The Sound of Analog, the Sound of Digital

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,017
13,346
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA
On his PS Audio blog today Paul McGowan posted a piece titled: "The meaning of analog." Paul writes: "There’s no such thing as the sound of analog and digital. They are antiquated terms . . ."

Paul of course is not disputing the existence of the different technologies of analog recording and digital recording, or of the existence of mechanical and electronic differences between analog playback systems and digital playback systems. I believe he is suggesting that whatever the mechanical or electronic differences between how analog music and digital music are created and played back, it is antiquated to think about or to describe a sound as being inherently analog or inherently digital.

What do you think about this?

Is Paul correct in your view?

Are (the sound of) "analog" and (the sound of) "digital" antiquated terms? studio.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,601
5,411
1,278
E. England
Basically, the more I've got my analog right, the more it's got close to matching the undoubted strengths of digital where digital is strongest.
The more I've got my digital right, the more it's got close to matching the undoubted strengths of analog where analog is strongest.
Now I listen to my analog that is way past any previous level I've had and don't think about digital.
Now I listen to my digital that is way past any previous level I've had and don't think about analog.
My current tt rig and cdp don't sound like any I've had in the past.
More and more I'm less and less sure that there is strictly an "analog" sound and a "digital" one.
But plenty of "good" and "bad" analog and digital.
 

Kingsrule

VIP/Donor
Feb 3, 2011
1,432
681
1,430
Paul is spot on. I have been easily saying this for the last year. Its all about the sound of real, no matter if source is analogue or digital
 

cjfrbw

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
3,323
1,313
1,730
Pleasanton, CA
Kinna interesting. I am probably one of the only people to wear out an SME turntable. The 30/2 has been sent to the shop, likely the main bearing is worn out. It started stalling and the platter holder scrapes onto the top plate. It’s likely 20 years old at this point.

When we got the Santa Cruz place, I got a Sony PS X70 DD from eBay for $250 (42 years old, all original). Never played it much over there due to neighbor proximity. eventually just brought it back to add to my audio warehouse pile. I thought about just giving it away. It was the second from the top down from the legendary Sony PS X9 (several on ebay now, still sell for thousands up depending on renovation and condition), and uses a curved micro seiki arm.

However, I decided to put PS X70 on the SME altar. I went into my ‘vinyl drawer’ a couple of weeks ago, there was a small oil spill, and while cleaning it out, I found my ancient Ortofon Kontrapunkt a, a cartridge that I used for a few months when I first got back into vinyl on an SME 10 turntable (almost 20 years ago??). I had completely forgotten about it. I paid $180 for it wholesale from a Hong Kong wholesaler and used it before ‘moving up’ in MC cartridge quality. They still make them, and they now cost $600 or so.

Anyway, I put the Sony PS X70 on the SME altar to have a placeholder, installed the Kontrapunkt a, plugged it into the Allnic head amp. Lo and behold, vivid, dynamic sound that is very high end. I was shocked.

The turntable arm is medium to high effective mass, the cartridge is low compliance, so the sound is ‘tape like’, dense tonalities. i am playing records that I haven’t for a while and shake my head at how good it sounds.

That’s what I think of as ‘analog’. It is unlike any digital type experience (not that there is ANYTHING wrong with today’s great digital), but it is rich, vibrant, detailed, dense, rocking midrange and lower midrange, huge imaging etc.

It’s also nice to have this kind and quality of vinyl presentation albeit with bargain vintage stuff while I await the fate of the SME 30/2 at the hands of the repair apparatus.
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,679
4,467
963
Greater Boston

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,679
4,467
963
Greater Boston
If we are being objective it might be more precise to talk about the difference between the 'noise of analog' vs 'the noise of digital'...

Sure, this used to be a big issue, hence digital in the early days sounding so different from and so much worse than analog. Unlike with analog, the noise envelope considerably changed with the musical signal, with the culprit being substantial amounts of jitter and lousy filtering. In computer audio of course you can still have other problems of (RF) noise, but that way of playing back music has also become better and better.

Nowadays things are mostly fine to my ears on the digital noise level, at least when it comes to the better playback, so this whole issue more or less falls away, in my view.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
(...) Is Paul correct in your view?

Are (the sound of) "analog" and (the sound of) "digital" antiquated terms?

Ron,

Unfortunately you are hiding the true sense of Paul words when you cut what I think is the essential part of his post. What Paul pretends to say is that modern digital is on par with or surpasses analog, something that many people will disagree. :oops:

“That sounds so…analog.” What does that actually mean? And what are we saying when we suggest something sounds “digital”.
I wonder if our terminology isn’t out of date. We offer praise when a digital reproduction sounds analog yet we know analog has limitations that digital does not.
I would never suggest that while listening to a live performance that it sounds either analog or digital. I might say it sounds natural, perhaps full and rich, but analog or digital? Never.
I wonder why then we cling to these antiquated terms. And I am not pointing the finger at anyone but me. I am a big offender and want to work on my language at every opportunity. "
There’s no such thing as the sound of analog and digital. They are antiquated terms and I can do better. (end of quote) https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/the-meaning-of-analog/


Antiquated or not , the sound of analog and the sound of digital will always exist. They are different media, with fundamental differences in measurable (objective) parameters that result in different types of recordings.
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
4,040
995
Utah
On his PS Audio blog today Paul McGowan posted a piece titled: "The meaning of analog." Paul writes: "There’s no such thing as the sound of analog and digital. They are antiquated terms . . ."

Paul of course is not disputing the existence of the different technologies of analog recording and digital recording, or of the existence of mechanical and electronic differences between analog playback systems and digital playback systems. I believe he is suggesting that whatever the mechanical or electronic differences between how analog music and digital music are created and played back, it is antiquated to think about or to describe a sound as being inherently analog or inherently digital.

What do you think about this?

Is Paul correct in your view?

Are (the sound of) "analog" and (the sound of) "digital" antiquated terms?
I haven't read Paul's blog and don't know the context but going by your post that statement holds as much water as all amplifiers sound the same. The only instance I see that happening is when comparing equally crappy ones from each group, then it doesn't make a difference :).

david
 

Ovenmitt

Well-Known Member
Nov 21, 2017
285
406
170
If we are being objective it might be more precise to talk about the difference between the 'noise of analog' vs 'the noise of digital'...

I agree Erik. It comes down to a question of signal to noise; the absence of noise in nature doesn’t exist. Humans don’t perceive sound this way. If anyone’s ever been in an anechoic chamber you know how disconcerting and unnatural it feels.

I highly recommend the book “The new analog” by Damon Krukowski. It’s a great take on the subject: https://scholarlykitchen.sspnet.org/2017/11/14/book-review-new-analog-damon-krukowski/
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,017
13,346
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA
Ron,

Unfortunately you are hiding the true sense of Paul words when you cut what I think is the essential part of his post. What Paul pretends to say is that modern digital is on par with or surpasses analog, something that many people will disagree. :oops:

“That sounds so…analog.” What does that actually mean? And what are we saying when we suggest something sounds “digital”.
I wonder if our terminology isn’t out of date. We offer praise when a digital reproduction sounds analog yet we know analog has limitations that digital does not.
I would never suggest that while listening to a live performance that it sounds either analog or digital. I might say it sounds natural, perhaps full and rich, but analog or digital? Never.
I wonder why then we cling to these antiquated terms. And I am not pointing the finger at anyone but me. I am a big offender and want to work on my language at every opportunity. "
There’s no such thing as the sound of analog and digital. They are antiquated terms and I can do better. (end of quote) https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/the-meaning-of-analog/


. . .

I think there are two points embodied in Paul's post. I did not include the point you are focusing as I wanted to be careful to give Paul the benefit of the doubt on that controversial view of his. I felt that was a related but separate issue, and I wanted to keep Paul's main assertion simple in an attempt to avoid re-litigating the conventional analog versus digital point on which you are focusing.

However, I would not disagree with the view that it is impossible to avoid collapsing these two points into one. :)
 
Last edited:

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,467
11,363
4,410
and an orange is just an orange.

i taste a good orange and it's great. then i have a good organic orange and it's on a whole different level. forget the chemistry, just from a sensual perspective they are really different.

would anyone disagree?

from one perspective they are the same, from another......completely different. the non-organic orange is likely to be more uniform, and maybe bigger too. the organic orange will have natural variances and differences in color and texture. some will have more seeds than others. that's nature for you. and if you never really had a good organic orange how would you understand what the significance might be?

Paul McGowan is running a business and he knows his customers, and what products they want from him. in that perspective it makes sense. it's not controversial, it's business. and that's about it about that.

if i were selling non-organic oranges i might be tempted to minimize the differences between what my customers buy from me, and alternative higher quality better tasting, healthier, products.
 
Last edited:

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 3, 2014
5,777
6,818
1,400
the Upper Midwest
and an orange is just an orange.

i taste a good orange and it's great. then i have a good organic orange and it's on a whole different level. forget the chemistry, just from a sensual perspective they are really different.

would anyone disagree?

from one perspective they are the same, from another......completely different. the non-organic orange is likely to be more uniform, and maybe bigger too. the organic orange will have natural variances and differences in color and texture. some will have more seeds than others. that's nature for you. and if you never really had a good organic orange how would you understand what the significance might be?

Paul McGowan is running a business and he knows his customers, and what products they want from him. in that perspective it makes sense. it's not controversial, it's business. and that's about it about that.

if i were selling non-organic oranges i might be tempted to minimize the differences between what my customers buy from me, and alternative higher quality better tasting, healthier, products.

Mike - that is a very compelling and clever analogy. I can imagine the retort: "if you take a chemical analysis of the two oranges, they are indistinguishable." Which wholly misses the point.

McGowan wants to suggest that the number of people who can tell the difference is dwindling and we no longer need words to tell them apart. But I wonder why this is important. Who is it that is compelled to make this case and why? You hit the nail on answering that. What is he selling.

The sort of technological overthrow that indicates a real change such as the downfall of the CRT in the television industry has not occurred in the audio realm, at least in the high-end region. But few tried to claim the CRT vs digital TV were visually indistinguishable. Which is what McGowan seems to try under the charade of talking about the antiquation of vocabulary.

When McG writes: "I would never suggest that while listening to a live performance that it sounds either analog or digital. I might say it sounds natural, perhaps full and rich, but analog or digital? Never." This the equivalent of the magician's attempt at misdirection while he swaps reality and reproduction behind his back.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Tim Link

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
4,040
995
Utah
Mike - that is a very compelling and clever analogy. I can imagine the retort: "if you take a chemical analysis of the two oranges, they are indistinguishable." Which wholly misses the point.

McGowan wants to suggest that the number of people who can tell the difference is dwindling and we no longer need words to tell them apart. But I wonder why this is important. Who is it that is compelled to make this case and why? You hit the nail on answering that. What is he selling.

The sort of technological overthrow that indicates a real change such as the downfall of the CRT in the television industry has not occurred in the audio realm, at least in the high-end region. But few tried to claim the CRT vs digital TV were visually indistinguishable. Which is what McGowan seems to try under the charade of talking about the antiquation of vocabulary.

When McG writes: "I would never suggest that while listening to a live performance that it sounds either analog or digital. I might say it sounds natural, perhaps full and rich, but analog or digital? Never." This the equivalent of the magician's attempt at misdirection while he swaps reality and reproduction behind his back.

It's actually simpler than that Tim, use one of his amps and run everything off the regenerators he makes and I guarantee that you wont hear a major difference between analog, digital, tube or anything else either. Those IRS's have their own massive coloration for a final topping :)! He's on the money in the context of his system.

david
 
Last edited:

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 3, 2014
5,777
6,818
1,400
the Upper Midwest
It's actually simpler than that Tim, use one of his amps and run everything off the regenerators he makes and I guarantee that you wont hear a major difference between analog, digital, tube or anything else. Those Genesis One's have their own massive coloration for a final topping :)! He's on the money in the context of his system.

david

ooooooh ... that's gonna leave a mark. ;)
 

Tango

VIP/Donor
Mar 12, 2017
4,938
6,268
950
Bangkok
and an orange is just an orange.

i taste a good orange and it's great. then i have a good organic orange and it's on a whole different level. forget the chemistry, just from a sensual perspective they are really different.

would anyone disagree?

from one perspective they are the same, from another......completely different. the non-organic orange is likely to be more uniform, and maybe bigger too. the organic orange will have natural variances and differences in color and texture. some will have more seeds than others. that's nature for you. and if you never really had a good organic orange how would you understand what the significance might be?

Paul McGowan is running a business and he knows his customers, and what products they want from him. in that perspective it makes sense. it's not controversial, it's business. and that's about it about that.

if i were selling non-organic oranges i might be tempted to minimize the differences between what my customers buy from me, and alternative higher quality better tasting, healthier, products.
Organic orange cannot taste as good as inorganic orange that uses my nutritional program sir. :D As far as orange concern, I have never tasted a good orange in US. They are too sour for my preference. From the way and style you described sound, you are a romantic Mike. You should like Mandarin orange. There is sweetness to it.
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,679
4,467
963
Greater Boston
Mike - that is a very compelling and clever analogy. I can imagine the retort: "if you take a chemical analysis of the two oranges, they are indistinguishable." Which wholly misses the point.

McGowan wants to suggest that the number of people who can tell the difference is dwindling and we no longer need words to tell them apart. But I wonder why this is important. Who is it that is compelled to make this case and why? You hit the nail on answering that. What is he selling.

The sort of technological overthrow that indicates a real change such as the downfall of the CRT in the television industry has not occurred in the audio realm, at least in the high-end region. But few tried to claim the CRT vs digital TV were visually indistinguishable. Which is what McGowan seems to try under the charade of talking about the antiquation of vocabulary.

You and Mike commit a genetic fallacy of argumentation, discrediting a claim based on its source (and presumed intent, following from that).

I never thought about Paul's business, I was thinking about the argument itself. Paul is right, in my view.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing