicality. For example. In June of 2017, I reinstalled 3 little passive line into my rack using even a far more extreme method than the previous extreme method. Though it took quite a long time, the end result was more than triple (I'm guessing) the line conditioners' original sonic benefits. This extreme vibration mgmt method does likewise with components. There's also the speaker cables (SC's).

Extreme forms of electrical mgmt.
This encompasses a number of things including and especially superior line conditioners that actually work. IOW, they actually cleanse, purify, filter, and/or condition the noisy AC coming in from the street. I can't speak for the line conditioners you're familiar with but the Foundation Research and Jena Labs line conditioners I've used since 2001 always improve performance including dynamics. Then there's the line conditioners' installation method I mentioned in the vib mgmt section. There's audio-grade fuses, AC plugs and outlets and IEC connectors and inlets and even the Romex. There's cryo-treating via the superior full-immersion method of all those electrical items mentioned above including IC's and SC's and PC's. BTW, exploiting is not the word I would choose.

Speaker Placement
There is no substitution for dialing in the speakers into a given room. I'm pretty confident that for every full-range speaker / room combination there is either THE optimal or at least several optimal locations that when achieved can generate the most well-defined, deeper, tighter and more musical bass. For you to comment as you did, leads me to believe you've yet to encounter it. In 2 previous rooms / homes, I did encounter it and like I said, there is no substitution for it and is a phenomenal contributor to dynamics. In my current room I have located a more optimal location but not THE optimal location. And it ain't easy. One room took me over 9 months to locate. My current speakers are 240 lbs. each so maybe one day....

Unamplified gain stage (passive pre)
You are correct here and though it seems like a step backwards, it's very much a requirement for realistic dynamics not in your face or 5 ft in front of you but up on the soundstage with the rest of the music. A passive pre makes this happen. Moreover, a superior passive pre will present a cleaner signal since the signal is no longer being amplified here.

Robust amplification
I understand what you're saying and I agree. That's why I tried to stay very generic with this term lest anybody try to take me down their amplifier rabbit hole. But the flip side to the unamplified gain stage above is a high-powered amp on this end. This is what provides the dynamics way behind the speakers and up on the soundstage (where they belong) that otherwise are missing when going the passive pre route. In my case, my current amps are rated more than 3 x's the WPC of my previous 180wpc BMC C2 amp. Most of us have either tried a passive pre or know those that have and the lack of dynamics but cleaner sound presentation seems to always be the take away. I've tried it twice before years ago and swore I'd never go passive pre. This time I tried it again but with more than 3 x's the wpc and it made all the difference in the world with a good reasonable distance between my ears firmly planted in the audience and ALL the music including dynamics at a distance upon the soundstage. Now that's realistic.

Dedicated lines for high-current drawing amps flirting with the circuit's amp limitation
Yes, you are correct. In my own experience, years ago I had a 300wpc@8ohm 20amp amplifier on it's own circuit/line but was shared with a pre-amp that consumed 23 watts and about 2 amps. Once I installed the pre-amp on its own circuit/line instantly the dynamics came alive for every music piece I played. That pre-amp apparently was drawing just enough juice to restrict current to the amplifier for perhaps every dynamic/complex passage.

Listening volume levels
You and Brad are welcome to think what you want. But I pursue realism and there's nothing realistic about listening volumes much lower than live performance levels while striving to achieve the benefits of the live performance. I could turn the volume down your guys' levels but then I'd be, well, like you guys. Driving that Top Fuel Dragster down the quarter-mile at half-throttle but expecting full-throttle elapsed times and speeds. That just seems silly to me. About 9 years ago, I had a reviewer visit who listens to everything at about 61 db and it took everything in me not to throw him out into the street. What a quack.

FWIW, I never listen to music passively while reading my favorite novel or just to pass time even though many do. Everything I do in this hobby is related to performance and I think that is best reflected by the roughly 65% of my entire playback system's retail costs being dedicated entirely to my playback system's foundation i.e. the extreme forms of electrical and mechanical energy mgmt sectors. I consider these 2 sectors the foundation of every last playback system is built on whether they realize it or not and whether it be a rock or quicksand. And IME, a superior foundation makes all the difference in the world. Every time I sit in my listening chair it's more of an evaluation period but I like to think with great enjoyment too.

I don't disagree that vibration and power management can yield big benefits in dynamics, liveness and tone. That said, swap the low sensitivity speaker for a high senstivity one (and ditch the repressive muscle amp) and watch the liveness of dynamics take another leap...all those benefits you are claiming above will be even further accenuated towards the true dynamic envelope...you can thank me after you have tried it.

Your poor assumption is that I never listen at live levels and therfore have no idea what they are like...nevermind the fact that I frequent live music and had a partner for several years that was a top flight violinist (so many orchestral and chamber concerts). I said my domestic situation means I don't often get to listen at live levels. My system scales quite nicely between "night" listening levels and realistic when I am home alone. I can hear clearly that it tracks well down to more moderate levels, preserving (yes preserving) that precsious signal and keeping the relationships relatively the same.

It is clear that you either have hearing issues or your system doesn't do this downward scaling well. I can trace this from the live level down to my accepted lower levels...yours seems to lose too much for you to accept this. Even if I could listen at truly live levels all the time I doubt I would want to.

Everything you stated above, except the weird logic on the passive preamp is reasonable and you would see even a greater gain, IMO with high sensitivity speakers. The passive/active has more to do with your overall system gain and impedances than power. Did you look at the gain difference between your amps? Input impedance? Those matter more than power. Also, the circuit design, a lot of feedback? none? Local only? And so on...

Sounds to me that you like to smear a lot of lipstick on the pig...

BTW, if you look around this forum you will see that many of us take both vibration management and power management (cables, grounding, regeneration etc. etc.) very seriously as we have heard the benefits in noise floor and therefore dynamic range...you have discovered nothing new there...your secrets out!

 

[Jeffy]

Stehno, I got such a laugh when you talked about that nut listening at low levels. I went to an audiophiles house who wanted to buy a PS audio transport off me. He had Wilson speakers bigger than watt,puppy and listened at very low levels. I could not believe it. I thought what a nut. I listen on average about 75 to maybe 90 db at the most. You simply cannot tell anything at 50 db's. You sure do run into weird people.

 

[thedudeabides]

Stehno, like many things you claim to know you know nothing of my experiences but do take your delight in making your pointy assumptions... and as usual you are mostly all assumption, pointless long winded metaphors, careless abstractions lacking specifics, clarity or genuine signal, mostly just noise punctuated by the unfortunate occasional smug smiley face retort. I was being polite suggesting I was happy to agree to disagree. This is because there is invariably little logic or substance and little evidence of any real experience in your posts. Hollow vessels as they say make the most noise. Please follow through again with another long and unnecessarily personal response where you are the only one who knows ‘the real truth’.

I thought the use of personal attacks was against WBF's acceptable protocol but what do I know.

 

[morricab]

Stehno, I got such a laugh when you talked about that nut listening at low levels. I went to an audiophiles house who wanted to buy a PS audio transport off me. He had Wilson speakers bigger than watt,puppy and listened at very low levels. I could not believe it. I thought what a nut. I listen on average about 75 to maybe 90 db at the most. You simply cannot tell anything at 50 db's. You sure do run into weird people.

I am not talking about 50dbs range. Evenings is more like the lower end of your range and alone time is at the upper end of your range...perhaps slightly higher than that at times.

 

[Jeffy]

Morricab, this was not intended to you. This guy listened to his system at above whisper levels. My goodness if he went to a live symphony he probably would need ear plugs. Chamber music realistic levels are still in the 90's db wise.

 

[stehno]

Stehno, like many things you claim to know you know nothing of my experiences but do take your delight in making your pointy assumptions... and as usual you are mostly all assumption, pointless long winded metaphors, careless abstractions lacking specifics, clarity or genuine signal, mostly just noise punctuated by the unfortunate occasional smug smiley face retort. I was being polite suggesting I was happy to agree to disagree. This is because there is invariably little logic or substance and little evidence of any real experience in your posts. Hollow vessels as they say make the most noise. Please follow through again with another long and unnecessarily personal response where you are the only one who knows ‘the real truth’.

I make no such claims as to know your experience. Except when you imply or claim to have experienced or even have a clue what I’ve experienced when nobody has done at least a few of the things I’ve done.

I understand your being hurt by my comment about your potentially being self-delusional having seen it all and done it all.

I get that. But you probably know as well as anybody, there’s perhaps nothing more absurd than the self-delusional types who pretend to have seen it all and done it all.

Surely, we can agree on that, can’t we?

 

[stehno]

I am not talking about 50dbs range. Evenings is more like the lower end of your range and alone time is at the upper end of your range...perhaps slightly higher than that at times.

Oh, I figured that much. But my point still stands about lowered volume levels. Dynamics and everything else start to slowly dissipate when the volume is lowered. That's a given.

 

[stehno]

I don't disagree that vibration and power management can yield big benefits in dynamics, liveness and tone. That said, swap the low sensitivity speaker for a high senstivity one (and ditch the repressive muscle amp) and watch the liveness of dynamics take another leap...all those benefits you are claiming above will be even further accenuated towards the true dynamic envelope...you can thank me after you have tried it.

Your poor assumption is that I never listen at live levels and therfore have no idea what they are like...nevermind the fact that I frequent live music and had a partner for several years that was a top flight violinist (so many orchestral and chamber concerts). I said my domestic situation means I don't often get to listen at live levels. My system scales quite nicely between "night" listening levels and realistic when I am home alone. I can hear clearly that it tracks well down to more moderate levels, preserving (yes preserving) that precsious signal and keeping the relationships relatively the same.

It is clear that you either have hearing issues or your system doesn't do this downward scaling well. I can trace this from the live level down to my accepted lower levels...yours seems to lose too much for you to accept this. Even if I could listen at truly live levels all the time I doubt I would want to.

Everything you stated above, except the weird logic on the passive preamp is reasonable and you would see even a greater gain, IMO with high sensitivity speakers. The passive/active has more to do with your overall system gain and impedances than power. Did you look at the gain difference between your amps? Input impedance? Those matter more than power. Also, the circuit design, a lot of feedback? none? Local only? And so on...

Sounds to me that you like to smear a lot of lipstick on the pig...

BTW, if you look around this forum you will see that many of us take both vibration management and power management (cables, grounding, regeneration etc. etc.) very seriously as we have heard the benefits in noise floor and therefore dynamic range...you have discovered nothing new there...your secrets out!

I understand your point about efficient speakers but based on my limited experience, I just don't necessarily go along with that. But I can see where you have a point when a lower wpc amplifiers kinda' need to be matched with higher efficiency speakers. In fact, I suspect that's why more efficient speakers came to be so popular.

You also made it clear that on occasion you're able to raise volume levels and I never assumed you had no idea what they are like, etc and I've seen from other posts that you seem to frequent live performances. My point again is only that when volume levels are lowered, it is unreasonable to expect our playback systems to generate anything like live music if we are unwilling to listen at live music volume levels.

As for my hearing or my system suffering? Even if either or both were true, that's not the point. If the jump factor was a legitimate characteristic to covet I'd be concerned if I experienced on my playback system if I were listening at 60 db (just stressing a point here). That's the message I was trying to convey. But it's no secret that many indeed listen routinely at lower listening volumes and yet still demand or strive to achieve live music benefits. And to me that just seems unreasonable.

No, I never look at the gain differences or input impedance or feedback. I used to think they mattered but I don't any more. Most designers have their own unique twist with a given design for a final output and then it's up to me to determine how it sounds. Personally, I think these categories are more overrated rabbit holes some thrive to debate on. But that's me.

As for taking electrical mgmt and vibration mgmt seriously, well seriously is really a rather broad or open term. Just because somebody puts some mechanical conduits under their components or buys an "audio-grade" rack and realizes some benefits does not necessarily constitute one taking vibration mgmt seriously. Honestly, even most manufacturers to this day call their designs isolation products when good portions of their designs and materials clearly fall into the resonant energy transfer camp. If most manufacturers condtradict their own executions and strategies, why should we take them seriously? And how could their consumers be taken seriously even if those products do provide some minor performance gains? But I digress.

 

[stehno]

Stehno, I got such a laugh when you talked about that nut listening at low levels. I went to an audiophiles house who wanted to buy a PS audio transport off me. He had Wilson speakers bigger than watt,puppy and listened at very low levels. I could not believe it. I thought what a nut. I listen on average about 75 to maybe 90 db at the most. You simply cannot tell anything at 50 db's. You sure do run into weird people.

Some people are just unbelievable. But then again, the guy I'm talking about was a reviewer for 6 moons. When I gave him the remote and we started listening, I did ask if he was serious. Yup, he took great pride in his nonsense. It was an absolutely grueling experience. I double-checked after he left. I kid you not, the volume levels were literally 2 notches over zero. Out of maybe 50 or 60 notches to full volume. And I regret not throwing him out into the street.

 

[stehno]

...

Sounds to me that you like to smear a lot of lipstick on the pig...

...

Interesting that you would call my system a pig having little knowledge of it and what little you do know is based on my words and twisting my words and seemingly mixed or misinterpreted with your own conjecture combined with folklore you’ve committed yourself to.

It's so easy to talk the talk in audio forums, don't you think? Here’s a couple of links to short clips of in-room listening I recently took with my iPhone which certainly has its own limitations. Nevertheless, with just a tad of imagination on the listener’s part I think one with an understanding of live music and the typical playback music’s inherent limitations would be hard-pressed to call my system a pig. But then again, I’ve been wrong before.

Anyway, don't forget to keep your eye out for the jump factor.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_RZfT8uxp1IpU93riX_vlfpTELWNYttJ/view

https://drive.google.com/open?id=18ObgkxaEBdfuW2uRyQEIydI1B6AKm_k0

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16enxNw38JSRDDL8JLqbobkTiKXUiUUQd/view

 

[morricab]

Oh, I figured that much. But my point still stands about lowered volume levels. Dynamics and everything else start to slowly dissipate when the volume is lowered. That's a given.

No, your point doesn't still stand. You were claiming that you can only have good dynamics at realistic live levels. I know for a fact this is not true and smacks of lack of experience.

 

[stehno]

No, your point doesn't still stand. You were claiming that you can only have good dynamics at realistic live levels. I know for a fact this is not true and smacks of lack of experience.

No. It is true and it smacks of being reasonable. Live music volume levels vary and range anywhere from say 45 db to 125db. But you already knew that. What I'm saying is whatever the live music volume level is where the real dynamics live. You wanna' cut down that volume level by 25db or whatever and hear remnants of the dynamics? That's fine. Yes, it can be done. But it's not realistic.

But then, I already knew that.

 

[morricab]

I understand your point about efficient speakers but based on my limited experience, I just don't necessarily go along with that. But I can see where you have a point when a lower wpc amplifiers kinda' need to be matched with higher efficiency speakers. In fact, I suspect that's why more efficient speakers came to be so popular.

You also made it clear that on occasion you're able to raise volume levels and I never assumed you had no idea what they are like, etc and I've seen from other posts that you seem to frequent live performances. My point again is only that when volume levels are lowered, it is unreasonable to expect our playback systems to generate anything like live music if we are unwilling to listen at live music volume levels.

As for my hearing or my system suffering? Even if either or both were true, that's not the point. If the jump factor was a legitimate characteristic to covet I'd be concerned if I experienced on my playback system if I were listening at 60 db (just stressing a point here). That's the message I was trying to convey. But it's no secret that many indeed listen routinely at lower listening volumes and yet still demand or strive to achieve live music benefits. And to me that just seems unreasonable.

No, I never look at the gain differences or input impedance or feedback. I used to think they mattered but I don't any more. Most designers have their own unique twist with a given design for a final output and then it's up to me to determine how it sounds. Personally, I think these categories are more overrated rabbit holes some thrive to debate on. But that's me.

As for taking electrical mgmt and vibration mgmt seriously, well seriously is really a rather broad or open term. Just because somebody puts some mechanical conduits under their components or buys an "audio-grade" rack and realizes some benefits does not necessarily constitute one taking vibration mgmt seriously. Honestly, even most manufacturers to this day call their designs isolation products when good portions of their designs and materials clearly fall into the resonant energy transfer camp. If most manufacturers condtradict their own executions and strategies, why should we take them seriously? And how could their consumers be taken seriously even if those products do provide some minor performance gains? But I digress.

The key phrase here is "my limited experience"...enough said. There is nothing to go along with. Some people don't like high senstivity speakers because in general, they are not as tonally neutral (i.e. they have colorations) as the drivers tend to have more ragged frequency responses. A lot of home audio designers have flat FR as a high priority and so become dismissive of high sensitivity drivers as they don't fit the narrative. Get some experience and then let's have a meaningful conversation.

Honestly, if you go to live AMPLIFIED concerts then you are already half-way into the boat for high sensitivity speakers (if not low powered amps). ALL the live sound reinforcement gear is high sensitivity and massively overbuilt to minimize thermal compression issues. They do it for a different reason, namely projecting sound long distances without needing megawatts of power. FR is not that critical becuase, afterall, it is Live sound and not playback...usually. Move that to a home environment and the power requirement goes WAY down, allowing the use of much higher quality amps because quantity is not required. It also means the drivers are barely working at 90-100db (they were designed to run all day at 120-130 db in the better cases) and thermal compression is not really on the radar. A designer has to work with the crossover to smooth them out a bit, which might rob some of the liveness if not careful, but they will scale dynamics more faithfully. If you don't know what I mean by this then it is time for you to go out and get "experienced" once again.

"You also made it clear that on occasion you're able to raise volume levels and I never assumed you had no idea what they are like, etc and I've seen from other posts that you seem to frequent live performances. My point again is only that when volume levels are lowered, it is unreasonable to expect our playback systems to generate anything like live music if we are unwilling to listen at live music volume levels."

Yes, I do and I have. I don't think it is unreasonable nor is it impossible...particularly for smaller ensembles.

Gain and impedance totally affects the suitability of whether or not you can use a passive even remotely successfully. Feedback affects distortion patterns and since you were claiming that this exaggerated detail was your version of "jump factor" i would say it is high relevant because it is likely that it was high order distortion and noise that was the culprit...Highly relevant I would say...you just don't make the connection so it doesn't seem important to you... Nothing overrated about the way amp design affects sound...if anything it is underrated.

Without knowing exactly what you have done to take vibration and electrical issues into consideration, I have no way to judge if what you have done is extreme or simply par for the course here on WBF.

I am a scientist so I look at all claims by all manufacturers with a critical eye. I know what the (current) laws of physics and chemistry say can and can't be done and know that most advertising is false, misleading or just full of hyperbole.

 

[morricab]

Some people are just unbelievable. But then again, the guy I'm talking about was a reviewer for 6 moons. When I gave him the remote and we started listening, I did ask if he was serious. Yup, he took great pride in his nonsense. It was an absolutely grueling experience. I double-checked after he left. I kid you not, the volume levels were literally 2 notches over zero. Out of maybe 50 or 60 notches to full volume. And I regret not throwing him out into the street.

Since you seem to have no concept of gain , it means nothing to us that you were 2 notches above zero. I have had preamps and amps with so much gain that a couple notches was really loud and others where even full open on the throttle was clearly not clipping the amp. Your anecdote, while instructive to see your intolerance, tells us nothing regarding the actual conditions of the demo.