The Noob Linearity factor

[bonzo75]

Kedar,

How does NL apply to an experienced audiophile who changes direction without (debatably) implementing a paradigm shift?

For example, zerostargeneral is one of our very most experienced members. While holding loudspeakers constant (Pnoe) he shifted from Mayer low power SET to Trafomatic Elysium high power SET, and from Vyger/linear-tracking/Red Sparrow/RIAA to Viv Labs/pivoting/active cartridge/no RIAA.

How do you analyze this shift under NL philosophy?

Thank you.

1. NL applies where the newbie started in the obvious fashion that is possible right now, I cited some examples earlier – if I were to go out in London to learn about audio as a newbie, obvious shops will expose me to KEF, B&W, Krell, Wilson, Naim, etc…This creates an initial impression due to inexperience and he continues with those assumptions 20 years later.

1. NL does not apply if you change paths when you are experienced. It is Noob linearity, after all.

G does not fit into 1. If G changed his approach today NL wouldn’t apply as he is already experienced. He is changing an experienced viewpoint not an inexperienced one.

Of his changes that you mentioned, I would say the RIAA no RIAA is more of a paradigm shift. Now, only if it became obvious that no RIAA was regularly better than RIAA, RIAA would become NL, as that is something he and others accepted as obvious early on and carried on with it

 

[Kingrex]

Even though Ked may not have said all that I will, I feel where he is coming from. I have on a few threads said I wish the mainstream media would have a addendum or subcategory periodical focusing on horns and set. Something other than ported box speakers.

I also agree, the vast majority of stores are SS and Ported Box. And those stores in order to survive push clients to more and more, larger and larger of the same stuff.

Its hard to become exposed to good horns. I went to a store and heard 5 sets of horns. Disliked them all. Even Howards I have said I could not handle every day. I went to another store and heard 3 more horns. Did not like them at all. I have gone to horn rooms at shows. Never good. One of my very good friends has Lescalla and Line Magnetic in the second room. He does not dedicate the primary room that is Focal and KSA250 to the horn.

Blanket statement coming. Poorly set up Box speakers are ok. Poorly set up horns are horrible. Most people room photo scream poorly set up. Better to have a ok sounding box speaker.

It takes a lot of work to tune any system. Tuning is scary to some degree. Its easy to go backwards and not know your messing it up. It takes time, education and support to learn to tune. Blanket statement again. People with money don't have the time to tune, so they buy parts and pieces such as cables and a power conditioner hoping it will get them there. Its easy to do and it does change the sound.

I have a hybrid system. If anyone were to listen to my system, they would say its nice. They get it. But they would go home and be happy the route they went.
Addendum. With the Blade amp, OMFG - I was floored what my stereo does. I had just finished PNWAF and with the Blade, I liked my stereo better than anything I heard at the show. Bar non. Even the maker of the amp said he was shocked at what my speakers did. He said, (I did not think they had it in them. But they really rose to the occasion).

FWIW, I need to change my signature. My Dartzeel is sold. I am waiting on delivery if the Found Music Blade. In the interim I have a KT88 PP amp that cost about $5k playing. The Dartzeel was way better. I miss a lot the Dartzeel does.

 

[Ron Resnick]

1. NL applies where the newbie started in the obvious fashion that is possible right now, I cited some examples earlier – if I were to go out in London to learn about audio as a newbie, obvious shops will expose me to KEF, B&W, Krell, Wilson, Naim, etc…This creates an initial impression due to inexperience and he continues with those assumptions 20 years later.
2. NL does not apply if you change paths when you are experienced. It is Noob linearity, after all.

G does not fit into 1. If G changed his approach today NL wouldn’t apply as he is already experienced. He is changing an experienced viewpoint not an inexperienced one.

Of his changes that you mentioned, I would say the RIAA no RIAA is more of a paradigm shift. Now, only if it became obvious that no RIAA was regularly better than RIAA, RIAA would become NL, as that is something he and others accepted as obvious early on and carried on with it

Thank you.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Hi Marc,

I fully appreciate your frustration with Kedar. While at first look this analogy sounds correct (and amusing), upon further analysis I think it is partly unfair.

If the putative chef never cooked a steak, I would agree with you. But when Kedar visits audiophiles, if they indulge him, Kedar aggressively swaps components in and out, and compares different combinations of components. So while Kedar is not cooking his own steaks at home, I think he is arguably a traveling chef who cooks steaks in the homes of the people he visits.

But he doesn't, now you're misled, Ron. You say he turns up as this "travelling chef", but the proprietors still do the cooking. He's just a visitor, with opinions. And of course, the whole hobby is opinions.

Until he sets up a system that absolutely takes one in a more realistic direction from those he despises, he remains a Noob himself.

You gotta walk the walk, not just talk.

 

[bonzo75]

But he doesn't, now you're misled, Ron. You say he turns up as this "travelling chef", but the proprietors still do the cooking. He's just a visitor, with opinions. And of course, the whole hobby is opinions.

Until he sets up a system that absolutely takes one in a more realistic direction from those he despises, he remains a Noob himself.

You gotta walk the walk, not just talk.

Marc, after listening to 200 concerts since moving, what did you change in your system apart from adding Arya blades?

 

[spiritofmusic]

New TT plinth/footers/motor, improved materials arm/wire, changed stylus type, major surgery on amps/better tubes, room treatments, repositioning Zus.
Not that makes me anything other than a Noob with a single track mind in sticking with my Zus. Just a bigger bank balance.
Why is my experience of 200 concerts to be glossed over? Incl my dozen plus visits to lots of horns and Apogee owners?
This is your tactic, surely? Exposure to live music, exposure to systems.

 

[wil]

Just some stuff to show off a system do tutti, there are various other aspects of musicality you can show off. While I appreciate playing some standard accepted recording for common ness like that or Royal ballet suite or such, there are many other passages and recordings and aspects that are available. There are some which get introduced at the early phase of the career. Like in rock it will be playing back The Wall

Right, I get it. I was just making the point that Stravinsky has a lot of smaller scale, more obscure work that is great music.

 

[bonzo75]

Right, I get it. I was just making the point that Stravinsky has a lot of smaller scale, more obscure work that is great music.

yes agreed

 

[montesquieu]

So while Kedar is not cooking his own steaks at home, I think he is arguably a traveling chef who cooks steaks in the homes of the people he visits.

Not sure about steak. That takes a whole 10 minutes. Scrambled egg maybe. That's about as much as you can make with 30 second snippets.

More seriously, I think this whole 'debate' is rather pointless - the premise is completely off. Some people increment towards a goal. Some people chop and change like crazy. It's a hobby, so what's the harm either way? There is no such thing as perfection, and more than one way to skin a cat. The possibilities are literally infinite.

Over 40 years I've gone from Tannoy DC to multi-driver monsters to horns to ESLs and back to Tannoy DCs - which have stuck around now for well over a decade. I've also given decent auditions to many more. Turntables - Technics DD to LP12 to Rock Reference to tricked out Garrard 401 to Voyd 3-motor to Schopper'd Thorens TD124 ( the last of which has also stuck around for over a decade). And the same with amps to match the speakers, cartridges, phono stages etc. After 30 years of vinyl listening I happened across my first LCR phono stage - an Aurorasound Vida. I liked it but felt it could be improved - I'm now on my fourth. Is that game changing (the discovery of LCR) or boring, invalid incrementalism? And who cares anyway?

Does all this major hacking about make me a 10th Dan Hifi Guru able to look down my nose at people who 'upgrade' a component at a time? No, of course it doesn't, my opinion is no more (or less) valid than anyone else's. Including Ked's who with his tiny snippets of music clearly is looking for specific things, but I doubt very much they are anything close to the same specific things as I look for when I audition, say, a cartridge, in my own home in a system I know for three months, before I determine whether it's earned a permanent place in the box.

Therefore I think Marc's point is spot on. I don't buy the travelling steak (or omlette) flipper approach. When Ked finally does what the rest of us do, put his money with his mouth is and invite some people round for a listen to critique how he's solved the multi-dimensional challenge of assembling a satifying system our of disparate components that all need to work well together, then I think his dilettante act might legitimately acquire a bit more credibility.

 

[bonzo75]

Does all this major hacking about make me a 10th Dan Hifi Guru able to look down my nose at people

on cmon Tom, you have been banned from forums for that behaviour . You have a trail of fights on U.K. forums with people who disagree with you. And if it is taking you three months, something is wrong with your auditioning

 

[bonzo75]

Not sure about steak. That takes a whole 10 minutes. Scrambled egg maybe. That's about as much as you can make with 30 second snippets.

More seriously, I think this whole 'debate' is rather pointless - the premise is completely off. Some people increment towards a goal. Some people chop and change like crazy. It's a hobby, so what's the harm either way? There is no such thing as perfection, and more than one way to skin a cat. The possibilities are literally infinite.

Over 40 years I've gone from Tannoy DC to multi-driver monsters to horns to ESLs and back to Tannoy DCs - which have stuck around now for well over a decade. I've also given decent auditions to many more. Turntables - Technics DD to LP12 to Rock Reference to tricked out Garrard 401 to Voyd 3-motor to Schopper'd Thorens TD124 ( the last of which has also stuck around for over a decade). And the same with amps to match the speakers, cartridges, phono stages etc. After 30 years of vinyl listening I happened across my first LCR phono stage - an Aurorasound Vida. I liked it but felt it could be improved - I'm now on my fourth. Is that game changing (the discovery of LCR) or boring, invalid incrementalism? And who cares anyway?

Does all this major hacking about make me a 10th Dan Hifi Guru able to look down my nose at people who 'upgrade' a component at a time? No, of course it doesn't, my opinion is no more (or less) valid than anyone else's. Including Ked's who with his tiny snippets of music clearly is looking for specific things, but I doubt very much they are anything close to the same specific things as I look for when I audition, say, a cartridge, in my own home in a system I know for three months, before I determine whether it's earned a permanent place in the box.

Therefore I think Marc's point is spot on. I don't buy the travelling steak (or omlette) flipper approach. When Ked finally does what the rest of us do, put his money with his mouth is and invite some people round for a listen to critique how he's solved the multi-dimensional challenge of assembling a satifying system our of disparate components that all need to work well together, then I think his dilettante act might legitimately acquire a bit more credibility.

so why did you buy the Allnic phono after my snippet recommendation? Why did you fight so passionately defending Muddyke then sell it off? And btw, your Redford 100 watts is poor, nothing like the 25 watts, you should get rid of it it doesn’t let you hear too much maybe that’s why it takes you three months. Maybe shift your tannoys to Altec A5 or 7 too

 

[Ron Resnick]

Over 40 years I've gone from Tannoy DC to multi-driver monsters to horns to ESLs and back to Tannoy DCs

Purely out of curiosity, why is this? Are you a box swapper (which sounds perjorative, but truly is not; box-swapping is a legitimate and venerable sub-hobby; some people just like to try different things frequently regardless of whether they are better than what they had before)?

Did your high-end audio objectives change over time?

For example, what prompted you to replace your prior speaker with ESL, and then what prompted you to replace the ESL?

the multi-dimensional challenge of assembling a satifying system our of disparate components that all need to work well together

well-described!

 

[Lagonda]

HASTA LA VISTA baby, said Arnie to his big speaker multiple sub system

What would you call Leifs system, if not big speaker multiple big subs system ?

 

[bonzo75]

What would you call Leifs system, if not big speaker multiple big subs system ?

if you read my posts including on this thread I didn’t say big speakers are bad…there are too many other factors such as coherence and sensitivity and headroom that contribute to scale. I said big speakers for scale as a mantra is misplaced. I am a fan of dual FLH 15 and 18 inches.

regarding Leif’s, his dual FLH till 75 hz is not that tall. It is his sub below 75 hz that is big. And if I got Leif type speakers, I would be quite content to have small subs below 75. And if his design like a couple of other dual FLHs I liked went down to 40, I wouldn’t need the subs either.

dual FLH have bigger drivers than things like XVX without having that meaningless height

 

[bonzo75]

Purely out of curiosity, why is this? Are you a box swapper

He is quite a high box swapper except for speakers.

 

[montesquieu]

Purely out of curiosity, why is this? Are you a box swapper (which sounds perjorative, but truly is not; box-swapping is a legitimate and venerable sub-hobby; some people just like to try different things frequently regardless of whether they are better than what they had before)?

Did your high-end audio objectives change over time?

For example, what prompted you to replace your prior speaker with ESL, and then what prompted you to replace the ESL?


well-described!

Curiosity. Fence. Greener. Grass. I had the money so why not? I was, in the early days of hifi forums, a box-swapper, just curious about this and that component that somebody was rabbiting on about. I probably wrote as much opinionated BS as anyone else in those heady days of the mid 00s, and for a decade thereafter.

I'm not a box-swapper now. Speakers for over 10 years, my DAC upgraded several times and on the last occasion re-boxed, essentially a fully-custom component; my amp now back to the one I've owned for 10 years; TT I've owned for 10 years but I think the last major change about 3-4 years ago when it was re-plinthed and later the Ikeda arms swapped for Glanz; phono stage now an Allnic H7000V (with HA5000 head amp), my fourth LCR phono stage zooming in on what I was looking for, again owned for over 4 years, my preamp for just under that. But I wouldn't deny over the years that I've made a few wrong turns and had to rewind. Nothing wrong with that IMO. If you don't make mistakes, you aren't trying.

I'm primarily a musician, focused on early music. I play organ, harpsichord, renaissance and baroque lute. Hifi is a means to an end not an end in itself. No system anywhere can replicate what it's like to be in the middle of a baroque ensemble, playing harpsichord continuo (a small but critical part of what becomes the whole) next to a gamba player, who together play a similar role to the rhythm section in a jazz combo. But what a system CAN do is approach the musical experience of the listener, but I view this pretty much entirely now (again after many wrong turns) as about the subjective musical experience and not the objective hifi one. Does it move the internal organs in terms of rhythm? Do you get what they are trying to achieve musically? Then it's successful even if 'coloured' or even if lacking in objective 'detail'. Other people's criteria may vary, but the people's whose opinions I most respect, who I regard as peers and sometimes teachers (some are posters here), all align with this.

No system is perfect. ESLs do some things really well. DCs do other things really well, horns likewise, multi-driver speakers with He-Man power amps similarly. You choose your compromises. I'm pretty much done - not because the system can't be improved further (I'd never say that) but because my focus is on other things these days. I couldn't afford to do a music PhD after my original Bachelor's degree in music. In order to earn money, I made my career in something else, though music has always been an amateur passion. I retired last year and I'm about to start (in less than two weeks) on music study again, at a college of London University. If I have spare money now it's more likely to go on another lute.

I won't respond directly to Ked's ad hominems - unfortunately, it seems it's the only way he knows how to argue.

 

[bonzo75]

I won't respond directly to Ked's ad hominems - unfortunately, it seems it's the only way he knows how to argue.

lol. You made your entry with an anti-Ked speech and how you personally don’t thumb your nose down at other people. Then stated your bio as a musician. Still not much relevance to the NL factors of the thread as yet. Let me know when you are done with you, me, and can get to the thread topics.

fwiw, Tom has possibly one the most musical system you can listen to at a good budget and where you don’t require much more except as a sport. I respect him for that. He just has a track record of not liking even the slightest disagreement with any component owns, till he swaps it out.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Are you sure Ked? I've had no issues disagreeing with Tom about his gear, right to his face. Maybe there's disagreeing, and *disagreeing*.

 

[bonzo75]

Are you sure Ked? I've had no issues disagreeing with Tom about his gear, right to his face. Maybe there's disagreeing, and *disagreeing*.

not to his face, he is a gentleman. Check his forum posts on U.K. forums, or how angry he was with me about Madake on here, though he shortly sold it afterwards I think for Sumile and MSL, which, on snippets, I could have already told him are better, and then there are better than them too. I told him that with the "snippets" he was talking about. Miyajima is a great mono cart, sucks as a stereo cart. Unless you play it on Vyger, it is good there somehow.

 

[bonzo75]

someone mentioned that Charles Rosen said Gould couldn't play the fast left hand octaves in the Liszt transcription of Beethoven's 5th. He had to record it with two hands and dub over each other.

Speaking of which, I won a nice Charles Rosen Chopin Piano concerto columbia just now on ebay. Had been on my mind since listening to it at G's.