The Sumiko setup

[treitz3]

Hello, Bill. I can understand your frustration. You might want to try and PM metaphacts and see if he will respond. If not, I would try to find someone who has taken the MASTERS course and see if they will assist you. That is the best advice that I can offer you. I have read online that some folks whom have taken this course might offer their services for a fee. Anyone can find tidbits of information about certain aspects of the Sumiko setup online every once in a while. It just takes a bit of time and research.

A good alternative would be to use the Cardas Golden Cuboid method. http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup

Tom

 

[Rutgar]

Hi Tom. Yes, you're correct that there are tidbits of the Sumiko setup online. I believe I have read through most of them. I mostly just had to take a 'jab' at all of the silly secrecy.

On a side note, one of the more interesting speaker setup methods I have found, is sort of a 'reverse Sumiko'. In that it uses the same aspects, but requires placing one of the loudspeaker at the listening position, and then have the listener sit in a chair where the speaker would be placed, and then make slight adjustments to the chair in the different positions while listening for the same audio attributes as described in the Sumiko setup. I haven't tried it myself (my speakers weigh about 600 pounds). Supposedly the beauty of this method, is that the sonics work the same (in reverse), and that it is much easier to move yourself around on a chair, looking for that perfect spot. Once found, simply put that speaker where the chair is, and then do the same thing with the other speaker (placing it at the listening position).

 

[GaryProtein]

Ah-hah. I thought so. Rutgar, I agree with you completely. The speaker setup protocols aren't exactly classified national secrets.

TOM6897, if you follow this, you will do a superb job on your own (with an assistant to help move the speakers while you listen.)


I wrote this post last night but didn't post it because I wanted to hear what would transpire without my tainting people's thoughts. So here it is:

Believe me, there isn't ANYTHING Sumiko knows that we don't.

I have tried to get a straight answer myself in other fora. It appears that the Sumiko set-up is "a secret" and they aren't telling.

NONE of the speaker set-up methods are the word of god and all of them are just guidelines which require you to do a little experimentation for the best placement in your room.

I really hate when people say they have a terrific technique to perform an activity and won't educate the rest of us.

Just to throw a wrench in the machinery, one could suppose that the technique posted at the beginning of this thread is pretty close to what they do and they are just denying it. That technique is posted in fairly similar terms in a few places on the internet.

One other thing, people who have had it done say they don't know what the technician did or they weren't in the room when it was done. How could someone be an avid audiophile, buy a supposedly excellent product, pay to have this done and not be interested enough to watch and listen to see what is done????? Do they sign a non-disclosure agreement before the set-up is done?

I am certain there is a great deal of mystique in their procedure which is most certainly based on the same ideas as the Cardas, Audio Physic, Wilson, TAD, Thiel, Martin Logan and Genesis speaker set-up techniques which are freely posted and readily available on the internet. Just google "Cardas speaker setup", "Wilson speaker setup", etc and you will be given more than ample information on how to set up your speakers.

It isn't like I am asking to know exactly HOW they build their speakers because I am not interested in doing that, but how they decide to position speakers in a room MY room should be freely available information. Keeping it a secret and their setting up someone's speakers in their room just seems like voodoo. I'm not saying they can't get a good result, but they won't do any better than anyone else who has a good ear and can tell the difference as a speaker is moved around the room.


Here are excellent links for speaker setups. Believe me, YOU DON'T NEED THE SUMIKO SETUP.



TAD speaker set-up

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?8350-TAD-owners-speaker-setup


THIEL speaker setup

http://thielaudio.com/THIEL_Site05/Pages/FAQs/faqplacement.html


MARTIN LOGAN speaker setup

http://www.martinlogan.com/pdf/manuals/manual_scenario.pdf


GENESIS ADVANCED TECHNOLOGIES speaker setup

http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/whitepaper/Genesis_Loudspeaker_Setup_Procedure.pdf


AUDIO PHYSIC speaker setup

http://audiophysic.de/aufstellung/beispiel_e.html


WILSON AUDIO speaker set-up

http://www.wilsonaudio.com/pdf/manual_soph2.pdf


CARDAS speaker setup

http://www.cardas.com/pdf/roomsetup.pdf


EVOLUTION ACOUSTICS speaker setup

http://www.evolutionacoustics.com/support/speaker-placement/
and go to the support drop down


There isn't anything magical that sumiko knows that all these other people don't.

 

[microstrip]

Living in Europe and owning Aida speakers I also find this thread frustrating, as our distributors do not carry this type of setup.

I understand that the complex MASTERS process is Sumiko proprietary, and an added value to the services they supply to their loyal customers. Perhaps some day Bill (metaphacts) will come to Europe and accepts an invitation to have dinner ...

 

[steve williams]

I'm curious as to how Tom was lucky enough to be the sole beneficiary of this Masters technique.

 

[mep]

I'm curious as to how Tom was lucky enough to be the sole beneficiary of this Masters technique.

Because he asked?

 

[steve williams]

I guess if we all ask and are told that it is proprietary then it is still OK

 

[GaryProtein]

I asked a few months ago and was told it is proprietary information--a secret.

 

[mep]

Did any of you guys send a PM like Tom did?

 

[microstrip]

I'm curious as to how Tom was lucky enough to be the sole beneficiary of this Masters technique.

May be he wrote the PM in green ...

 

[treitz3]

Oh dear. It seems as if this thread has morphed into something that was purely not my intention. Let me be the first to say that I am not any sole beneficiary and that I, in fact, do not know the full extent of this Sumiko setup to this day. A PM was sent to me from Bill, offering pointers....which included what the original post had incorrectly offered. With Bill's permission, I would be happy to disclose anything and everything that was sent to me but I am a man of my word and in no circumstances will I break my word.

Truth be told, I am in the same boat as all of you with only a tidbit more of information. In fact, I would propose that I don't know but a small fraction of what was taught during the three day MASTERS class. I thank Bill profusely for notifying me that the original post was in fact, incorrect. I also thank him for pointing out the differences between what are parts of the Sumiko setup and what was found by me years ago and subsequently posted on many forums. Part of the reasoning behind me posting this on various forums over the years was to gain more insight into the procedure. The only thing I knew years ago is what a good friend of mine [John] had told me during a rather lengthy discussion at his now defunct audio shop here in Charlotte. He had told me about this thing called a "Sumiko" setup.

So, I went online and was able [through another friend] to locate what is quoted on the first post of this thread. I was hoping to get the discussions rolling about this particular setup protocol. What I wasn't expecting was the information that was provided to me was false. I actually thought it was the Sumiko setup. It turns out that this is not the case, even though I have received positive feedback from folks who have tried what was found. Let me repeat this just for clarity's sake. I do not have the MASTERS Sumiko setup. I am not exclusive and I am not a sole beneficiary of proprietary information.

My intent was to further the discussions of the Sumiko set up, as John had talked very highly of this protocol. John is one of the few ears in Charlotte that I trust, so I took what he had told me that afternoon with a great deal of interest. Look gentlemen, I feel as if I am stuck between a rock and a hard place. You are taking for granted that I have information that I do not possess because a member of this forum was gracious to offer me a PM.

Tom

 

[steve williams]

I'm just yanking your chain Tom

 

[jap]

More info on Master Set:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64320.0

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=65908.0

 

[microstrip]

(...) Look gentlemen, I feel as if I am stuck between a rock and a hard place. You are taking for granted that I have information that I do not possess because a member of this forum was gracious to offer me a PM.

Tom

Tom,

We understand it. If I had the faintest idea you really knew the MASTERS procedure I would have not teased with the situation in an open forum - instead I would have sent a PM with an invitation to spend a weekend in a sunny beach in Portugal, with a small stay in my listening room ...

 

[GaryProtein]

A little transparency in the part of Sumiko would have been appreciated, but they choose to have people think they have something "magical" or know something that others do not and that certainly is NOT the case.

The fact that some people who purchased their speakers initially set them up in a poor fashion and then got professional help from a dealer does not imply that they know any more than other informed people.

Finally there is more than one road to Rome, and we DON'T have to take a toll road when there are many other easily accessible roads for free that are just as good if not better.

 

[Rutgar]

A little transparency in the part of Sumiko would have been appreciated, but they choose to have people think they have something "magical" or know something that others do not and that certainly is NOT the case.

The fact that some people who purchased their speakers initially set them up in a poor fashion and then got professional help from a dealer does not imply that they know any more than other informed people.

Finally there is more than one road to Rome, and we DON'T have to take a toll road when there are many other easily accessible roads for free that are just as good if not better.

I agree Gary. The circular links to no where, the innuendo, the 'almost' information, about the 'Sumiko Method', borders on mythical. And when something 'concrete' is posted somewhere, it gets poo-poo'd as inacurate. As I indicated earlier, it's just speaker positioning. Why all the mystique?

 

[Rutgar]

Just to add another link, I believe this one goes direct to the actual method, posted on Audiocircle (as opposed to discussions about...):

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=60819.0

Of course, I have no idea the accuracy of the posted method.

 

[A.wayne]

Hello, tom6897 and welcome to the WBF. Unfortunately, this topic can not be discussed on this or any forum. It is proprietary information, hence the dead end of this thread. It does turn out that what I had found online years ago is not what the Sumiko setup calls for. They don't publish the MASTERS methodology because it is an added value they teach to Sumiko dealers. Bill [metaphacts] was kind enough to offer some hints and point me in the right direction to find out more about the Sumiko setup but I can not and will not disclose anything I might have learned. I will say this, one thing that will assist you with this is to find someone that has actually taken this course and hope that they are willing to take the time to show you some of what is taught at the 3-day MASTERS class.

I apologize but I am bound by my word to not disclose.

Tom

So our only hope is for you to pass this on to AS , with a note saying not for release .....

 

[Bill Hart]

I think you guys are being a little unfair. First, if and to the extent this IS public knowledge, you can knock yourselves out by resorting to the publicly available literature. But, to the extent this company has their own methodology which yields results, they are entitled to treat it as proprietary, so long as it has not already been publicly disclosed or made available to others in its entirety without appropriate confidentiality restrictions. And if the publicly available descriptions of the process are inaccurate, and don't disclose the real processes or their nuances, then the real process remains proprietary notwithstanding public disclosure of some bastardized version of it.
I don't think it is incumbent on the manufacturer to 'correct' this by fully disclosing what they consider to be proprietary. Is it proprietary? It may well be- trade secrets, 'know how' and other confidential info, ranging from how to make a cheesecake to how to tune an old carburetor, can all be protected as 'confidential information' under US law if not known in its unitary whole by the relevant trade or public.
As to whether that makes business sense, that's a different question. I guess I come down on the side of: hey, this is something that a manufacturer offers as part of 'buying into' its brand. Presumably, this Master class (and I know nothing about it, in substance, other than what i have read on the Net), trains dealers to do proper set-ups of the manufacturers' equipment.
I don't see that the manufacturer has an obligation to provide that information to the general public; to the contrary, they can treat it as a 'value added' proposition for customers, who know they will benefit from good set-up if the product is purchased from an authorized/trained dealer.
I'm not shilling for Sonus Faber, either. In fact, I was somewhat critical of what I heard in NY in the Spring and a couple people informed me that the overdamped room was likely the factor, not the speaker or the 'set up' per se.

 

[microstrip]

(...) I'm not shilling for Sonus Faber, either. In fact, I was somewhat critical of what I heard in NY in the Spring and a couple people informed me that the overdamped room was likely the factor, not the speaker or the 'set up' per se.

AFAIK, the method is proprietary of Sumiko, the US distributor of Sonus faber and many other brands, not of the Sonus faber brand. Distributors and dealers in other countries do not use this method of setup.