The Problem of reproducing large scale Orchestral music

[wil]

There is an excellent thread from 2020 on Audiogon (link below) delving into the difficulty massed violins present to the recording process, to audio systems and to audiophile ears. The thread is populated by several professional violinists and is notably devoid of ego-flexing. Highly recommend!

Beyond massed violins, the discussion also applies to choral, opera, energetic brass bands ... you get the idea.

A good rendition of large scale orchestra or opera, in the complex cacophony of loud and higher frequency passages, is, in my opinion, the holy grail buried in snow at the summit of Mt. Audio. My experience, beyond my listening room, is that live venues can also suffer from the same difficulties.

The challenge can come from a complex of sources:

-- multiple violins, all with slightly different sound signatures conjoining to produce a complex of harmonics that is difficult for mics and the ears to resolve.

-- poor recording technique - multi-mics poorly positioned for best violin sound

-- frequency ranges that present reproduction stress to speakers at their crossovers between mid and tweeter

-- Room issues

My personal experience is that this is only a problem in particularly high volume, high frequency strident passages (that if heard live would peak over 100db). More "reasonable" massed strings sound silky smooth. I've also found that some male Tenors sometimes have a particular glare. I wonder if that could be a crossover issue. Or is it just because their powerful voices overwhelm the poor microphones? And choral music at higher octaves and volumes is maybe the most difficult of all. I also think some people's hearing can be particularly sensitive to high frequencies at high volume.

I've been thinking about this more lately as I've been on a deep dive into Mahler's symphonies. And, Gustav, despite giving us hours of sublime beauty, loves to let loose with some rare but sadistic passages of high octave strings, winds (particularly flutes and piccolos) and horns all crescendoing together at ecstatic SPL's.

Interested to hear other's experiences and ideas

Audiogon Discussion Forum

why do massed violins have this sort of gritty sandpapery reverberation in classical orchestral recordings?even in some sections of a piece, when the vi...

forum.audiogon.com

 

[PeterA]

Interesting question. I particularly like your phrases “ the holy Grail buried in the snow at the summit of Mount Audio” and “ rare but sadistic of high octave strings all crescendoing pretending together ecstatic SPL’s”. Great writing. I look forward to the response responses.

 

[hifiguy42]

Just last night, I was listening to the recent DG TOS Mahler's 6th and thought to myself "why do the crescendos make me wince a little bit?" and while my system is strictly pedestrian, in all my years of listening to different systems, attending audio shows, etc it's always that way. I also appreciate the way you phrased the "rare but sadistic" comment - very succinct!

 

[hifiguy42]

One addition - this isn't the case with a solo violin passage. I can listen to Heifetz saw away through Bruch's Scottish Fantasy at 80-90 db and it sounds so sweet I am transfixed. It's only when a bunch of them are going at it.

 

[Al M.]

Just last night, I was listening to the recent DG TOS Mahler's 6th and thought to myself "why do the crescendos make me wince a little bit?" and while my system is strictly pedestrian, in all my years of listening to different systems, attending audio shows, etc it's always that way. I also appreciate the way you phrased the "rare but sadistic" comment - very succinct!

Actually, as I recently experienced, some of the string writing in Mahler's 6th does sound strident live as well, intentionally so for the sake of emotional expression.

That of course does not take away the fact that systems do tend to have difficulties with massed strings. Yet not everything that is not beautiful or "sweet" is "wrong" per se.

What is more, neither do you want the opposite, making things sound more beautiful than they are. Some system tend to err in that direction. That's not high fidelity either.

 

[hopkins]

The last time I heard a string section in concert was in the Paris "Maison de la Radio". The picture below is of a string quartet - I heard a symphonic orchestra.



No issues with the sound. The violins sounded very good. No system I have heard can reproduce the "finesse" of live sound.

 

[Grateful]

The last time I heard a string section in concert was in the Paris "Maison de la Radio". The picture below is of a string quartet - I heard a symphonic orchestra.

View attachment 148132

No issues with the sound. The violins sounded very good. No system I have heard can reproduce the "finesse" of live sound.

Strongly agree and I think it applies much more broadly than just orchestral sound. For example, I saw Jerry Garcia live over 300 times and I’ve never heard a system that matched Jerry’s live sound. Admittedly, The Grateful Dead spent much more of their gross income, on their concert system, than almost any other musical group.

 

[tima]

There is an excellent thread from 2020 on Audiogon (link below) delving into the difficulty massed violins present to the recording process, to audio systems and to audiophile ears. The thread is populated by several professional violinists and is notably devoid of ego-flexing. Highly recommend!

Beyond massed violins, the discussion also applies to choral, opera, energetic brass bands ... you get the idea.

A good rendition of large scale orchestra or opera, in the complex cacophony of loud and higher frequency passages, is, in my opinion, the holy grail buried in snow at the summit of Mt. Audio. My experience, beyond my listening room, is that live venues can also suffer from the same difficulties.

The challenge can come from a complex of sources:

-- multiple violins, all with slightly different sound signatures conjoining to produce a complex of harmonics that is difficult for mics and the ears to resolve.

-- poor recording technique - multi-mics poorly positioned for best violin sound

-- frequency ranges that present reproduction stress to speakers at their crossovers between mid and tweeter

-- Room issues

My personal experience is that this is only a problem in particularly high volume, high frequency strident passages (that if heard live would peak over 100db). More "reasonable" massed strings sound silky smooth. I've also found that some male Tenors sometimes have a particular glare. I wonder if that could be a crossover issue. Or is it just because their powerful voices overwhelm the poor microphones? And choral music at higher octaves and volumes is maybe the most difficult of all. I also think some people's hearing can be particularly sensitive to high frequencies at high volume.

I've been thinking about this more lately as I've been on a deep dive into Mahler's symphonies. And, Gustav, despite giving us hours of sublime beauty, loves to let loose with some rare but sadistic passages of high octave strings, winds (particularly flutes and piccolos) and horns all crescendoing together at ecstatic SPL's.

Interested to hear other's experiences and ideas

Audiogon Discussion Forum

why do massed violins have this sort of gritty sandpapery reverberation in classical orchestral recordings?even in some sections of a piece, when the vi...

forum.audiogon.com

An excellent topic, Wil.

The large variety of instrumental timbre at varying pitch and speed across wide dynamic gradations is a true challenge for any stereo system. So many combinations across years and years of compositions and composers yields a lifetime of discovery. I freely admit my bias that if a stereo system is able to reproduce large orchestral or choral music well, it should do likewise well with other musical genres.

I believe one key to the issues you raise is achieving an overall balanced sound across lows, mids and highs. Imo the success of higher frequency reproduction is grounded on excellent mid and lower frequency reproduction. Ultimately bass and mid bass are the foundation on which all else rests -- it you don't have natual bass with tonal depth and articulation, the rest cannot complete itself.

Imo massed violins should not always be be silky smooth. They certainly can be. There should be a 'shimmer' indicative of multiple performers and sections playing together whose harmonics can rise above to enjoin a cloud hovering above the strings. If the majority of massed violins sound silky smooth, you're listening to Stowkowski's free bowing.

If you sit with live violins or trumpets you can hear tremendous energy and on occasion direct peaks that depending on the quality of a stereo may reproduce as strident. Two unasked for advices: 1) check the quality of the mids and lows, and 2) try pointing speakers straight ahead.

The works of Mahler are a fine place to explore. And there are others such as Bruckner, Shostakovich, Wagner's Gesamtkunstwerk, even Tchaikowsky and Strauss and maybe Dvorak. The Verdi Requiem is a huge challenge.

I have not read the A'gon thread but will try to get to it. Keep this thread going.

 

[hopkins]

The last time I heard a string section in concert was in the Paris "Maison de la Radio". The picture below is of a string quartet - I heard a symphonic orchestra.

View attachment 148132

No issues with the sound. The violins sounded very good. No system I have heard can reproduce the "finesse" of live sound.

Coincidentally, they are playing Mahler tomorrow !

Mahler, Symphonie n°9 - Daniele Gatti | Maison de la radio et de la Musique

Une symphonie des adieux pour un retour. Fervent mahlérien, l’ancien directeur musical de l’Orchestre National de France Daniele Gatti décline, en trois soirées, une thématique viennoise, avec un premier voyage du côté de la Neuvième. Une œuvre-monde foisonnante, tumultueuse, contradictoire...

www.maisondelaradioetdelamusique.fr

The Maison de la Radio is a 10 min bike ride from my home. I should go more often...

 

[microstrip]

Massed strings can convey very different musical messages - they must sound sweet, powerful, strident, dissonant, piercing ... Hard to use individual recordings as a tool to evaluate or set up a system - sound engineers use very different techniques to record them.

However IMO they are an excellent sign of a successful system when I find people to enjoy music such as Penderecki – Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima, Shostakovich – Symphony No. 10, Second Movement or even the well known Kirie of Ligeti Requiem. In all these recordings the massed strings are the glue that holds the illusion - other instruments or voices hold on them.

Massed strings need a good feeling of space and energy - they should spread in the soundstage and be steady in the recording. I have listened to systems where they collapsed when played hard.

When everything is playing good in a system massed strings sound great!

 

[PLF]

However IMO they are an excellent sign of a successful system when I find people to enjoy music such as Penderecki – Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima,

I also use Hiroshima Threnody as one of my key test tracks when I am testing equipment.

For Mahler, I like using the first movement of Mahler's 5 fifth - the funeral march (Trauermarsch). I choose the Chailly with Concergebouw version which is very well recorded.

 

[wil]

Coincidentally, they are playing Mahler tomorrow !

Mahler, Symphonie n°9 - Daniele Gatti | Maison de la radio et de la Musique

Une symphonie des adieux pour un retour. Fervent mahlérien, l’ancien directeur musical de l’Orchestre National de France Daniele Gatti décline, en trois soirées, une thématique viennoise, avec un premier voyage du côté de la Neuvième. Une œuvre-monde foisonnante, tumultueuse, contradictoire...

www.maisondelaradioetdelamusique.fr

The Maison de la Radio is a 10 min bike ride from my home. I should go more often...

I've just been listening to the 9th lately. Fantastic!

An excellent topic, Wil.

The large variety of instrumental timbre at varying pitch and speed across wide dynamic gradations is a true challenge for any stereo system. So many combinations across years and years of compositions and composers yields a lifetime of discovery. I freely admit my bias that if a stereo system is able to reproduce large orchestral or choral music well, it should do likewise well with other musical genres.

I believe one key to the issues you raise is achieving an overall balanced sound across lows, mids and highs. Imo the success of higher frequency reproduction is grounded on excellent mid and lower frequency reproduction. Ultimately bass and mid bass are the foundation on which all else rests -- it you don't have natual bass with tonal depth and articulation, the rest cannot complete itself.

Imo massed violins should not always be be silky smooth. They certainly can be. There should be a 'shimmer' indicative of multiple performers and sections playing together whose harmonics can rise above to enjoin a cloud hovering above the strings. If the majority of massed violins sound silky smooth, you're listening to Stowkowski's free bowing.

If you sit with live violins or trumpets you can hear tremendous energy and on occasion direct peaks that depending on the quality of a stereo may reproduce as strident. Two unasked for advices: 1) check the quality of the mids and lows, and 2) try pointing speakers straight ahead.

The works of Mahler are a fine place to explore. And there are others such as Bruckner, Shostakovich, Wagner's Gesamtkunstwerk, even Tchaikowsky and Strauss and maybe Dvorak. The Verdi Requiem is a huge challenge.

I have not read the A'gon thread but will try to get to it. Keep this thread going.

I agree and I'm going to put more work into the bass foundation. Maybe a Geddes type bass array.

 

[tima]

The Audiogon thread was all over the map -- from the nature of violin playing, to the recording, to equipment issues. I'm not sure what to make of it, although apparently several people had issues with massed string reproduction.

I agree and I'm going to put more work into the bass foundation. Maybe a Geddes type bass array.

Interesting. That would be forum member Duke Le Jeune and AudioKinesis as one expert source.

Is that an AMT tweeter in the MMA 7s?. I've heard those sounding very clear. Are you dissatisfied with the bass towers?

 

[wil]

The MM7's use a Ribbon tweeter: Aurum Cantus G3Si.

I wouldn't say I'm dissatisfied with the bass towers but my thought is that my Room may be asking for a different solution. The Evolution active bass towers are designed to be time aligned and there are no phase controls, so a very different approach than a Swarm!

My speaker/subs were setup by a well recognized guy and for various reasons needed to set them up a few feet back which is probably not the ideal for the EVA design. I also directed him that I wanted no bass overhang at any cost! Maybe the result went too far in one direction? Really impossible to know at this point anyway.

The bass sounds accurate, vibrant, tonally articulate and with absolutely no overhang. All good, but I sense there's a lack of overall body/weight. My thought is that a sub bass swarm could be dialed in to make the room cooperate towards the goal of more weight. And at the same time improve overall frequency performance I hope.

I've been talking with JR Bosclair and trust that if anyone can figure it out he can.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I've been talking with JR Bosclair and trust that if anyone can figure it out he can.

i feel like i have figured out massed strings with MM7's in my room; OTOH J.R. Bosclair was here in my room a year ago and seemed to enjoy it, but who knows what he was really thinking.

my favorite and most played music is String Quartets and Quintets.

the speaker is easily able to handle complex large scale music with massed strings. but getting the room to the point of being able to be cohesive at high SPL's is a challenge that took me many years to accomplish, including a two day visit from Kevin Malmgren the speaker designer, along the way. the MM7's move so much air that it is a handful to get right. but the payoff is worth it.

Wil; i can't recall now if your MM7's have the full height bass towers, or the half height?

retaining tonal rightness, along with weight, presence and scale for me was a matter of fine tuning my room along with the speakers. i've written much about it previously. massed strings are alive and real sounding.......appropriate to the music. each recording has it's own message.

my recollection from my room tuning (in 2015) was as i closed in on the end point, it was very interesting how better bass also made the highs smooth out and fill in. when i would turn off the bass towers the highs also diminished and became less real. evidently the proper overtones in the bottom octaves were quite essential to overall balance.

the last few days i've been playing a 96/24 Quboz streaming 19 hour, 27 minute file of the complete Shostakovich Symphonies; Concertos; Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk District; Boston Symphony Orch. i keep telling myself i'm going to change it to something else but the music is just so good. the string tone is magical to my ears.

got it playing somewhat loud for me.......quite the ride.

call me if you care to talk about the MM7 set-up.

 

[wil]

i feel like i have figured out massed strings with MM7's in my room; OTOH J.R. Bosclair was here in my room a year ago and seemed to enjoy it, but who knows what he was really thinking.

my favorite and most played music is String Quartets and Quintets.

the speaker is easily able to handle complex large scale music with massed strings. but getting the room to the point of being able to be cohesive at high SPL's is a challenge that took me many years to accomplish, including a two day visit from Kevin Malmgren the speaker designer, along the way. the MM7's move so much air that it is a handful to get right. but the payoff is worth it.

Wil; i can't recall now if your MM7's have the full height bass towers, or the half height?

retaining tonal rightness, along with weight, presence and scale for me was a matter of fine tuning my room along with the speakers. i've written much about it previously. massed strings are alive and real sounding.......appropriate to the music. each recording has it's own message.

my recollection from my room tuning (in 2015) was as i closed in on the end point, it was very interesting how better bass also made the highs smooth out and fill in. when i would turn off the bass towers the highs also diminished and became less real. evidently the proper overtones in the bottom octaves were quite essential to overall balance.

the last few days i've been playing a 96/24 Quboz streaming 19 hour, 27 minute file of the complete Shostakovich Symphonies; Concertos; Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk District; Boston Symphony Orch. i keep telling myself i'm going to change it to something else but the music is just so good. the string tone is magical to my ears.

got it playing somewhat loud for me.......quite the ride.

call me if you care to talk about the MM7 set-up.

Thank Mike, I will take advantage of your offer!

Interesting, that you’re currently listening to Shostakovich. Once I finish my dive into the Mahler symphonies, that’s my next planned excursion!

I’m 100% sure JR was completely sincere and enjoying your system!

I have the half subtowers. With a swarm, I probably would not be able to integrate those towers, but that remains to be seen for sure.

Smoothing out the occasional strident upper frequencies of massed violins with high energy/spl large orchestra music is definitely a dream at this point.

 

[wil]

i feel like i have figured out massed strings with MM7's in my room; OTOH J.R. Bosclair was here in my room a year ago and seemed to enjoy it, but who knows what he was really thinking.

my favorite and most played music is String Quartets and Quintets.

the speaker is easily able to handle complex large scale music with massed strings. but getting the room to the point of being able to be cohesive at high SPL's is a challenge that took me many years to accomplish, including a two day visit from Kevin Malmgren the speaker designer, along the way. the MM7's move so much air that it is a handful to get right. but the payoff is worth it.

Wil; i can't recall now if your MM7's have the full height bass towers, or the half height?

retaining tonal rightness, along with weight, presence and scale for me was a matter of fine tuning my room along with the speakers. i've written much about it previously. massed strings are alive and real sounding.......appropriate to the music. each recording has it's own message.

my recollection from my room tuning (in 2015) was as i closed in on the end point, it was very interesting how better bass also made the highs smooth out and fill in. when i would turn off the bass towers the highs also diminished and became less real. evidently the proper overtones in the bottom octaves were quite essential to overall balance.

the last few days i've been playing a 96/24 Quboz streaming 19 hour, 27 minute file of the complete Shostakovich Symphonies; Concertos; Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk District; Boston Symphony Orch. i keep telling myself i'm going to change it to something else but the music is just so good. the string tone is magical to my ears.

got it playing somewhat loud for me.......quite the ride.

call me if you care to talk about the MM7 set-up.

Is that Shostakovich DGG with Andris Nelsons? I just listened to #1. It’s a good recording. Only two short periods (about 5 seconds each) in the 2nd 3rd movements that had some glare.

 

[LL21]

Is that Shostakovich DGG with Andris Nelsons? I just listened to #1. It’s a good recording. Only two short periods (about 5 seconds each) in the 2nd 3rd movements that had some glare.

Nice recordings, those. Musically, I like the Kitajenko series, and have Tughan Sokhiev (5th) having discovered him after finding that his Mussorgsky Pictures is undoubtedly my favorite. Have the Gergiev 5th and Haitnick 8th along with Ormandy 1st.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Is that Shostakovich DGG with Andris Nelsons? I just listened to #1. It’s a good recording. Only two short periods (about 5 seconds each) in the 2nd 3rd movements that had some glare.

yes. not noticing any glare so far. on #9 so far.

when i get a chance, i will revisit the 1st and see if i hear any.

 

[Macattack]

On a related note but different ‘plane’, I recently changed out the last meter ethernet cable that connects my last switch to my server. Moving from a Supra Cat8+ to a Wireworld Platinum 10.

The resolution of massed strings was what sold me on the change. Playing music from Qobuz, the WW Plat 10 easily resolved more. Complex symphonic crescendos were very clearly better as was the soundstage depth and inner detail.

Geesh, an Ethernet cable.