The truth about vinyl.vinyl vs digital

[Al M.]

OK- good point. Most times people refer to 'different mastering' they refer to mastering techniques that address phase, LF, HF and limiting. Most mastering studios offer 'vinyl pre-masters' for this reason. RIAA is embedded into the cutting rack and not a mastering engineer decision. So perhaps this is a matter of semantics...

I would say that RIAA equalization doesn't really change anything in the sound, since it is counter-equalized upon playback. In that sense it isn't really a change in the master upon playback comparison with a digital file, for example. Provided of course the scenario that reverse equalization on the playback side is perfect, which may be another issue.

Mastering techniques that address phase, LF, HF and limiting specifically for vinyl are changes in the master.

 

[microstrip]

What bothers me about the media is that good early pressings of jazz, classic rock, and classical titles is expensive to outrageous while digital music is basically dirt cheap to free.

Sadly, the supply of good original vinyl is scarce and the demand is high. I do not think this is going to change anytime soon and it is reflected in prices.

The cost of pursuing digital is in the hardware and software upgrades, not in the music.

Most people are paying for the collectible unobtainium, not for the musical contempt. The usual price champions are the Beatles LPs, I don't think people get them because they sound natural ...

Anyway I have seen rare SACDs being sold at prices comparable to rare vinyl.

Prices are established by demand and offer - there are sites and discusion groups about this subject. For example see https://www.rarerecords.net/vinyl-records-value/

 

[microstrip]

(...) I used to own a Neumann VMS70 cutting system so have had some hands on experience.

Didn't you consider keeping it to operate it as a turntable?

 

[microstrip]

I would say that RIAA equalization doesn't really change anything in the sound, since it is counter-equalized upon playback. In that sense it isn't really a change in the master upon playback comparison with a digital file, for example. Provided of course the scenario that reverse equalization on the playback side is perfect, which may be another issue.

Mastering techniques that address phase, LF, HF and limiting specifically for vinyl are changes in the master.

As far as I have read there are usually different kinds of masters - a ""raw" master and a master prepared for vinyl cutting - for example, this master limits bass separation at low frequencies.

One of the explanations for the poor quality of some early analog sourced CDs was that they were digitized from the tapes processed for vinyl cutting, as the companies owning the master tapes did not want to send the valuable original master tapes.

 

[PeterA]

Most people are paying for the collectible unobtainium, not for the musical contempt. The usual price champions are the Beatles LPs, I don't think people get them because they sound natural ...

Anyway I have seen rare SACDs being sold at prices comparable to rare vinyl.

Prices are established by demand and offer - there are sites and discusion groups about this subject. For example see https://www.rarerecords.net/vinyl-records-value/

I was obviously talking about my own interests not “most people”. If I want to buy 50 classical recordings on early pressings or even originals from the golden era I am buying them for sound quality and musical interest. And they will not be cheap.

this is my experience trying to buy such records. You can refer me to all sorts of articles and tell me what discussion groups I should be joining but I’m not really interested. If you can tell me how to get some of these records that are not very expensive, please send me a PM.

 

[Al M.]

Most people are paying for the collectible unobtainium, not for the musical contempt. The usual price champions are the Beatles LPs, I don't think people get them because they sound natural ...

Anyway I have seen rare SACDs being sold at prices comparable to rare vinyl.

Prices are established by demand and offer - there are sites and discusion groups about this subject. For example see https://www.rarerecords.net/vinyl-records-value/

Great link, thanks!

 

[Al M.]

As far as I have read there are usually different kinds of masters - a ""raw" master and a master prepared for vinyl cutting - for example, this master limits bass separation at low frequencies.

Yes, I was addressing that in #169 via the link therein.

 

[tima]

Most people are paying for the collectible unobtainium, not for the musical contempt.

Micro, do you have a reference for this? There may be a few who collect solely for investment but, I'd like to see more information.

If you want to collect some audio related thing for investment, buy top quality NOS tubes from the 40's, 50's, and 60's.

If I want to buy 50 classical recordings on early pressings or even originals from the golden era I am buying them for sound quality and musical interest. And they will not be cheap.

When I go looking for a record I will typically buy a copy labeled as Mint, especially if it is still sealed and in the US. But it is common not to find any Mint copies but rather the so-called M- or EX. I've found quite a few of those that improve dramatically with one or two cleanings. Imo, quality record cleaning is a necessary tool for today's vinylist. With it I think record collecting (for content) can be done with less expense. A growing issue is shipping time and cost from overseas.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

in Melbourne Australia theres about 60 record stores and only about 5 of these sell cds.record shops have popped up everywhere.vinyl is well and truly alive.

 

[microstrip]

I was obviously talking about my own interests not “most people”. If I want to buy 50 classical recordings on early pressings or even originals from the golden era I am buying them for sound quality and musical interest. And they will not be cheap.

this is my experience trying to buy such records. You can refer me to all sorts of articles and tell me what discussion groups I should be joining but I’m not really interested. If you can tell me how to get some of these records that are not very expensive, please send me a PM.

Peter,

Our exchange of posts is addressed to all WBF members, independently of being an answer to a particular member. You complained for high prices I gave my opinion on why I think they are so. Perhaps I am wrong, someone with more experience than me will be able to explain it better.

I reported my traumatic experience with vintage valuable LPs in WBF some years ago. A coleague inherited from an old uncle about ten thousand classic music LPs and a couple of thousand CDs. The LPs filled his garage, he did not own a turntable and asked me for advice on their value and how to sell them. Decca, Telefunken, DG, EMI, Philips, RCA's, Columbias, Argo, an huge collection of LPs from the early 60's to the 80's in pristine covers and boxes - it looked like the Ali Baba cave. I took a large sample with me and listened - a complete horror, all the LPs sounded like we were played in a noisy kitchen where eggs were being fried. I took another sample - the same. No cleaning or processing could help - the old uncle, who was a knowledgeable musicologist, had ruined the precious LPs along years with a worn stylus that was never replaced. I considered getting them just for the boxes and librettos but fortunately could resist ...

 

[Solypsa]

Didn't you consider keeping it to operate it as a turntable?

Perhaps a little. These 'antiques' need to be preserved to do the work they were built for however. I do regret selling the spare Lyrec motor and platter I had though. I was missing the bearing / decoupler system so sold it to a group in Korea that was building some turntables out of these parts. Should have done the same thing myself...

 

[Solypsa]

...
Mastering techniques that address phase, LF, HF and limiting specifically for vinyl are changes in the master.

Exactly. The fact remains that, for a lot of music, a vinyl master *can or could* be cut from the same digital master as the digital release. Not always but for this discussion it can happen.

 

[microstrip]

Micro, do you have a reference for this? There may be a few who collect solely for investment but, I'd like to see more information.

It is the feeling we get when we go through the sites and discussion groups. I researched the subject when faced with the situation I described in my previous post. BTW most collectors do not collect for investment, they do it just for the pleasure of collecting - the pride of owning, as some people say.

If you want to collect some audio related thing for investment, buy top quality NOS tubes from the 40's, 50's, and 60's.

We will find that when we want to sell them no one wants to give us for a fair price. Tubes are probably valuable in the hands of professional dealers, not of private occasional dealers. They are like LPs - or Lamm's!

When I go looking for a record I will typically buy a copy labeled as Mint, especially if it is still sealed and in the US. But it is common not to find any Mint copies but rather the so-called M- or EX. I've found quite a few of those that improve dramatically with one or two cleanings. Imo, quality record cleaning is a necessary tool for today's vinylist. With it I think record collecting (for content) can be done with less expense. A growing issue is shipping time and cost from overseas.

I also did a few excellent deals buying used LPs mostly on Discogs, but it needs a lot of research and time. Not my current cup of tea, as they say. But yes, proper cleaning is mandatory. And the new customs regulations in Europe are killing our typical overseas source, the UK.

 

[tima]

new customs regulations in Europe

What is this? It took 2 months for a record to arrive from Sweden; the seller blamed US customs.

 

[bonzo75]

Interesting, but could other factors be at play? For example, as I recall, UHQR LPs are pressed on 200g vinyl which is thicker than 180g pressings. Did anyone try raising the VTA ever so slightly to see if that improved the sound of the LP?

You won't get any of these reissues sounding better than their originals if the originals are in good shape. Tried many compares. I like classic records and their stuff is better than speakers corner, but still not as good. Even electric recording company (ERC) which records from master tapes and has ortofon lyrec and tubed equipment to try and come close to the original assembly don't sound anywhere as good

 

[thedudeabides]

Anyway I have seen rare SACDs being sold at prices comparable to rare vinyl.

Yes, I have a few. The Esoteric's releases come to mind. Certain movie soundtracks also.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .
I also did a few excellent deals buying used LPs mostly on Discogs . . .

I seem always to overpay on Discogs.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Yes, I have a few. The Esoteric's releases come to mind. Certain movie soundtracks also.

Esoteric cds sound excellent. i have 2 of them

 

[bonzo75]

I seem always to overpay on Discogs.

Anyone can buy at low prices on discogs. Prices mean nothing unless you understand the pressing you are buying. If you go check out any good LP, e.g. Oistrakh Scottish Fantasia on Decca right now, prices range from 2 euro to 1700 euros. with micro's experience of discogs he will think that the lowest mint price of 10 is an excellent used price.

To buy on discogs you have to not only understand pressings, it is better to know the sellers, who are reliable who are not, how they grade NM etc. Only then will you be able to appropriately pay. Otherwise just buy reissues from standard labels

 

[bonzo75]

Micro, do you have a reference for this? There may be a few who collect solely for investment but, I'd like to see more information.

he doesn't but he did a quick search on some sites to conclude that those who buy originals do so for investment and not for music.