the NHB-458's are here

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, did Herve manage to retain the "magic" sound of the 108 in the mono's? Are they just a ballsier version of the 108 or sonically different in any way?

"and then some".

my 458's only have approx 200 hours so far and so they have a ways to go to be optimal, maybe approaching over 500+ hours i'm told before the whole picture comes into full focus. yet beyond the additional weight and effortlessness, there is already another level or two higher refinement and liquidity over the 108, as well as a 'see into' and 'see around' aspect to the sound which is an altogether different thing. and the delicacy is unmatched with anything i've heard other than the 45 Tube SET's i had briefly a couple years ago.

the effortlessness cannot be overstated as allowing such detail and harmonic richness to be easily percieved. watching the readouts of current watt output and peak output on the front of the 458's shows how little the MM7's are asking of the 458's. the highest peak i've yet observed is 210 watts; which was when i fed it an initiial big drum hit with the volume in the wrong spot.

most music is in the 0 to 4 watt area, rising to 10-20 watts from time to time. then peaks can get higher.

i'd say 'magic' of the 108 x 2 or 3 so far. stay tuned.

the 458's have the same if not a bit more clear and open top end of the 108's; the 458's have a slightly more fleshed out mid-range along with more tonal density. yet a higher transparency. i'm doing my best to describe my impressions with my limited vocabulary and word skills. hopefully i'm not painting a contradictory description. in my mind's eye i'm trying to recall how i percieve the differences and i sort of jump around with snippets of thought.

noisefloor is hard to compare. both are very quiet, a vanishingly low noise floor is one of the huge attributes of the 108 over any other amp i have heard. yet the 458's uncover more detail, in some cases lots more...and you get this weightyness and ambient definition that is eire. yet i cannot say it is quieter than the 108. both the 108 and 458 have very low parts count in the signal path.

looking back now i'm glad i had 3-4 weeks with the full MM7's and the 108's to be able to fully appreciate what the 458's can do. my 108 did sell this week and is on the way to a new home.....it is a great amplifier and it took alot to top it.

 

[joeinid]

Mike,

Sounds great. I can only imagine what you are experiencing. I love my Dart 108 and finally sold my Burmester gear. Nothing, in my opinion, compares to Dartzeel. I hope to add the Dartzeel preamp as soon as possible.

 

[MarinJim]

Mike,

Sounds great. I can only imagine what you are experiencing. I love my Dart 108 and finally sold my Burmester gear. Nothing, in my opinion, compares to Dartzeel. I hope to add the Dartzeel preamp as soon as possible.

I do love your sense of adventure Joe!

 

[joeinid]

I do love your sense of adventure Joe!

As I do love your sense of adventure as well.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

got a new camera and lens. i was very frustrated with the quality of the pics i had been taking and wondered if part of it might have been maybe the camera and lens. or rather the particular combo of my sucky skill level and the tools i had.

i'm pretty happy with these right out of the box (got the camera last night).....the new camera is the Nikon D600, the lens is the 24-70. nothing like having the right tool.

full disclosure; i did download some settings for this camera for the custom presets and used those. i've spent almost zero time with the camera.

these pics are so much better than my previous 458 pics i figured i'd post them here rather than the camera forum.

 

[audioarcher]

Those are some nice pics. Great focus and good lighting.

 

[rockitman]

Nice eye candy Mike...The 24-70 is a very sharp lense and the camera body is great too. Too bad at audiogon you can't keep the resolution of the picture once up loaded.

 

[joeinid]

Those are some nice pics. Great focus and good lighting.

Very nice Mike. I absolutely love the look of those babies. Thank you for for sharing the Dartzeel porn.

 

[Elberoth]

Thank for the pics. Pls make some see-through images of the amps' internals !

BTW - not sure if this question was already asked (hopefully not), but how do these monos compare to your SET amps in terms of bloom around images, microdynasmics and the treble finesse - you know, those kind of things SET amps in general excel at ?

 

[LL21]

Thank for the pics. Pls make some see-through images of the amps' internals !

BTW - not sure if this question was already asked (hopefully not), but how do these monos compare to your SET amps in terms of bloom around images, microdynasmics and the treble finesse - you know, those kind of things SET amps in general excel ?

+1...particularly since Mike had SETs in his system before, i am interested to know his thoughts on this as well!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Thank for the pics. Pls make some see-through images of the amps' internals !

i just spent an hour or so trying different ways to get better pictures of the very sexy internals of the 458's. i tried flash and no flash, various angles, and a separate spot from various angles. the problem is the reflectivity of the glass. unless i somehow got light inside the cabinet i cannot think of a way to do it. and i will not even think about any attempt at disassembly to get pics.

it works best with daylight and being a distance away to minimize the reflectivity and maximize the natural light from all angles like the pics above. any sort of light direct onto it makes it less visible. no doubt this is a lack of talent on my part. i'll keep working on it and maybe at some point i'll figure it out or get coached up. sorry.

you can cerrtainly get up close and see everything.....and it's like looking inside a swiss watch.

BTW - not sure if this question was already asked (hopefully not), but how do these monos compare to your SET amps in terms of bloom around images, microdynasmics and the treble finesse - you know, those kind of things SET amps in general excel at ?

+1...particularly since Mike had SETs in his system before, i am interested to know his thoughts on this as well!

first; the 108 really blooms in a more real way than either the 45 or 2a3 SET's. the 108 is more extended on top and persents more note decay. you hear farther into the music with the Found Music SET's than the 108 but there is a bit of tube rush so the 108 is quieter.. you hear farther into the music with the 458's than the SET's and the 458's are quieter yet.

to me bloom related to music is note development and should resemble real life music. the 108 and 458 get that more right than the SET's.

the SET's do give you a bit more liquidity and that 'floating' kind of imaging. however; that's an artifact of their presentation and not something in the recording. it's overlayed on everything. sometimes to wonderful effect, other times in the way of the music. with a flea powered SET you live for the moments when it's great. i totally get what they do and respect lovers of that.

the 45 SET especially did have something i call 'speed inside the note' which is not related to the blooming. it had this magical inner detail that i had never heard before. the 458's also do this but it's captured more in context with the whole picture.....and inner detail that 'explains' the bigger picture. so the magic of the 45 and 2a3 have something in common with the 458 that is special but it does not exactly come thru in the same way. one draws direct attention to itself and justifys tradeoffs in other places and the other uses it to take the whole picture to a new level.

specifcally the 'speed inside the note' from the SET's relates to microdynamics and the 2 SET's have that but the macrodynamics are blunted. in the 458 the microdynamics are more evidant, and only supercharge the matching macrodynamics. treble finesse comparison is difficult because the SET's were relatively closed in on top compared to the 108. of course; most other amps are closed in on top compared to the 108 too. the SET's certainly are sweet and smooth in the top end and likely on the right over 100db efficient speaker the comparisons would be different. the 458 is more refined on top than the 108 and just as extended and sweet in the top.

i hope this makes sense.

 

[jazdoc]

Mike, I'm actually concerned that you are describing the innards of your amplifier as "sexy". What's really going on in that room??

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, I'm actually concerned that you are describing the innards of your amplifier as "sexy". What's really going on in that room??

get a hall pass and come on over and join in the fun.

 

[jazdoc]

get a hall pass and come on over and join in the fun.

Hmmm. I probably need to get out there and check things out...purely for the good of the WBF community!

I know you'll be shocked to know that I have some new LPs to bring over

 

[MarinJim]

Mike, I'm actually concerned that you are describing the innards of your amplifier as "sexy". What's really going on in that room??

Are those beasts I see in those monos?

 

[LL21]

first; the 108 really blooms in a more real way than either the 45 or 2a3 SET's. the 108 is more extended on top and persents more note decay. you hear farther into the music with the Found Music SET's than the 108 but there is a bit of tube rush so the 108 is quieter.. you hear farther into the music with the 458's than the SET's and the 458's are quieter yet.

to me bloom related to music is note development and should resemble real life music. the 108 and 458 get that more right than the SET's.

the SET's do give you a bit more liquidity and that 'floating' kind of imaging. however; that's an artifact of their presentation and not something in the recording. it's overlayed on everything. sometimes to wonderful effect, other times in the way of the music. with a flea powered SET you live for the moments when it's great. i totally get what they do and respect lovers of that.

the 45 SET especially did have something i call 'speed inside the note' which is not related to the blooming. it had this magical inner detail that i had never heard before. the 458's also do this but it's captured more in context with the whole picture.....and inner detail that 'explains' the bigger picture. so the magic of the 45 and 2a3 have something in common with the 458 that is special but it does not exactly come thru in the same way. one draws direct attention to itself and justifys tradeoffs in other places and the other uses it to take the whole picture to a new level.

specifcally the 'speed inside the note' from the SET's relates to microdynamics and the 2 SET's have that but the macrodynamics are blunted. in the 458 the microdynamics are more evidant, and only supercharge the matching macrodynamics. treble finesse comparison is difficult because the SET's were relatively closed in on top compared to the 108. of course; most other amps are closed in on top compared to the 108 too. the SET's certainly are sweet and smooth in the top end and likely on the right over 100db efficient speaker the comparisons would be different. the 458 is more refined on top than the 108 and just as extended and sweet in the top.

i hope this makes sense.

Fantastic! Thanks!!!

 

[nirodha]

Those are some nice pics. Great focus and good lighting.

Agreed: great stuff (photos and "models" . Enjoy!!!

 

[Kingsrule]

words mean little on this subject.

i'll only say that the issue for me is retirement. that is why i am likely done. i've investigated many areas of our hobby and in each area dived in and then simplified after i found my reference. so my sources, preamp, amps, speakers, power grid, room and location are done. i have pretty much the music i want in the formats i like.

my intention would be to be open to small upgrades of current gear, but overall to stay pretty much where i'm at.

check back in 2-3 years.

M

Its been 2 years.
Are you still using the 458's?
What adjustments have you made to your room and system?

I'm really thinking about the 458's...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

M

Its been 2 years.
Are you still using the 458's?
What adjustments have you made to your room and system?

I'm really thinking about the 458's...

it's hard to talk about the 458's without getting carried away.....so forgive me as i blather away in response to your question. if anything I'm more impressed today than 2 years ago with these amazing amplifiers. living with them is like peeling an onion, it seems they keep revealing more and more musical nuance and truth. i am constantly confronted with music that is compelling and beautiful. there is a refinement and ease to everything that is so soothing and enjoyable. the most dynamically challenging passages simply happen with no stress or strain. the media and recording are the only limits.

the bass performance thru the MM7's is simply beyond anything I've ever heard anywhere. there is nothing that this combination cannot do that is on a recording.

2 significant things, but seemingly minor, have changed in the last 2 years in my system.

last May the designer of my Evolution Acoustics MM7 speakers did visit and do the final adjustments to the big boys. and they are better in some significant but subtle ways.

and then in June I had the privilege of 2 weeks with the Herve's pre-production version of the totally new NHB-18NS darTZeel preamp. as great sounding as my 8 year old 18NS dart pre is, this new one is quite a bit better both as a preamp and phono stage. and the way it synergizes with the 458's is magical. I've ordered the new dart preamp, and I'm told the first ones will be produced sometime over the next couple of months. I cannot wait to get the new pre back in my system.

otherwise, the only other changes are the upgrade of my Durand Telos tone arm to the full Sapphire version, which is a significant change for the better for the vinyl, and i did add the Herzan active isolation for my tt and sources about 2 years ago which are significant too.

I'd say that the 458's seem to be able to capture any additional information that they are given and bring you that much closer to the reality of music. they seem to have no limits in terms of nuance and dynamics, both marco and micro. and in my system where my room has so much space and is quite live, the 458's are able to keep the music under control and things never get hard, or confused, or compressed. this duality of amazing naturalness and nuance, combined with the grip and control......is wonderful.

the perfect amplifier?

for me, for my room and system, yes it is. i know of no alternative that could do what it does.

YMMV.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

have not yet heard the 458 but I notice a few things about your findings:

Your Preamp is 8 years old and still a TOL and still a SOTA.
the 108 is as old if not older. they remain among the best amps around
Thus the 458 will likely last a very long time too..

There exist a few brands that do not come out with the new flavor of the month component while producing real SOTA for the ages: Burmester, FM Acoustics, Boulder, Dar Tzeel to name these few . Their designs simply last a long time . This is the kind of brand I am willing to invest into.

I am sure you will keep your Dartz for a few more years. There might be subtle incremental improvements from the manufacturer but nothing in their opinions worthy of a new model name .. That is value, that is true performance IMO.. Compare this to the endless "new" models , ARC introduces every other week ....