The State of High End Audio

I have to say, this flies in the face of everything I know, every speaker manual I have read (including most of ML's), and the two "audio setup" books that I have read. Don't wanna go into a deep argument, so I'll say I am actually thankful of this type of guidance given in online forums, books and manuals. Here's an excerpt from an ML manual:





Never been my experience, and on the contrary, imaging suffers significantly with side reflections. Regarding both of these attributes, I often demo at home (where my speakers are far from side walls) a specific track that has a helicopter flying from the far right to the far left, about 3m away!, and ends up perpendicular to the listener facing the speakers, before it extinguishes.

ack is right imo. A lack of 1st reflections can make the soundstage open up to an unbelievable extent if you've never experienced it. If you want a soundstage that is not defined by the boundaries of your room, you need to remove reflections from these surfaces and listen to a sound with more direct vs reflected sound. Only then will your room disappear.

The fact that Harman has found wide dispersion to be preferred is simply due to one thing... acclimation and lack of experience in the listeners stating their preferences.
 
I find rear wall to be the most offensive, if the wall is too close. That's most small and some medium sized rooms. It doesn't always screw up imaging but it makes the music sound harsh for some reason.

Room treatment at shows is very smart. A bunch of vendors at RMAF started to do it after a couple guys at AudioCircle really got on them, and were giving their reviews accounting for it. I mean why not do it? You're trying to show people the capability of your equipment. Granted some speakers need more, others less.

Wish I had a comment on side reflections... I've lived with them forever.
 
Yes but that was my point, it is complicated to set up, like a TT, so an EQ experience in one room or system cannot be generalized.

Dirfferent EQ packages vary in terms of how complex they are. I do not consider Dirac, for example, anywhere remotely as difficult to learn and set up as a turntable. A 7.1 calibration takes me about 20 minutes, though I admit I have had years of experience with Room EQ. Stereo would take less than half that time. Audyssey (I do not recommend it) is also out there in probably hundreds of thousands of HT AVR's for many first time users. Yes, of course, some of those are befuddled by it and never set it up properly, but many others have and like what it does.

Others, like Acourate for example, have many more features and parameters you can adjust, and are therefore inevitably more complex, more difficult to learn initially and to use. But, dallasjustice has reported great success with Acourate and Audiolense in achieving his very sophisticated EQ, also employing independent mike measurements to further refine the EQ adjustments in a very detailed and precise fashion. Nonetheless, tools like these likely are not good places for a first timer to start. It all depends on what you want to try to achieve, how much tweaking and fine tuning you want to do, etc. I am not personally interested in that more sophisticated approach. What I have with a simpler approach is quite satisfying, and leaves me wanting to kick back and listen to music rather than tweak my system.


I think that the basic concept of substantial improvement via correction of bass room mode issues can be generalized to any room using any decent EQ package properly applied. But, of course, not all rooms are going to sound identical after correction due to factors beyond EQ's correction abilities.

Aside from more control features and tweak-ability, are there big, audiophile-type differences between the better EQ software packages, much as there are between speakers, etc.? I doubt it, except when using full range EQ, the target curve chosen can have a major impact on the sonic result - voicing. Most decent packages allow you to tweak that or turn EQ off for selected frequency ranges. This is where things start to get complex and time consuming. You cannot just listen to one recording, as though they all sounded the same, and decide from that to adjust the target. You really have to get a sense from many different recordings just what EQ adjustments you might want to try. It is not a tone control which is easily adjusted from recording to recording. You would not buy a speaker based on one listen with one recording either. However, some tools allow quick and easy selection between target curves, including your own experimental ones, on the fly. Dirac does with up to four.

I have not found even that necessary, though. The stock, full range Dirac target curve (a.) sounds really terrific compared to no EQ on all my recordings, and (b.) is based on considerable research into listener preference assessments using good science. Dirac's curve is consistent with one empirically determined by B&K and it is also consistent with a famous comparative listener study of EQ target curves from years ago by Sean Olive, et. al., at Harman. There is generally good, consistent agreement across much of the industry on wide listener preference for a smooth, gently downward sloping target curve with increasing frequency.

Yes, it is quite easy for an inexperienced user to screw up an EQ mike calibration out of ignorance. Sonic results might be inferior as a consequence. Things like proper mike orientation, using a mike tripod on the floor or eliminating extraneous noise like HVAC systems all might not occur to a neophyte. But, it is not rocket science and these simple, logical basic things can be easily learned. I do not know of a good "EQ for Dummies" textbook on basic techniques. Pretty much all the basics can be covered by an experienced user in about a 5 minute initial verbal walk-through with someone else who has zero experience. Manufacturers seem not to provide that in any detail themselves. But, best practices for EQ can be found with a little digging.

So, applying EQ need not be as daunting as many seem to believe, given that you start with a user friendly tool. I am no youngster, no technophile. If I can learn it in my, ahem, senior years and teach it quickly to my senior friends, I think most anybody can master it. As Rodney said, we all would never be without it.
 
ack is right imo. A lack of 1st reflections can make the soundstage open up to an unbelievable extent if you've never experienced it. If you want a soundstage that is not defined by the boundaries of your room, you need to remove reflections from these surfaces and listen to a sound with more direct vs reflected sound. Only then will your room disappear.

The fact that Harman has found wide dispersion to be preferred is simply due to one thing... acclimation and lack of experience in the listeners stating their preferences.[
!
Keith.
 
Never been my experience, and on the contrary, imaging suffers significantly with side reflections. Regarding both of these attributes, I often demo at home (where my speakers are far from side walls) a specific track that has a helicopter flying from the far right to the far left, about 3m away!, and ends up perpendicular to the listener facing the speakers, before it extinguishes.

Apocalypse now - The doors - The end ack?
 
And neither do they have absorbers in the back (unlike the Neolith pictures you showed elsewhere);
Of course they do. That heave pleated curtain absorbs easily down to schroeder frequencies:

i-GZtvLSf.jpg


.. that doesn't mean they are correctly set up though, nor are they following their own manuals (reason I included their language). But that wouldn't be a first either for shows (lack of correct speaker set up), so I am dismissing this counter argument.
I am not here to defend what they say in their manuals either. I am just noting that in their rooms they did not attempt to absorb side reflections. Here is the manual for Neolith: https://www.martinlogan.com/pdf/manuals/manual-neolith.pdf

"The Side Walls
A good rule of thumb is to have the side walls as far away from
the speaker sides as possible. However, MartinLogan’s unique
controlled dispersion electrostatic transducer inherently minimizes
side wall reflections—a position as little as two feet or
less from the side walls often proves adequate. Sometimes, if
the system is bright or the imaging is not to your liking, and the
side walls are very near, try putting curtains or softening material
directly to the edge of each speaker.
An ideal side wall,
however, is no side wall at all."

Putting aside the last sentence, we see clearly that they are starting with the position of nothing on those walls. The last consideration there could be SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interference Response). That is, it is a statement with regards to close proximity for the walls creating comb filtering. It is a separate thing than what to do with side reflections which may not at all be part of the speaker boundary.

I have tried every set-up you can imagine. Your claims that side reflections are desirable is the first one I have actually ever seen.
That's strange because I have written extensively about it, so has Nyal, and I can provide countless references from literature, papers, etc.
 
Hi



After a long hiatus during which I have been using only headphones with great pleasure I must add and frankly an education in tonal purity. I am ready to jump back into speaker-based systems.

Frantz, what is missing from your headphone setup sonically? I have headphone geek friends who say some of the newer planar phones (HiFiMan HE1000) have them abandoning their reference rigs. I am sure there will be a DSP coming soon where you could dial in room distortions or even better the artifice of room correction software....;
 
Frantz, what is missing from your headphone setup sonically? I have headphone geek friends who say some of the newer planar phones (HiFiMan HE1000) have them abandoning their reference rigs. I am sure there will be a DSP coming soon where you could dial in room distortions or even better the artifice of room correction software....;

Ever heard of the Smyth Realizer? Been around a while too.
 
Of course they do. That heave pleated curtain absorbs easily down to schroeder frequencies:

i-GZtvLSf.jpg



I am not here to defend what they say in their manuals either. I am just noting that in their rooms they did not attempt to absorb side reflections. Here is the manual for Neolith: https://www.martinlogan.com/pdf/manuals/manual-neolith.pdf

Come on Amirm, don't build the straw man. They also have plants (fake by the look of them) to absorb a little more (maybe some diffusion too). ;)
 
ack is right imo. A lack of 1st reflections can make the soundstage open up to an unbelievable extent if you've never experienced it. If you want a soundstage that is not defined by the boundaries of your room, you need to remove reflections from these surfaces and listen to a sound with more direct vs reflected sound. Only then will your room disappear.

The fact that Harman has found wide dispersion to be preferred is simply due to one thing... acclimation and lack of experience in the listeners stating their preferences.

I agree with DaveC and ack. This is my experience, too. It makes me wonder if people who want 1st reflections interfering with the direct sound actually listen to live music. Just compare the sound of a violin on stage in a great hall to a violin being played in a small room where the walls are reflective.

First reflections also occur from the floor and ceiling. Are there many good listening rooms with hard tile floors?
 
I agree with DaveC and ack. This is my experience, too. It makes me wonder if people who want 1st reflections interfering with the direct sound actually listen to live music. Just compare the sound of a violin on stage in a great hall to a violin being played in a small room where the walls are reflective.

First reflections also occur from the floor and ceiling. Are there many good listening rooms with hard tile floors?
Depending where you sit most of the sound you hear at a live concert will be reflected.
Keith.
 
Depending where you sit most of the sound you hear at a live concert will be reflected.
Keith.

First reflections Will be much more attenuated and later in a big room..different case to the average listening rom.
 
I like a bit of room in my room, because more often than not, there is no room in the recordings I listen to. And my experience is the opposite of DaveC's, I've heard the best staging from bipoles, dipoles, open baffles, and just plain boxes with excellent off axis response. I've heard better pinpoint imaging from minimized first reflections, but that's a different thing.

In my view though this, the speakers, is place to make choices, to find your preference. Up to this point I'll stick to clean, quiet, linear and powerful. Then I'll find my bliss in the speakers and the room.

Tim
 
I like a bit of room in my room, because more often than not, there is no room in the recordings I listen to. And my experience is the opposite of DaveC's, I've heard the best staging from bipoles, dipoles, open baffles, and just plain boxes with excellent off axis response. I've heard better pinpoint imaging from minimized first reflections, but that's a different thing.

In my view though this, the speakers, is place to make choices, to find your preference. Up to this point I'll stick to clean, quiet, linear and powerful. Then I'll find my bliss in the speakers and the room.

Tim

Yeah, Dipoles can make a decent soundstage, but usually one that's confined to the room because of the backwave. If you want an expansive/immersive soundstage that doesn't sound like it's confined to your room you need to limit close reflections. Simple as that... and the unfortunate truth is, not everyone has experienced it. Once you do it's an like an epiphany.
 
I agree with DaveC and ack. This is my experience, too. It makes me wonder if people who want 1st reflections interfering with the direct sound actually listen to live music.
It is the opposite actually. In a concert hall unless you are sitting way close to the orchestra, *all* that you hear are reflections. Indeed it is a fully diffused sound field and hence the reason its bass performance doesn't have the wild swings we get in our smaller rooms.

And which live music presentation has sound coming out of two points, i.e. two loudspeakers?

Just compare the sound of a violin on stage in a great hall to a violin being played in a small room where the walls are reflective.
You will never get that diffused sound field in your small listening room. Your relationship to direct sound is far larger in a home listening space than in a performance hall. No way, no how can you emulate that in any way in your home.

First reflections also occur from the floor and ceiling. Are there many good listening rooms with hard tile floors?
No. Floor reflections are not good and should be absorbed above 500 Hz. They cause colorations. Ceiling reflections are debatable. You can use a diffuser to send them to the side wall to help with widening of the source image.
 
Good article Amir, I think you're onto something when you said that recording engineers generally don't like 1st reflections... because of their experience, they can hear the distortions involved. I think this is the case with the general public too, once they can recognize the ill effects of 1st reflections, and hear the benefits of eliminating them, they want them gone. In general... maybe there are some who like them but I'd hazard a guess that most people really don't, it's just acclimation.
 
Good article Amir, I think you're onto something when you said that recording engineers generally don't like 1st reflections... because of their experience, they can hear the distortions involved. I think this is the case with the general public too, once they can recognize the ill effects of 1st reflections, and hear the benefits of eliminating them, they want them gone. In general... maybe there are some who like them but I'd hazard a guess that most people really don't, it's just acclimation.
Recording /mastering engineers are creating music, we are reproducing it ,completely different.
If you have good speakers with smooth and even off axis behaviour then lateral reflections can add to the send of spaciousness , reflections from the floor and ceiling are not beneficial , you can think about why .
Keith.
 
...you can think about why .
Keith.

Kinda pretentious and condescending coming from someone who obviously has no grasp of any technical subject we've ever discussed.

Maybe you should think about why you have opinions on subjects you don't grasp?
 

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