The new audiophile vinyl series The Original Source from Deutsche Grammophon (AAA)

[Kjetil]

Has your rig been having any issues tracking this or the Brahms Gilels at all?
Best wishes,
Don

No, it’s a Thorens.
Seriously: No, tracking is fine. AT33PTG/II in a Korf HS-A02 headshell on a Bokrand AS-230 arm on a TD 125 Mk. II.

Great piece on TA. I love the sidetracks and the Brendel Haydn.

 

[No Regrets]

Hello Don, so far no issues with tracking!

But I didn't had the time for the Smetana so far. The three LPs that I could listen to are first class, very very quiet vinyl and fantastic sound.

There is a review on Tracking Angle from Mark Ward:

More Buried Treasure Emerges in the Latest Batch of Deutsche Grammophon "Original Source" Vinyl Reissues - PART 1

Emil Berliner Studios Breathe New Sonic Life into DG's Legendary Back Catalogue via these Deluxe AAA Reissues

trackingangle.com

Hi Michael,

Thank you for your reply, That's great to hear that you haven't had any issues with the tracking!
I also appreciate the link that you have shared. It was a nice read!

Best wishes,
Don

 

[DetroitVinylRob]

Wish I had spotted this thread in February… geez. So much vinyl, so little time! Just playing catch up here and overjoyed to see these DGG offerings. I have either ordered directly or located from secondary suppliers all but a copy of the Claudio Abbado Stravinsky. Hopefully one will bubble up from somewhere. Fingers crossed

 

[oldvinyl]

There is a review on Tracking Angle from Mark Ward:

More Buried Treasure Emerges in the Latest Batch of Deutsche Grammophon "Original Source" Vinyl Reissues - PART 1

Emil Berliner Studios Breathe New Sonic Life into DG's Legendary Back Catalogue via these Deluxe AAA Reissues

trackingangle.com

Thanks for the link. Great article on Berlioz and the recording.

 

[PeterKB]

Hi,

Has anyone compared these to original pressings and what are your thoughts? Thanks

 

[JimmyJet]

I checked original Analog Planet article and I must say that both the article and the graph (below) are incorrect.
View attachment 116545

According to Acoustical Systems, UNI-DIN geometry is based on DIN standard for outer and inner groove radiuses, 146.3mm and 57.5mm respectively. But above graph made by Wally Malewicz and shared by M. Fremer is based on IEC standard which is 146.3mm and 60.325mm. When you look at the inner null points you can see Lofgren A is 66.0mm Lofgren B is 70.3mm and UNI-DIN is 63.3mm. That graph is clearly using IEC. Between IEC and DIN standards only the inner groove radius changes and it may not seem important but it also changes inner null points. Which is very important. That’s why the graph is wrong. It should be drawn using DIN standard because the point of UNI-DIN geometry is advocating DIN standard for inner and outer groove radiuses. A fair comparison requires a new graph in DIN standard. Here is how it should be:
View attachment 116546

• 12” tonearm UNI-DIN effective length: 300mm, overhang: 12mm, offset: 16.95° (approximately).
• Other geometries are automatically drawn for 300mm effective length

View attachment 116547

The whole article on Analog Planet is based on a graph drawn in IEC standard to compare a geometry which is based on DIN standard. Also the conclusions are wrong because inner null points are different.

IMHO with the new, correct graph UNI-DIN geometry makes more sense by keeping distortion very low around inner grooves where distortion increases radically. if you have a record collection cut close to label UNI-DIN is much better than Lofgren B.

I checked original Analog Planet article and I must say that both the article and the graph (below) are incorrect.
View attachment 116545

According to Acoustical Systems, UNI-DIN geometry is based on DIN standard for outer and inner groove radiuses, 146.3mm and 57.5mm respectively. But above graph made by Wally Malewicz and shared by M. Fremer is based on IEC standard which is 146.3mm and 60.325mm. When you look at the inner null points you can see Lofgren A is 66.0mm Lofgren B is 70.3mm and UNI-DIN is 63.3mm. That graph is clearly using IEC. Between IEC and DIN standards only the inner groove radius changes and it may not seem important but it also changes inner null points. Which is very important. That’s why the graph is wrong. It should be drawn using DIN standard because the point of UNI-DIN geometry is advocating DIN standard for inner and outer groove radiuses. A fair comparison requires a new graph in DIN standard. Here is how it should be:
View attachment 116546

• 12” tonearm UNI-DIN effective length: 300mm, overhang: 12mm, offset: 16.95° (approximately).
• Other geometries are automatically drawn for 300mm effective length

View attachment 116547

The whole article on Analog Planet is based on a graph drawn in IEC standard to compare a geometry which is based on DIN standard. Also the conclusions are wrong because inner null points are different.

IMHO with the new, correct graph UNI-DIN geometry makes more sense by keeping distortion very low around inner grooves where distortion increases radically. if you have a record collection cut close to label UNI-DIN is much better than Lofgren B.

@mtemur Thank you for this - now it makes sense! I thought I was loosing my mind. That original WAM graph is a mess and a waste of everyone‘s time because of the mixed standards - it’s comparing apples to oranges (and of course MF wouldn’t have taken the time to analyze it and just passed it around like it’s scientific evidence and drew false conclusions - and of course he missed the whole premise behind UNI-DIN as spelled so eloquently in Brakemeier’s published white paper). It’s great to have this “all DIN“ graph and chart! -cheers!

 

[Kjetil]

Hi,

Has anyone compared these to original pressings and what are your thoughts? Thanks

The Abbado Boston Ravel Debussy to a 1970 Hannover pressing (The gold box).
The Smetana Boston Kubelik to a DG Resonance (low price reissue).

There is no contest. No contest at all. TOS is as good as vinyl can be. Mind you, you’ll need at least a Shibata on a cartridge that can track properly. Sidney cuts hot and close to the label if needed.

 

[PeterKB]

The Abbado Boston Ravel Debussy to a 1970 Hannover pressing (The gold box).
The Smetana Boston Kubelik to a DG Resonance (low price reissue).

There is no contest. No contest at all. TOS is as good as vinyl can be. Mind you, you’ll need at least a Shibata on a cartridge that can track properly. Sidney cuts hot and close to the label if needed.

Thanks, thats what I was looking for!

 

[UEM]

I've only got "The Moldau" from The Smetana Boston Kubelik recording on a "mix-Version" as a reference. Hence the quality may not be as good , as the complete DGG Original from 1972 version might habe been.

Anyway: I can only repeat Kjetil's words.
The new re-mastered version ("TOS") has better quality features on all aspects, which a Vinyl-Lover could wish to have.
Very quite surface, I felt more dynamics and better musical separation of all instruments.
The only point I'm kind of unsure about is the additional space / echo added, reportedly via a physical (?) echo-chamber. Mind you it's not a problem - but could it be pushed a tiny bit too far ?
I could detect no problem with tracking (Ortofon SPU Century)

Regards
Urs
BTW: If anyone would like to get rid off the TOS Verdi Requiem with Karajan - I would happily be a taker...
I do have an original DGG album from 1972 - and the TOS version is sold out

 

[spiritofmusic]

My box of recent four have arrived. Guess what I'm doing in next couple of days?

 

[MadFloyd]

Mine came too. That said, I still haven't listened to anything other than the first batch. The Mahler was a big disappointment in terms of sonics and I guess I lost some enthusiasm. I'll get to them eventually I suppose.

 

[oldvinyl]

The only point I'm kind of unsure about is the additional space / echo added, reportedly via a physical (?) echo-chamber. Mind you it's not a problem - but could it be pushed a tiny bit too far ?

Do you happen to know where this was reported?

Everything from DG web site and interviews state that the original 4 channel tapes were used to remaster the new pressings. Those original 4 channels were for quadrophonic playback, which did not catch on all that widely. The rear channels capture more ambience of the recording venue. The ambience is really apparent with the new pressings - in a good way (to my ears).

The new mix and the new pressing are revealing what was originally recorded - but not captured on original issues of the LPs.


Quote from article on Tracking Angle:
" Why do the original DG 70s vinyl pressings sound so inferior? One reason has to do with how the actual lacquers were cut back in the day. To head off potential problems, the DG engineers simplified and streamlined: they cut the actual grooves more narrowly, with less space available to accommodate a wider frequency response and stereo spread, which would, for example, convey more ambient sonic information. For the “Original Source” series, EBS widened the grooves, thereby allowing more sonic information to be cut into the record. They collaborated closely with Optimal in heading off any potential pressing problems caused by taking this approach.

The result is these new records sound enormous, with amazingly life-like dynamics and sonorities, conveying a 3-dimensional sense of the space in which the recordings were made. There is an ease to the presentation that I have rarely heard on a record before —especially when it comes to large-scale orchestral music."

The original 4 channel tapes were used for a new mix:
"Second, we needed to mix the front and rear channels down to stereo in real time. A completely new, custom-built mixing desk was required for this project. Emil Berliner Studios have designed a passive mixer, which renders the highest quality without introducing any additional noise to the signal."

 

[tima]

Hi,

Has anyone compared these to original pressings and what are your thoughts? Thanks

This is taken partly from a post I made on SHF in response to a similar question. (Maybe that was you over there PeterKB?)

Here are performances of the original 1975 recording and the 2023 Original Source remaster of Mahler's 5th Symphony 4th movement, Adagietto, recorded in my room as videos with my phone. The front album covers are nearly identical. You will need to adjust volume to equalize with yr playback device.

It's all strings and harp. Don't expect high definition transients here - that's neither the performance nor the score. Feel free to make your own comparisons.

1975 DG original von Karajan DG 2707 081 - 2 LP symphony with movements 3&4 on 1 side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpjglT18H_o

2023 DG TOS von Karajan DG 486 3845 - 2 LP symphony with each movement on its own side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ki7UB46VnWs

 

[Kjetil]

No contest on this one either, even with this extra long signal path.
(I compared with my iPhone12 Mini to my Phonaks, ha!)

 

[UEM]

oldvinyl,

I found this link:

The Original Source Series

Deutsche Grammophon announces the launch of The Original Source - The new audiophile pure analogue vinyl series

www.the-original-source.com

I confess: I'm not too sure, whether the Echo Chamber was part of the original Quadro Recording OR newly added in the re-mastering process.

I further admit: I'm not a big fan of too much additional (artificial ?) room & space.
On the speakers it may - and usually does - sound impressive, but on headphones it could tip the wrong way - just my thougts, of course...

Regards
Urs

 

[oldvinyl]

I confess: I'm not too sure, whether the Echo Chamber was part of the original Quadro Recording OR newly added in the re-mastering process.

Thanks! I somehow missed that part when I was reading about the TOS remastering. They mention the echo chamber, but only say that the recordings indicate the use of reverb. Must be "season to taste".

"A number of these “Quadro” recordings call for additional reverb. Adding artificial reverb to an existing recording is not a new concept: it was already common practice in the original 1970s mixes. Today, Emil Berliner Studios use an echo chamber of about 400 cubic meters, which is connected directly to the SP79 mastering console. By using a second tape machine as an analogue tape delay, any amount of pre-delay can be created for the reverb. This allows for adjusting the room size according to the repertoire."

Whatever they are doing, the ambience of the hall for the symphonic works sounds cavernous on my system. I like the effect.

I can hear the added reverb fade in and out on some of my Verve jazz records, especially on vocals.

 

[UEM]

Whatever they are doing, the ambience of the hall for the symphonic works sounds cavernous on my system. I like the effect

I take back my criticism of the artificial reverb: Also with the STAX headphones it sounds wonderful and absolutely top !
What strikes me - especially with the STAX, which is very sensitive in this aspect - is the completely "black" background - no noise, nothing etc., ! super !

Regards
Urs

 

[oldvinyl]

BTW: If anyone would like to get rid off the TOS Verdi Requiem with Karajan - I would happily be a taker...
I do have an original DGG album from 1972 - and the TOS version is sold out

Acoustic Sounds still shows the Verdi available for preorder. Not sure if they can get more copies.
There is a copy available on eBay, if you can stand the price.
They are also for sale on Discogs, with markup.

 

[Kjetil]

Any other «modern» master would use dsp reverb. Oh horrors!
That said, the necessity of added reverb on a Boston SH recording must be due to microphone placement.

 

[UEM]

=
Acoustic Sounds still shows the Verdi available for preorder. Not sure if they can get more copies......
=
Thanks for the suggestions !
Buying from overseas - I'm based in Switerland - is usually expensive, due to the shipment cost, which is higher than the record...
Others look like second hand (condition ? why are they for sale ??) - or are also on "pre-order only."

Regards
Urs