The pecking order

[c1ferrari]

Sounds bitchin'...

I wish there was a time when we could all get together and hear the same things. Without that point of reference, it is hard to make progress on these discussions. Summer is beautiful in Seattle. Maybe we should have an event here, making a tour of our place, Bruce, Mike, etc. What say you?

no offense inteded

 

[Mike Lavigne]

DSD (read: not PCM)?

I'm curious about quarter-inch, half-track @ 30 ips versus half-inch, half-track @ 15...no NR or processing (read: flat copies), CCIR or AES (as appropriate) EQ. In the context of a dupe chain, I would welcome your comments and experience informing us which yields a superior dub.

I'm awaiting delivery of two MRL Flutter and Speed Test cal tapes: 1/4", 15 in/s and 1/2", 30 in/s. I'll verify my A820 performance with an AP P1DD.

Personally, my sonic hierarchy has been amended: analog R2R (read: analog tracking, analog mixing, and analog mastering)...DSD...vinyl...RBCD (which gets short shrift not because of digital artifact but how it is applied).

Again, I'd love to hear your thoughts

ok Sam. i know your post was not aimed at me. but i'm curious about how you moved dsd ahead of vinyl in your pecking order. understand i'm a big dsd fan and listen to dsd and 2xdsd off my server thru the Playback Designs.

could you be specific on the gear/environment that caused you to make that choice?

thanks.

best regards,

Mike

 

[c1ferrari]

No Kidding

Only 25+ years? You've got a ways to go to catch up to Bill, who recorded and mastered "Mark-Almond '73". Or me (I co-founded the San Diego Audio Society in 1976).

I'd really like to meet and/or exchange e-mails with you

During my first year in college, '76, I had the tremendous fortune of experiencing Audio Directions in San Diego...a delightful, illuminating, and memorable sonic experience, which continued to the early 80's

Maybe, we could catch up on some of the people and occurrences we have in common

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Let me clearly restate that the purpose of this thread was not argue whether analog is superior to digital, but rather to see in what order people who have the ability to play back the 3 sources I mentioned rank the sound. And sure, it's a preference even though how you feel about is an absolute for you.

Pardon me, Mark, but given your record on this and similar topics, and a few of our off-line conversations, I assumed this "ability to play the 3 sources" was just your way of pre-dismissing the pro-digital point of view. My apologies for the misunderstanding. I have owned R2R. I have extensively recorded with R2R. I made a significant portion of my living in analog studios for more than a decade, but I have left R2R behind and no longer have it in my system, so I will exit now from the club meeting. Carry on.

Tim

 

[rbbert]

The basic premise of my post remains the same. I can cite just as many pro analog mastering engineers as you can pro digital mastering engineers

Oh and let's not try to play the game of one upsmanship. As far as time in the hobby; I was only referring to my time spent as a reviewer for several magazines of the years. I've been in the game since 1972 and have done quite a bit over the years too

Oneupmanship was not my intent, which was merely to point out that it is all opinion. Opinions of equally qualified listeners can (obviously) differ, on which I'm sure we can agree. OTOH, your original two posts "even the best digital copies done at 384 K, do not come close to making a mirror image copy of a 15 ips tape" and "And the bottom line, I've been in both studio and high-end audio for 25+ years too. That gives me a little different perspective on things" do seem to me to be an attempt at oneupmanship, but hopefully I'm wrong and just over-reacted.

 

[rbbert]

I'd really like to meet and/or exchange e-mails with you

During my first year in college, '76, I had the tremendous fortune of experiencing Audio Directions in San Diego...a delightful, illuminating, and memorable sonic experience, which continued to the early 80's

Maybe, we could catch up on some of the people and occurrences we have in common

I'm sure we ran across each other then. PM on the way.

 

[mep]

I want to thank Amir for his very honest response to what he hears with R2R at his business. We all know that Amir is not in the business of selling R2R decks or analog tape. I think I can tell from the emotions that Amir expressed that he "gets it."

 

[flez007]

the King Cello is very very good; the best repro i have heard. it will lower the nosie floor, improve dynamic contrasts, and bring an overall increased refinement to the sound.

i assume you will be using it mostly with your Nagra T?

I will use it fir both analog sources Mike, the Nagra and the EMT table.

 

[c1ferrari]

ok Sam. i know your post was not aimed at me. but i'm curious about how you moved dsd ahead of vinyl in your pecking order. understand i'm a big dsd fan and listen to dsd and 2xdsd off my server thru the Playback Designs.

could you be specific on the gear/environment that caused you to make that choice?

thanks.

best regards,

Mike

Hi Mike!

Yes, of course...

My first-hand experience is sparse -- the point of departure would be the Newport/Irvine THE Show last year.

I was able to hear a vinyl cut that M. Fremer requested be played as well as analog reel using some TP material, IIRC, in the WADAX SA suite and the identical vinyl cut, again courtesy of M. Fremer, along with DSD and 15 ips analog reel from the identical source, provided by our preeminent Bruce -- if I understand correctly, of "The Girl From Ipanema".

I vividly recall how strikingly close the DSD approached the master tape @ 15 through Jonathan's and Bruce's room

I remember mentioning to some people how I believed vinyl superseded digital...even WITH this direct experience -- I think I was trying to convince myself to adhere to my heretofore "belief schema"...

Hope this helps, Mike :b
Thanks for asking my opinion...it's been therapeutic

 

[Steve williams]

I want to thank Amir for his very honest response to what he hears with R2R at his business. We all know that Amir is not in the business of selling R2R decks or analog tape. I think I can tell from the emotions that Amir expressed that he "gets it."

not only that but Amir is a man who likes to measure so for him to say what he heard should speak volumes to others.

 

[rbbert]

In what format are your tapes, Amir (15 ips 1/4" half-track, 30 ips 1/2" half-track, or something in between?)

 

[Fast/Forward]

The basic premise of my post remains the same. I can cite just as many pro analog mastering engineers as you can pro digital mastering engineers

Oh and let's not try to play the game of one upsmanship. As far as time in the hobby; I was only referring to my time spent as a reviewer for several magazines of the years. I've been in the game since 1972 and have done quite a bit over the years too

Shame on you Myles! ;-)
You should have been on board since "Sounds Like" volume 8, page 84.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Mike!

Yes, of course...

My first-hand experience is sparse -- the point of departure would be the Newport/Irvine THE Show last year.

I was able to hear a vinyl cut that M. Fremer requested be played as well as analog reel using some TP material, IIRC, in the WADAX SA suite and the identical vinyl cut, again courtesy of M. Fremer, along with DSD and 15 ips analog reel from the identical source, provided by our preeminent Bruce -- if I understand correctly, of "The Girl From Ipanema".

I vividly recall how strikingly close the DSD approached the master tape @ 15 through Jonathan's and Bruce's room

I remember mentioning to some people how I believed vinyl superseded digital...even WITH this direct experience -- I think I was trying to convince myself to adhere to my heretofore "belief schema"...

Hope this helps, Mike :b
Thanks for asking my opinion...it's been therapeutic

thanks Sam. great description.

 

[mep]

The one thing that Sam needs to remember is that he made his comparison under show conditions and not at home. It's a miracle that anything sounds good at the trade shows. Hotel rooms are nightmares to set up in. I heard "The Girl From Ipanema" at the RMAF and according to Myles, I heard it correctly for the first time. Steve Williams, Myles, and myself were all sitting in Philip Hanlon's room listening to the LP version of "Girl From Ipanema" and the woman's voice came out of the left channel and not the right. I turned to Myles and told him the channels were reversed. Myles told me that every recording that has her voice coming from the right channel is wrong and I was hearing it correctly. I know the digital download that Fritz talked about has her singing from the right channel. I now own the LP that has her singing from the left channel. And by the way, either right channel or left channel, she is singing hard right or hard left, and never to the outside right or left of the speaker as Fritz claims he heard at his house. Maybe that is one of those parlor tricks that takes a gabillion dollars worth of gear to pull off. If the effect is real, I can't pull it off with my modest system.

 

[amirm]

In what format are your tapes, Amir (15 ips 1/4" half-track, 30 ips 1/2" half-track, or something in between?)

15 ips, quarter inch.

 

[c1ferrari]

My Pleasure and Privilege, Mike

thanks Sam. great description.

 

[fas42]

in the past, no doubt 15ips 1/4" tape master dubs have been supreme in my system. high quality tape transfers simply provide an uncluttered view into the music in every way; particularly with the continousness and completeness of musical parts. also the dynamic energy and tonal truth from tape is on another level as it simply has this amazing density of information. your brain does not need to do much work when you listen as there is less of reality missing......the relaxation you mention.

This is where the digital medium still has not come of age. And that is in the sense of a typical collection of playback gear being able to do this effortlessly. At the moment it is still a major, and difficult exercise to drag digital reproduction to this performance level, not because there are any problems with the source material, but because the industry is painfully, irksomely slowly, moving forward in coming to terms with some real issues hampering the ability for digital to sound top of the class every time.

Part of this is that is the human prediliction for being sloppy: close enough is good enough. This can work brilliantly with analogue, but is disasterous with digital. Again, digital sound takes no prisoners; if you don't do it properly -- and that doesn't mean hooking up the most expensive DAC you can find -- then CD, etc will never do it for you.

One of the very, very clear indicators of this problem the industry has, are the stories by people who enjoy first class digital sound being those who either themselves, or via efforts by others, had major tweaking done of the digital components: the industry itself is still not interested in sorting these issues out, the people designing the gear are still not listening hard enough ...

Frank

 

[c1ferrari]

Hi Mark

The one thing that Sam needs to remember is that he made his comparison under show conditions and not at home. It's a miracle that anything sounds good at the trade shows. Hotel rooms are nightmares to set up in.

Yes, agreed. Vinyl would probably be more difficult to optimize. With that said, Jonathan's and Bruce's room were in my Top Three Best of Sound and it was my spouse's, Sonny's, Top Room for Sound

I heard "The Girl From Ipanema" at the RMAF and according to Myles, I heard it correctly for the first time. Steve Williams, Myles, and myself were all sitting in Philip Hanlon's room listening to the LP version of "Girl From Ipanema" and the woman's voice came out of the left channel and not the right. I turned to Myles and told him the channels were reversed. Myles told me that every recording that has her voice coming from the right channel is wrong and I was hearing it correctly. I know the digital download that Fritz talked about has her singing from the right channel. I now own the LP that has her singing from the left channel. And by the way, either right channel or left channel, she is singing hard right or hard left...

We had four sources of the Getz/Gilberto classic -- two digital (RBCD, DSD) and two analog (vinyl, 15 ips master copy) -- and they exhibited Astrud Gilberto's vocal from either side of the soundstage...panned hard left or right.

 

[FrantzM]

c1ferrari

I am not sure I am reading you right .. SHould I infer from what you posted here that what you heard from the DSD (DIgital) was so close to the 15 ips that , to paraphrase you

I think I was trying to convince myself to adhere to my heretofore "belief schema"...

..
So as to be free of misunderstanding, may I ask what was your previous belief schema?

 

[FrantzM]

c1ferrari

I am not sure I am reading you right .. SHould I infer from what you posted here that what you heard from the DSD (DIgital) was so close to the 15 ips that , to paraphrase you

I think I was trying to convince myself to adhere to my heretofore "belief schema"...

..
So as to be free of misunderstanding, may I ask what was your previous belief schema?