The Voice of the Theater sound...is it what we prefer over the sound of 'live' music??

[morricab]

Morricab,Please reread my OP. As I stated above, there will be people who will need to defend their biases, which is fine, but a bias it is none the less. You happen to like horns above all else, no problem with that...as they recreate music to your taste, but do they recreate it to all others taste..that might be a question that you should ask yourself.

My observation was and is exactly that...MY observation...not necessarily jiving with yours. That observation still stands as per my OP. Plus, when I am talking about Voice of the Theater speakers, I am not actually suggesting that these were the ONLY speakers that sounded this way...there are numerous others that would have the same tonal and dynamic qualities that these had...as I also posted in my OP. Unfortunately, these speakers, at least IMHO, do tend to have a family sound that leads to my theory above.

You obviously didn't read my post carefully. I still really like good planars because they do s lot right but not that "something " a well setup and amplified horn system delivers.

Your point was that you "observed " that the preference or "bias" as you put it, for horns, is due to early exposure to horn theater speakers...did I get that wrong? I pointed out that I think this is a flawed hypothesis for a number of reasons...the most important being a total lack of data to support the supposition.

 

[DaveyF]

I think we can often vastly underestimate the actual dynamics of real instruments - I have never heard a system get anywhere near it.

+1

To recreate a sound that is indistinguishable to a real instrument in our homes is a lofty goal...and one that I don't believe we are that close to achieving. Particularly IF that instrument happens to be a wind instrument or a percussion instrument. If we then listen to a large band or orchestra...the home system falls down even more, IMHO.

 

[DaveyF]

You obviously didn't read my post carefully. I still really like good planars because they do s lot right but not that "something " a well setup and amplified horn system delivers.

Your point was that you "observed " that the preference or "bias" as you put it, for horns, is due to early exposure to horn theater speakers...did I get that wrong? I pointed out that I think this is a flawed hypothesis for a number of reasons...the most important being a total lack of data to support the supposition.

My theory has to do with the question of why so many people like the sound of horns vs. the sound of other designs that are in many ways more capable of reproducing other areas of the audio spectrum in a superior manner...at least to my ears and many others. Like I stated before, the horn system usually portrays dynamics better than almost all other designs that are available to us currently. However, this is their main strength. While I don't expect those that love their horn design to change this preference, it is simply that....a preference.
It would seem that a'philes tend to fall into two basic camps, those that love horn design speakers and those that don't. I don't like them ...at least all of the ones that I have heard..and I have heard numerous models and designs. You like them...as do several other members...all good. My theory that this 'preference' is actually a 'bias' brought on at a very early age by exposure to the type of sound that horns produce...and because many of us were exposed to this kind of family of sound due to the extensive use of these type of speakers, is simply that...a theory. If you want scientific evidence, well go out and see if what I have postulated is in fact of record...and has been scientifically proven. I doubt it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it still cannot be valid.
You say you really like good planars... you do realize that they too have a family sound, YES?

 

[DaveyF]

I think the OP is attempting to understand why a great many of this forum enjoys what he does not.

Please don't try and put words into my mouth. That is in no way why I posted what I did. I fully understand why many on this forum enjoy what I don't...the sound of horns. However, perhaps...you and others, may step back for a minute and try and comprehend why myself and others feel differently..and why it is all good.

 

[PeterA]

I liked a JBL Everest model I heard in NYC once with tubes and vinyl. I did not like an Altec that was completely incoherent. It made a solo violin sound like the strings and fingers were three feet in front of me but the lower registers and wooden body were fifteen feet apart, completely separate from the rest. Very weird experience. The owner came to my system and heard the same recording: Starker/Bach cello suites. He just sat there for two sides, saying nothing and then proclaimed, "So that is what it is supposed to sound like." That was with my old mini monitors.

I have little experience with horns and few dealers around here carry them, so it requires a bit of effort to seek them out, hear them, and learn enough to decide. At least that is my experience. I am open about the typology and would like to learn more. I believe in their potential but wonder about their extension. There has been little discussion about how high and low they go. I've seen super tweeters and cone subs with some models but then I wonder about integration.

Do horn owners not hear a lack of extension, if they do, does it not matter to them? Do horn owners listen to a more limited selection of music. I notice that Tang's videos are all small scale jazz with vocal. How about Holst's Planets on horns or a string quartet? Or Rock? What music do ddk and Jeffrey listen to?

And what about solid state electronics and digital sources? Horn guys tend to prefer tubes and vinyl. Why is that?

Just curious. I've been accused of not getting out enough and hearing alternatives. Perhaps they are right.

 

[jeff1225]

Please don't try and put words into my mouth. That is in no way why I posted what I did. I fully understand why many on this forum enjoy what I don't...the sound of horns. However, perhaps...you and others, may step back for a minute and try and comprehend why myself and others feel differently..and why it is all good.

Like music, Audio is 100% subjective. I don't try to comprehend why some people love Kenny G while I like Miles Davis. It's an exercise in futility.

 

[jeff1225]

I liked a JBL Everest model I heard in NYC once with tubes and vinyl. I did not like an Altec that was completely incoherent. It made a solo violin sound like the strings and fingers were three feet in front of me but the lower registers and wooden body were fifteen feet apart, completely separate from the rest. Very weird experience. The owner came to my system and heard the same recording: Starker/Bach cello suites. He just sat there for two sides, saying nothing and then proclaimed, "So that is what it is supposed to sound like." That was with my old mini monitors.

I have little experience with horns and few dealers around here carry them, so it requires a bit of effort to seek them out, hear them, and learn enough to decide. At least that is my experience. I am open about the typology and would like to learn more. I believe in their potential but wonder about their extension. There has been little discussion about how high and low they go. I've seen super tweeters and cone subs with some models but then I wonder about integration.

Do horn owners not hear a lack of extension, if they do, does it not matter to them? Do horn owners listen to a more limited selection of music. I notice that Tang's videos are all small scale jazz with vocal. How about Holst's Planets on horns or a string quartet? Or Rock? What music do ddk and Jeffrey listen to?

And what about solid state electronics and digital sources? Horn guys tend to prefer tubes and vinyl. Why is that?

Just curious. I've been accused of not getting out enough and hearing alternatives. Perhaps they are right.

I find it interesting that you had your system voiced by Jim Smith. Jim was the person that brought Avantgardes to the USA and currently has Tannoys. Obviously Jim is a horn aficionado, what were his comments regarding your system vs his?

I listen to jazz, classical and rock. Most of my music is post-bop jazz, funk jazz, jazz fusion and modern classical (Glass, Adams, Part, etc.) My speakers are 22khz - 35 hz.

 

[morricab]

My theory has to do with the question of why so many people like the sound of horns vs. the sound of other designs that are in many ways more capable of reproducing other areas of the audio spectrum in a superior manner...at least to my ears and many others. Like I stated before, the horn system usually portrays dynamics better than almost all other designs that are available to us currently. However, this is their main strength. While I don't expect those that love their horn design to change this preference, it is simply that....a preference.
It would seem that a'philes tend to fall into two basic camps, those that love horn design speakers and those that don't. I don't like them ...at least all of the ones that I have heard..and I have heard numerous models and designs. You like them...as do several other members...all good. My theory that this 'preference' is actually a 'bias' brought on at a very early age by exposure to the type of sound that horns produce...and because many of us were exposed to this kind of family of sound due to the extensive use of these type of speakers, is simply that...a theory. If you want scientific evidence, well go out and see if what I have postulated is in fact of record...and has been scientifically proven. I doubt it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it still cannot be valid.
You say you really like good planars... you do realize that they too have a family sound, YES?

You do realize that horn speakers were all but dead in a home environment for 30+ years, with some exceptions in Japan? Stereo basically killed home horns because of size and now you needed two and cost. Horns are more expensive to build and good drivers also more costly. The other factor was amp power and cheap watts allowed speaker makers to make less costly more power hungry speakers...it wasn't for sound quality reasons horns nearly died.

Of course it had to be sold that new power hungry boxes sounded better and consumers played along as they fit lifestyles better and made wives happier.

Truth is what you are seeing is a horn renaissance that along with return of good sounding tube amps is a continuation of the early pioneering hifi work. 20 years ago very few had horns and bad stereotypes abounded...that was the real bias...that horns didn't sound good and it was fed to us all since the 70s.

Your hypothesis about preference is frankly poor and based on your own biases that they don't sound good.

Finally, your thinking that horns only excel at dynamics is flawed as I have heard the best examples out perform all other design types in just about every technical aspect, speed , resolution, transparency, coloration etc.

It is obvious that there are family remblences in planars but they are only resemblances based mainly on dipole dispersion pattern, otherwise they can be radically different and vary greatly in performance envelope.

 

[DaveyF]

You do realize that horn speakers were all but dead in a home environment for 30+ years, with some exceptions in Japan? Stereo basically killed home horns because of size and now you needed two and cost. Horns are more expensive to build and good drivers also more costly. The other factor was amp power and cheap watts allowed speaker makers to make less costly more power hungry speakers...it wasn't for sound quality reasons horns nearly died.

Of course it had to be sold that new power hungry boxes sounded better and consumers played along as they fit lifestyles better and made wives happier.

Truth is what you are seeing is a horn renaissance that along with return of good sounding tube amps is a continuation of the early pioneering hifi work. 20 years ago very few had horns and bad stereotypes abounded...that was the real bias...that horns didn't sound good and it was fed to us all since the 70s.

Your hypothesis about preference is frankly poor and based on your own biases that they don't sound good.

Finally, your thinking that horns only excel at dynamics is flawed as I have heard the best examples out perform all other design types in just about every technical aspect, speed , resolution, transparency, coloration etc.

It is obvious that there are family remblences in planars but they are only resemblances based mainly on dipole dispersion pattern, otherwise they can be radically different and vary greatly in performance envelope.

One thing you are missing from your post above...


These words...In my humble opinion.

Let’s agree to disagree. I get you like horns..and you will defend them to the nth degree, I dislike horns...and think they are a kludge at best....let’s leave it at that. IMHO.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Understanding why some prefer horns and others don’t could be very valuable in our understanding of perceptual bias so is any potentially then a very interesting topic for discussion.

Putting the reason to one slightly skewed kind of environmental condition (respectfully) does not seem a strong contender for the whole solution though IMO.

My earliest trips to movies were equal parts cinema and (please do I really go that far back eeek) drive-ins. So by that logic I’m just as likely to be a fan of small Bose speakers as I might be to be also drawn to VOTT horns then. Actually I’m probably going to be more drawn to listening to subsonics if cinema was an essential part of my environmental verite. Ahhh definitely no... so my hybrid early movie moments would logically result in me going compulsively for a small Bose setup with a sub, something I strangely have never been drawn to at all.

It would make more sense then if early environment was going to set the stage for our audio preferences we might relate to the more direct context of what hifi we were exposed to at home. Or the PA systems at concerts as these are what we more directly associate with replaying recorded music. Cinema was more often primarily about speech rather than mostly music and in the cinema experience the speakers were less obvious with the experience more directed to the screen. Also then our musical preferences are further set by cultural circumstance. So once again for me another great dualitistic divide. The gear environment V the music environment may both be at work and interrelated here in both our gear and music preferences.

As one of those that have spent quite a bit of time with horns and more time with panels and box speakers the question of what horns do and why I am drawn to them as well as panels and boxes has been something I’ve considered along the way. The fact that some just don’t get horns has no more been an issue for me than why some people just don’t get box speakers or others don’t get switched on by panel speakers. For me it’s not necessarily any one precondition but could more reasonably be due to a range of environmental, cultural and physical circumstances and that these may well overlap and then reconfirm themselves.

So first up I have never really seen this as just horns V anti-horns.

After quite some time with many speaker types I have come to view this as rather a horns V panels sonic duality with the at times not so humble dynamic box in the middle of these two great poles. Quite often horn lovers and panel lovers appreciate both yet sonically for me they are both at equal extremes. Dynamic boxes seem to me more middle path in approach and while they struggle to get to what either horns or panels do best they do come from a position that delivers very practically more (quantity of) sound for their footprint.

To get range with either panels or horns often becomes more an issue of logistics so they are always going to suffer the challenges and potential allure of being niche.

What might be very valuable to get is why anyone is particularly drawn to any of these types and what music are we more drawn to play by them. There are clearly constraints and strengths in all these types. By understanding the music and perceptual frameworks we are more drawn to and that all these involve choices and compromises really just confirms how fundamentally inconclusive the notion of best as an absolute can truly be in our pursuit.

 

[jeff1225]

One thing you are missing from your post above...


These words...In my humble opinion.

Let’s agree to disagree. I get you like horns..and you will defend them to the nth degree, I dislike horns...and think they are a kludge at best....let’s leave it at that. IMHO.

Saying "IMHO" doesn't give you blanket protection from critisim. For example, this doesn't work: "IMHO the earth is flat." Or "IMHO the moon landing was faked." It doesn't matter if it's your opinion, or you're humble, you still sound crazy.

But......this commentary is IMHO.

 

[Tango]

Do horn owners not hear a lack of extension, if they do, does it not matter to them? Do horn owners listen to a more limited selection of music. I notice that Tang's videos are all small scale jazz with vocal. How about Holst's Planets on horns or a string quartet? Or Rock? What music do ddk and Jeffrey listen to?

I do like string quartet too Peter. Recently just bought a Schubert string quartet too. I just don’t listen to Orchestra much. Can’t generalize my habit to other horn users. Zerostargeneral probably listens to more orchestra pressings than anyone here also uses horns.

My TAD tweeters go up to 40K. High extension is not lacking. My low is not as low and punchy as Magico.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[DaveyF]

Saying "IMHO" doesn't give you blanket protection from critisim. For example, this doesn't work: "IMHO the earth is flat." Or "IMHO the moon landing was faked." It doesn't matter if it's your opinion, or you're humble, you still sound crazy.

But......this commentary is IMHO.

You have established that your opinion is the only one that counts, and you have also established that you fail to see anything wrong with an ad hominem.
And that’s not just imho....

 

[ddk]

I do like string quartet too Peter. Recently just bought a Schubert string quartet too. I just don’t listen to Orchestra much. Can’t generalize my habit to other horn users. Zerostargeneral probably listens to more orchestra pressings than anyone here also uses horns.

My TAD tweeters go up to 40K. High extension is not lacking. My low is not as low and punchy as Magico.

Kind regards,
Tang

Your speakers are full range Tang, repositioning the speakers in a larger space will allow the bass to breathe and give you more body and, so will a pair Lamms !

david

 

[ddk]

I liked a JBL Everest model I heard in NYC once with tubes and vinyl. I did not like an Altec that was completely incoherent. It made a solo violin sound like the strings and fingers were three feet in front of me but the lower registers and wooden body were fifteen feet apart, completely separate from the rest. Very weird experience. The owner came to my system and heard the same recording: Starker/Bach cello suites. He just sat there for two sides, saying nothing and then proclaimed, "So that is what it is supposed to sound like." That was with my old mini monitors.

I have little experience with horns and few dealers around here carry them, so it requires a bit of effort to seek them out, hear them, and learn enough to decide. At least that is my experience. I am open about the typology and would like to learn more. I believe in their potential but wonder about their extension. There has been little discussion about how high and low they go. I've seen super tweeters and cone subs with some models but then I wonder about integration.

Do horn owners not hear a lack of extension, if they do, does it not matter to them? Do horn owners listen to a more limited selection of music. I notice that Tang's videos are all small scale jazz with vocal. How about Holst's Planets on horns or a string quartet? Or Rock? What music do ddk and Jeffrey listen to?

And what about solid state electronics and digital sources? Horn guys tend to prefer tubes and vinyl. Why is that?

Just curious. I've been accused of not getting out enough and hearing alternatives. Perhaps they are right.

Which model Altec? Don’t forget that there could be a lot wrong with an old speaker and you don’t know what’s been done to it over the years, Altecs in general don’t sound the way you describe them something was very wrong in the system you heard.

The lack of extension you mention is relative to the speakers certainly the earliest Everest easily went down to mid 30’s and latest versions even lower but that’s a true number and not the fantasy ones you get from many manufacturers today. There’s also a texture and quality difference in the bass between the best vintage and most modern drivers which sound slow, mechanical and dead in comparison so even at 50hz the vintage driver can sound richer and more natural. The quality of the bass is a very important facet of vintage horns where sadly the modern horns lack for the most part. As far as top end extension how many of us can hear beyond 16khz? Most modern horns go way beyond that and augmenting a vintage one with a high frequency horn ala Vox Olympian isn’t that difficult if desired. The JBLs all hit 20khz. You need to forget the numbers and just listen to what you get from a well setup large horn system.

Music wise I mostly listen to classical about 70% and my tastes run the gamut from solo instruments to trios, quartets small chamber to concertos, large symphonies aren’t part of my regular diet and don’t enjoy them as much as much as more intimate music even with live. Then about 25% Jazz with a little Rock now & then but I just don’t get into anymore these days. You can play every type of music with horns even rap!

I prefer tubes and analog with every speaker type and avoid the ones that are difficult to drive and force the use of solid state electronics and/or very high powered tube amps.

david

PS. I never heard any horn speakers growing up it was a natural progression to graduate from panels and boxes to SETs and horns which I’ve stayed with for 20 years, this it for me.

 

[awsmone]

Please don't try and put words into my mouth. That is in no way why I posted what I did. I fully understand why many on this forum enjoy what I don't...the sound of horns. However, perhaps...you and others, may step back for a minute and try and comprehend why myself and others feel differently..and why it is all good.

I don’t think technical we can call your contention a ‘theory’ or even a hypothesis, but a conjecture or opinion, which would make it level 5 evidence.

It would seem that it would require far more rigorous formulation to even make it to a hypothesis so that it could be tested

 

[awsmone]

There’s also a texture and quality difference in the bass between the best vintage and most modern drivers which sound slow, mechanical and dead in comparison so even at 50hz the vintage driver can sound richer and more natural. The quality of the bass is a very important facet of vintage horns where sadly the modern horns lack for the most part.

That’s very interesting David
I had noted the same I was just listening to big JBL EVEREST and 4344 versus AV trios, and there was no bass texture at all, something I have noted many times before, could it be that to drive some of these bass units requires an amp with too much feedback, I find dialing the feedback down helps with bloom and texture ...

 

[ddk]

There’s also a texture and quality difference in the bass between the best vintage and most modern drivers which sound slow, mechanical and dead in comparison so even at 50hz the vintage driver can sound richer and more natural. The quality of the bass is a very important facet of vintage horns where sadly the modern horns lack for the most part.

That’s very interesting David
I had noted the same I was just listening to big JBL EVEREST and 4344 versus AV trios, and there was no bass texture at all, something I have noted many times before, could it be that to drive some of these bass units requires an amp with too much feedback, I find dialing the feedback down helps with bloom and texture ...

Some of that has to do with the ridiculous plate amps they use these days, you pay tens of thousands of dollars for a speaker that comes with the cheapest technology built it. Digital crossovers and plate amps are cheap THX creations not for reproducing high quality music, an easy way for manufacturers to build speakers and bypass the complexity of the engineering needed for a proper full range speaker.

david

 

[PeterA]

I find it interesting that you had your system voiced by Jim Smith. Jim was the person that brought Avantgardes to the USA and currently has Tannoys. Obviously Jim is a horn aficionado, what were his comments regarding your system vs his?

Well, Jim may be into tubes and Tannoys. He is also digital only. And I am vinyl only. None of that mattered to me. I read his book, learned its lessons and then hired him to do the last 5% of what I thought my system at that time was capable of. He taught me a lot and it was the best value improvement I have made to my system and audio knowledge. Jim is highly respected in the industry and when I mentioned it to Alon Wolf, he was both surprised and impressed that I was able to get Jim to voice the speakers that made Magico known to the audiophile world.

Jim liked my system very much, but then he does not leave a client until he is completely satisfied with the job he has done. He told me it was very engaging and sounded excellent. After the voicing, he put away his digital and we listened to some LPs. He told me basically that digital will never sound as good as a well set up analog system. He also told me that he had a lower powered Pass Labs amp and that he really liked their products. I also read that he recently voiced a Magico M3 system and thought it was a tremendous speaker. He really likes the Magico speakers that he has voiced, much more than some other brands. He told me a lot about his work with Avantgardes and what happened to that. He may have his preferences, but he also knows that there are many ways to achieve an emotionally engaging system.

I strongly suspect he prefers his system to mine, though he did not make direct comments to me about their differences. Of course, that was about seven years ago now, and my system has improved a lot with new turntable, arm, cartridge, phono and speakers. Jim offers a service where you can visit him and hear his system and learn about a reference sound. He also gives you tips about what to listen for on specific recordings and how changes to the set up affect the sound. You should check it out on his website.

 

[Robh3606]

The lack of extension you mention is relative to the speakers certainly the earliest Everest easily went down to mid 30’s and latest versions even lower but that’s a true number and not the fantasy ones you get from many manufacturers today. There’s also a texture and quality difference in the bass between the best vintage and most modern drivers which sound slow, mechanical and dead in comparison so even at 50hz the vintage driver can sound richer and more natural. The quality of the bass is a very important facet of vintage horns where sadly the modern horns lack for the most part. As far as top end extension how many of us can hear beyond 16khz? Most modern horns go way beyond that and augmenting a vintage one with a high frequency horn ala Vox Olympian isn’t that difficult if desired. The JBLs all hit 20khz.

Hello david

The original Everest system had a shelved response in the last octave by design and was not in anyway flat into the 30's. It was flat to about 40Hz or so. In the design paper they discuss this and recommended a sub if you wanted response to 25Hz. The current system is also rolled off in the 20-30Hz region. None of these systems either modern JBL or vintage Altec, JBL or the folded Horn systems like a Khorn can do the 20-40 octave justice compared to a modern subwoofer system. You need specialized drivers or horn designs like Danley's to get that first octave. I use sub's to augment my main system and my Arrays are good to about 25Hz but they sacrifice efficiency of bandwidth.






Rob