The Time Has Come .....I've gone solar

[microstrip]

I guess I must be biased. I work for the energy company...nope, I work for the solar company...nope, I own a solar powered system...AH, that's what makes me biased, yes??
If its not a question of noise, then it must be coloration...except it isn't :roll eyes:

Micro inverters are intrinsically noisy---where did you get that from?? That's why some people find they improve SQ???

Btw, do you happen to own a solar powered residence in Portugal?? Or, are you just postulating, per usual

As is it is becoming usual, you troll and insult when you have nothing factual or new to add to the threads.

I am trying to expose and debate technical aspects relevant to audio, something you are not able to understand. An inverter is a noise source, independently of being micro or macro. And some mains quality enhancers sold in the high-end are just controlled noise sources. FIY, I have built inverters forty years ago, the old reference book Art of Electronics had schematics of them, and most PS Audio regenerators have high quality inverters ...

 

[steve williams]

As is it is becoming usual, you troll and insult when you have nothing factual or new to add to the threads.

I am trying to expose and debate technical aspects, something you are not able to understand. An inverter is a noise source, independently of being micro or macro. And some mains quality enhancers sold in the high-end are just controlled noise sources. FIY, I have built inverters forty years ago, the old reference book Art of Electronics had schematics of them, and most PS Audio regenerators have high quality inverters ...

In fairness I don't believe Davey was trolling but rather speaking from his own personal solar setup on his roof in his typical exuberant fashion that sometimes gives the impression of trolling

FWIW I get your point Francisco so much so that I have spent all weekend listening to system with solar and they are free of noise and coloration

The Sun Power micro inverter was built to spec for their Equinox system and as best I'm told they are noiseless.

I will let you know when mine goes in

 

[DaveyF]

In fairness I don't believe Davey was trolling but rather speaking from his own personal solar setup on his roof in his typical exuberant fashion that sometimes gives the impression of trolling

FWIW I get your point Francisco so much so that I have spent all weekend listening to system with solar and they are free of noise and coloration

The Sun Power micro inverter was built to spec for their Equinox system and as best I'm told they are noiseless.

I will let you know when mine goes in

Thank you, Steve.

I guess anytime someone posts a response that some members don't happen to agree with, or like; for those same members it's ok to bring out the troll word.

 

[steve williams]

Let’s exchange information here rather than insults.

 

[microstrip]

(...) FWIW I get your point Francisco so much so that I have spent all weekend listening to system with solar and they are free of noise and coloration

The Sun Power micro inverter was built to spec for their Equinox system and as best I'm told they are noiseless.

I will let you know when mine goes in

Steve,

Your listening does not answer any of the technical aspects I raised. Perhaps no one in WBF is interested in such matters any more, and next week we will have a thread raving the sound quality of wind versus solar ... And by Christmas someone gets a small nuclear power generator ...

Again, I am not addressing what you and others listen, just the technical claims you are intrinsically making.

 

[steve williams]

Francisco

I will make my best claim only after my system goes in. As stated you’ve caught my attention. Based on my due diligence to date I remain concerned but only slightly so

Never once did o ever claim it makes the sound better. Some have said that. I haven’t. I did say that based on a busy weekend that most all replies here have been that they hear no problem.

Rest assured if there is something going on in my system you’ll all hear about it here. As far as the measurements and technical data I am confidant in my selection in every way that I desired wrt my house and rising energy costs I made a good decision. You do raise issues re audio. I will report here

 

[213Cobra]

Steve,

I know a few other people around the country, with hifi and solar co-existing, who have had the same phenomena arise as I have. Others have not. It's all anecdotal until a statistically-significant pattern emerges. I'm just reporting the facts about what happened with me. Again, I don't think anyone should be inhibited about going solar due to worries about consequences to their hifi. You'll solve anything that comes up one way or another.

I haven't heard the battery caution from any vendor, nor would I expect to. A Tesla Model S recently reported going over 400,000 miles on its original battery, and it's not slowing down. The Tesla Powerwall is built from the same battery architecture and building blocks as Tesla car batteries. No doubt Powerwall type products will slowly decline in cost but that's always the case with relatively new tech. The battery system has performed flawlessly in power interruption backup, as well as banking excess solar generation during the day, for discharge in the evening. Other battery chemistries will emerge, but this one is relatively mature. Nothing in my experience signals that Tesla's Powerwall isn't ready for primetime. BTW, we have three electric vehicles -- 2 are EREVs, one is BEV. The oldest is coming up on 6 years old with no evidence of battery degradation. We do on average 96% of our driving on battery-stored electricity.

My system uses two large inverters. The first is dedicated to the solar generating system. The second is dedicated to the Tesla Powerwalls. Panels are Panasonic. I live in the San Fernando Valley where we have *heat.* Especially this summer. Panasonic panels do the best job of maintaining efficiency at high operating temperatures. Though the competitive advantage is small, it's just enough to be actionable, IMO.

Phil

 

[steve williams]

Steve,

I know a few other people around the country, with hifi and solar co-existing, who have had the same phenomena arise as I have. Others have not. It's all anecdotal until a statistically-significant pattern emerges. I'm just reporting the facts about what happened with me. Again, I don't think anyone should be inhibited about going solar due to worries about consequences to their hifi. You'll solve anything that comes up one way or another.

I haven't heard the battery caution from any vendor, nor would I expect to. A Tesla Model S recently reported going over 400,000 miles on its original battery, and it's not slowing down. The Tesla Powerwall is built from the same battery architecture and building blocks as Tesla car batteries. No doubt Powerwall type products will slowly decline in cost but that's always the case with relatively new tech. The battery system has performed flawlessly in power interruption backup, as well as banking excess solar generation during the day, for discharge in the evening. Other battery chemistries will emerge, but this one is relatively mature. Nothing in my experience signals that Tesla's Powerwall isn't ready for primetime. BTW, we have three electric vehicles -- 2 are EREVs, one is BEV. The oldest is coming up on 6 years old with no evidence of battery degradation. We do on average 96% of our driving on battery-stored electricity.

My system uses two large inverters. The first is dedicated to the solar generating system. The second is dedicated to the Tesla Powerwalls. Panels are Panasonic. I live in the San Fernando Valley where we have *heat.* Especially this summer. Panasonic panels do the best job of maintaining efficiency at high operating temperatures. Though the competitive advantage is small, it's just enough to be actionable, IMO.

Phil

Thanks Phil

I agree it is all anecdotal. Are you aware that Panasonic makes the solar panels for Tesla

I really wonder if your single large central inverter is the culprit.

 

[213Cobra]

No one who's investigated this so far suspects the inverter in isolation. Everyone agrees with me that the system irrevocably alters the EMI/RFI bath the house is taking compared to prior. The solar panels are on the roof. The sudden transmission of appliance motor noise on other circuits, into my main system, is still somewhat mysterious. Sometime I may circle back to hunt down root causes but for now, being practical about eliminating the effects by working around the reality of a new power generating system and making system adjustments, removed the distraction. All the associated gear and the batteries are on one end wall of the house, roughly 40' from the spindle of the affected system's turntable. The second system that has been relatively unaffected is about 15' *closer* to the exterior utility wall, and is not on a dedicated line. I think at least half the problem isn't line-borne. In any case, no matter. I've solved the problem through other means. The system is quiet now.

Given Tesla's relationship with Panasonic on the battery side, the two are natural collaborators for solar too. I know Panasonic has been a partner in development of Tesla's solar roof shingles. If they are making Tesla's panels, that would not be surprising, but there were some spec differences between the two companies' glass, last time I looked.

Phil

 

[steve williams]

No one who's investigated this so far suspects the inverter in isolation. Everyone agrees with me that the system irrevocably alters the EMI/RFI bath the house is taking compared to prior. The solar panels are on the roof. The sudden transmission of appliance motor noise on other circuits, into my main system, is still somewhat mysterious. Sometime I may circle back to hunt down root causes but for now, being practical about eliminating the effects by working around the reality of a new power generating system and making system adjustments, removed the distraction. All the associated gear and the batteries are on one end wall of the house, roughly 40' from the spindle of the affected system's turntable. The second system that has been relatively unaffected is about 15' *closer* to the exterior utility wall, and is not on a dedicated line. I think at least half the problem isn't line-borne. In any case, no matter. I've solved the problem through other means. The system is quiet now.

Given Tesla's relationship with Panasonic on the battery side, the two are natural collaborators for solar too. I know Panasonic has been a partner in development of Tesla's solar roof shingles. If they are making Tesla's panels, that would not be surprising, but there were some spec differences between the two companies' glass, last time I looked.

Phil

Hi Phil

If your postulate is correct it begs the question as to why there aren’t 100% solar users who have sound systems that experience what you’re experiencing. There aren’t. So for now it’s all conjecture and I’m only hoping I’m one of the lucky ones

 

[steve williams]

To get back on topic but not withstanding everyone’s concerns for adverse sound effect I made the investment for several reasons
1 rising cost of energy
2. The highest charging electrical company in the nation
3. The rising annual cost of electricity by 4-6 cents per kWh
4. My desire to be as self sufficient as possible wrt electricity. My entire house is LED. Changes have been made wrt HVAC
5. It was a no brainer as the math shows I will have paid for this in just over 4 years.
6. I also like the iPhone app that allows me to what’s in real time what I am using and what I am banking amongst a whole host of
Having said all of that .......

I’ve also said many times caveat emptor so I do take to heart what the experiences have been by a few of you. It’s just that if your theory is correct there would be 100% of audiophiles using PV with that problem.

My hypothesis is related to large single inverter vs a small micro inverter for each panel

 

[Ron Resnick]

Phil, thank you very much for posting here, and for conveying your solar panel system experience! It is great to see you here!

 

[steve williams]

Interesting thread; congrats to Steve for going solar!

Questions: 1) How does a utility "bank" your excess solar power? there has to be some sort of metering, no? 2) How do you "unbank" it? 3) If they manage banking and unbanking, why is this service apparently free? 4) Why wouldn't inverters be noisy? cobra's experience is that they really are; most typical home generators are noisy (natural gas or petrol fueled); 5) are these inverters based on switching technology? 6) How stable are they in delivering power at a constant 50/60 Hz? 7) What's their instantaneous current delivery capability?

-ack

Banking is simple. When you use electricity your dial spins to the right. When you produce more than you use the meter spins to the left as energy is added to the utility grid. No charge other than $11/month. You settle up every 3 months with the company.

As for noise generated im miffed why only a few people have had issues and the majority haven’t.

As a simple example if my meter at the beginning of the month says 1000 and 1300 at the end of the month then I pay for 300 kWh

BUT

If the meter at the end of the month says 700 that means I have banked 300 kWh if electricity

I settle up every three months with the company but afaik no one sells their energy back for 3 cents per kWh . Everyone let’s it ride so your account goes up or down each month. Your account is overdrawn if you use more energy than you have banked at which time I get a bill from the electric company for what I owe.

 

[213Cobra]

Well, consider that I have two systems in the same house, not far apart, and one location is nearly free of ill-effects, and the other was significantly affected. Both systems have the same turntables and DACs. At the time, the phono preamps were the same. Power amps in both were Audion SET, though one pair were 300B and the other 845. Speakers were two different Zu (Definition 4 and Druid 5, at the time). The cable looms are the same.

I went so far as to transfer the tube preamp and amps from the unaffected system to the affected one, and those from the affected system to the unaffected one. The noise problems stayed with the room rather than traveling with the electronics. SET amps are more effective antennas for a wide range of RFI than solid state or push-pull tube, IME. The affected system is under the footprint of the solar array. In the absence of any verifiable line problems, and the room dependency of the noise, I suspect a connection between the array, its RFI emission, and the system location. Hard to verify. Clearly, most people who buy solar who also have high-end hifi systems, do not run relatively exotic SET amps. By my testing, if you have solid state or push-pull tube amps, your odds of having a problem plunge. A tube preamp can be a contributing antenna. Unshielded, handmade, artisanal, Japanese moving coil phono preamps certainly are. If you wanted to narrow down my caution, it might be to avoid SET amps placed directly underneath the footprint of a solar panels array, if you don't want distracting new noises introduced in your hifi. The risks associated with active preamps, unshielded phono preamps, p-p tube amps and Class D amplification fall in increments, in that order. I only exclude mentioning bipolar transistor amps in the risk ladder because I haven't tried one since this change.

Phil

 

[213Cobra]

Glad to be present and accounted for, Ron. -Phil

 

[213Cobra]

Steve,

If it escaped anyone's attention, I emphatically do NOT think a solar decision should be influenced by fears of deleterious effects to one's hifi system(s). There are no downsides to solar if you can shoulder the up-front costs. Get solar. Any audio consequences *will* get sorted!

Phil

 

[steve williams]

Hi Phil

Hopefully I get lucky. I built my room into the house after we moved in and the room has its own separate panel. If memory serves me I used extra thick Romex for the front end and even thicker Romex at the back end. Also the room has 12 dedicated lines so I’ve never experienced EMI/RFI in my system

I believe the system one has today can quickly become lessened by newer better technology tomorrow. However as you said Phil just getting in is what IMO it’s all about. I’m adding 5 extra panels to keep up with 25 years of inflation

The other thing I did was go SunPower Direct rather than using a 3rd party installer who might be here today but gone tomorrow.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Well, consider that I have two systems in the same house, not far apart, and one location is nearly free of ill-effects, and the other was significantly affected. Both systems have the same turntables and DACs. At the time, the phono preamps were the same. Power amps in both were Audion SET, though one pair were 300B and the other 845. Speakers were two different Zu (Definition 4 and Druid 5, at the time). The cable looms are the same.

I went so far as to transfer the tube preamp and amps from the unaffected system to the affected one, and those from the affected system to the unaffected one. The noise problems stayed with the room rather than traveling with the electronics. SET amps are more effective antennas for a wide range of RFI than solid state or push-pull tube, IME. The affected system is under the footprint of the solar array. In the absence of any verifiable line problems, and the room dependency of the noise, I suspect a connection between the array, its RFI emission, and the system location. Hard to verify. Clearly, most people who buy solar who also have high-end hifi systems, do not run relatively exotic SET amps. By my testing, if you have solid state or push-pull tube amps, your odds of having a problem plunge. A tube preamp can be a contributing antenna. Unshielded, handmade, artisanal, Japanese moving coil phono preamps certainly are. If you wanted to narrow down my caution, it might be to avoid SET amps placed directly underneath the footprint of a solar panels array, if you don't want distracting new noises introduced in your hifi. The risks associated with active preamps, unshielded phono preamps, p-p tube amps and Class D amplification fall in increments, in that order. I only exclude mentioning bipolar transistor amps in the risk ladder because I haven't tried one since this change.

Phil

Some great data points Phil, so the potential rfi from switching may be more of an issue with some gear than others is coming through as an emerging theme and that some types of gear then also might thankfully be relatively immune is really useful for us to consider. I did guess that Steve’s system given his approach and also its type would likely be at the less vulnerable end of the spectrum so he can relax on his decision to do the install and also be among the many who are largely sonic issue free. Will be good Steve to find out how things go. Some understanding on this less obvious kind of environmental pollution is especially pertinent for us in this pursuit. Nice to get some balance on it.

Also that the use of shielding and proximity to the source of noise is another factor to take into account.

 

[microstrip]

To get back on topic but not withstanding everyone’s concerns for adverse sound effect I made the investment for several reasons (...)

I just forgot about audio and enviously looked at your first post concerning economics - you refer that you spend around usd 7000 per year with an average anual use of 14,452 kWh - you really pay electricity at more than the the double of the average price of Europe ~around 24 US cents. At those prices people with available area should surely invest in solar panels and sell electricity to others - it looks very profitable. Nowhere in the world I have seen alternative energy investments being fully paid in less than four years!

BTW, I find astonishing that a company can supply a full warranty of 25 years on consumer items, particularly as they are subjected to outdoor conditions and service should be expensive due to access and labor.

 

[microstrip]

Some great data points Phil, so the potential rfi from switching may be more of an issue with some gear than others is coming through as a an emerging theme and that some types of gear then also might thankfully be relatively immune is really useful for us to consider. I did guess that Steve’s system given his approach and also its type would likely be at the less vulnerable end of the spectrum so he can relax on his decision to do the install and also be among the many who are largely sonic issue free. Will be good Steve to find out how things go. Some understanding on this less obvious kind of environmental pollution is especially pertinent for us in this pursuit. Nice to get some balance on it.

Also that use of shielding and proximity to the source of noise is clearly another factor.

It is why I pointed that we should be careful about generalizations and should dig in the technical issues and implementations - Steve owns Lamm equipment, known to be intensively filtered by special RFI power line filter and particularly RFI insensitive - Valdimir Lamm takes this subject very seriously.