The Voice of the Theater sound...is it what we prefer over the sound of 'live' music??

[ddk]

Hello david

The original Everest system had a shelved response in the last octave by design and was not in anyway flat into the 30's. It was flat to about 40Hz or so. In the design paper they discuss this and recommended a sub if you wanted response to 25Hz. You can't expect 98-100 Db woofers with light cones to have solid bass down to say 30 Hz or below. You need mass and with that you sacrifice efficiency. The current system is also rolled off in the 20-30Hz region. None of these systems either modern JBL or vintage Altec, JBL or the Folded Horn systems like a Khorn can do the 20-40 octave justice compared to a modern subwoofer system. You need specialized drivers or horn designs like Danley's to get that first octave. I use sub's to augment my main system and my Arrays are good to about 25Hz but they sacrifice efficiency of bandwidth.

Rob

My Klangfilms go down to 50hz and then there's a sharp drop off from there. I supplement them with subs down to 30's these days but in reality 50hz horn bass is plenty. How many speakers have ruler flat in room performance even today that can also play real music? I know you can measure test tones from digital subs but that's all they're good for IMO.

david

 

[PeterA]

Which model Altec? Don’t forget that there could be a lot wrong with an old speaker and you don’t know what’s been done to it over the years, Altecs in general don’t sound the way you describe them something was very wrong in the system you heard.

Thanks David, The Altecs looked a bit like these, the A5. I remember them because I thought they were called "The Voice of the Theater", just like this thread. It was a long time ago. I really think the issue was that he listened in the near field, so driver integrations was not good. He used very fancy Kondo tube electronics and R2R tape and a Techinics SP10 mk 2 table. His wife never entered the room which was lined with LPs.

As I wrote, my experience with horns is limited, but I am always interested in learning more about them. I know I would want a dedicated large room if I owned a pair.

 

[Robh3606]

My Klangfilms go down to 50hz and then there's a sharp drop off from there. I supplement them with subs down to 30's these days but in reality 50hz horn bass is plenty. How many speakers have ruler flat in room performance even today that can also play real music? I know you can measure test tones from digital subs but that's all they're good for IMO.

Hello David

Which Klangfilms do you have? They have true bass horns? Must be huge! Almost all of those cinema systems were not true all horn systems they were hybrids. The bass drivers were not typically horn loaded over their full bandwidth. Some were even open back and depended on a large baffle to separate the front and back wave of the woofers. VOTT's even the A2 were essentially big reflex boxes with horns in front of the woofers.

You don't have to do plate amp subs. I use a real amp with an analog crossover and response tailoring.

Rob

 

[morricab]

My Klangfilms go down to 50hz and then there's a sharp drop off from there. I supplement them with subs down to 30's these days but in reality 50hz horn bass is plenty. How many speakers have ruler flat in room performance even today that can also play real music? I know you can measure test tones from digital subs but that's all they're good for IMO.

david

Mine go flat to mid 40s but the "thrust" and mid-bass are so potent that you don't miss the bottom octave and it makes cone speakers that go that low or even lower sound weak and slow by comparison.

 

[ddk]

Hello David

Which Klangfilms do you have? They have true bass horns? Must be huge! Almost all of those cinema systems were not true all horn systems they were hybrids. The bass drivers were not typically horn loaded over their full bandwidth. Some were even open back and depended on a large baffle to separate the front and back wave of the woofers. VOTT's even the A2 were essentially big reflex boxes with horns in front of the woofers.

You don't have to do plate amp subs. I use a real amp with an analog crossover and response tailoring.

Rob

Take a look,

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/show...-Tubes-Vinyl-and-digital-too-Listening-Room-1

david

 

[morricab]

I liked a JBL Everest model I heard in NYC once with tubes and vinyl. I did not like an Altec that was completely incoherent. It made a solo violin sound like the strings and fingers were three feet in front of me but the lower registers and wooden body were fifteen feet apart, completely separate from the rest. Very weird experience. The owner came to my system and heard the same recording: Starker/Bach cello suites. He just sat there for two sides, saying nothing and then proclaimed, "So that is what it is supposed to sound like." That was with my old mini monitors.

I have little experience with horns and few dealers around here carry them, so it requires a bit of effort to seek them out, hear them, and learn enough to decide. At least that is my experience. I am open about the typology and would like to learn more. I believe in their potential but wonder about their extension. There has been little discussion about how high and low they go. I've seen super tweeters and cone subs with some models but then I wonder about integration.

Do horn owners not hear a lack of extension, if they do, does it not matter to them? Do horn owners listen to a more limited selection of music. I notice that Tang's videos are all small scale jazz with vocal. How about Holst's Planets on horns or a string quartet? Or Rock? What music do ddk and Jeffrey listen to?

And what about solid state electronics and digital sources? Horn guys tend to prefer tubes and vinyl. Why is that?

Just curious. I've been accused of not getting out enough and hearing alternatives. Perhaps they are right.

Physical alignment of drivers with horns is crucial and many systems get it wrong. I have heard many that sound as you describe, so the potential for a major screwup is perhaps greater but the ultimate potential seems to be higher. Magico's ultimate speaker is even (other than the bass) a huge horn system, which should tell you something. Have you heard it? I have in Munich a couple of times and it has serious potential, IMO. However, they were using Pass (I know you like them) , which IMO, is not ideal for 100db+ speakers.

Modern horns rarely lack extension in the highs...not since the dawn of stereo in fact. Bass extension is an issue if a true horn is used, less so in hybrid designs. I have horns with actual horn bass and it is flat to the mid 40s hz. That doesn't sound much better than a mini-monitor but the air moved in the mid-bass is a whole other league from a mini-monitor. Think equivalent of multiple 15inch woofers. This gives effortless bass dynamics that a monitor can only dream of having.

My speakers will do large scale music as well as big boxes with better dynamics and I listen regularly to large music.

FWIW, integration is an issue with all three-way and up speakers.

Horns are like a resolution microscope and show up flaws in highs and other artifacts as well as anything out there. Most SS has issues in just these areas (digital too) so it gets highlighted. With horn bass SS amps are often overdamped and this thins out the midbass leaving them sounding bass shy.

Even box bass for horns is often different as high sensitivity pro drivers are often used. These are lighter faster drivers with higher resonance frequencies. In the typical box they benefit also from less damping to get a full sound.

Horns don't need damping from the electronics or high power but need super clean power with regard to human disturbing distortion.

Of course poor horn design is what has setup a bias against them in the general populace...however if you hear how many poor sounding boxes there are out there you realize it is just propaganda that horns have more issues.

 

[DaveyF]

Morricab, what the...does this mean...Modern horns rarely lack the extension in the highs....not since the dawn of stereo in fact”?

I guess it depends on what you consider to be ‘ extension’, lol.

Bass extension is an issue if a true horn is used!

So what's left??? Interesting post....

 

[morricab]

Morricab, what the...does this mean...Modern horns rarely lack the extension in the highs....not since the dawn of stereo in fact”?

I guess it depends on what you consider to be ‘ extension’, lol.

Bass extension is an issue if a true horn is used!

So what's left??? Interesting post....

Are you just trolling now Davey?? Obviously extension beyond 20khz is implied.

Most music has little below 40hz...what your speaker does above that matters a lot. Have heard a true bass horn even?

 

[Legolas]

Are you just trolling now Davey?? Obviously extension beyond 20khz is implied.

Most music has little below 40hz...what your speaker does above that matters a lot. Have heard a true bass horn even?

I agree. hearing the output of a sub on it's own and it sounds like distant traffic rumble .
But try and defeat the sub with full range music and spot the difference, The foundation of the lower regions anchors the whole soundstage. I sold my high end Stax headphone system to go Planars for this very reason. But in the Stax's case the lower end was not only curtailed, the mid bass was also not convincing.

Another thought on this subject. How is it on vinyl. We know even top TTs have a sensitivity to low end rumble. At Munich I noted all the top TT systems had the bass drivers moving around a lot with seemingly meaningless energy. It was low end rumble from the system, not music information. Isn't it better to filter that out in the phono stage?

 

[jeff1225]

Well, Jim may be into tubes and Tannoys. He is also digital only. And I am vinyl only. None of that mattered to me. I read his book, learned its lessons and then hired him to do the last 5% of what I thought my system at that time was capable of. He taught me a lot and it was the best value improvement I have made to my system and audio knowledge. Jim is highly respected in the industry and when I mentioned it to Alon Wolf, he was both surprised and impressed that I was able to get Jim to voice the speakers that made Magico known to the audiophile world.

Jim liked my system very much, but then he does not leave a client until he is completely satisfied with the job he has done. He told me it was very engaging and sounded excellent. After the voicing, he put away his digital and we listened to some LPs. He told me basically that digital will never sound as good as a well set up analog system. He also told me that he had a lower powered Pass Labs amp and that he really liked their products. I also read that he recently voiced a Magico M3 system and thought it was a tremendous speaker. He really likes the Magico speakers that he has voiced, much more than some other brands. He told me a lot about his work with Avantgardes and what happened to that. He may have his preferences, but he also knows that there are many ways to achieve an emotionally engaging system.

I strongly suspect he prefers his system to mine, though he did not make direct comments to me about their differences. Of course, that was about seven years ago now, and my system has improved a lot with new turntable, arm, cartridge, phono and speakers. Jim offers a service where you can visit him and hear his system and learn about a reference sound. He also gives you tips about what to listen for on specific recordings and how changes to the set up affect the sound. You should check it out on his website.

I'm a big Jim Smith fan, have met him personally and get his news letter. I think it's very cool that you had him voice your system.

 

[Al M.]

Jim liked my system very much, but then he does not leave a client until he is completely satisfied with the job he has done. He told me it was very engaging and sounded excellent. After the voicing, he put away his digital and we listened to some LPs. He told me basically that digital will never sound as good as a well set up analog system.

That was seven years ago. From his posts elsewhere I suspect he has changed his opinion on digital vs. analog, but I may be mistaken.

 

[Legolas]

That was seven years ago. From his posts elsewhere I suspect he has changed his opinion on digital vs. analog, but I may be mistaken.

The MSB Select and Aries Cerat Kassandra S LE are products that have changed peoples mind about digital not having any soul.

Back to the OP, my first experiences of music was listening to my Dad's valve gramophone. Deep, warm and cuddly would be how I would describe it. It also had a radio built in, the things was huge.
The modern sound I get now is far away from that of course, but it wasn't until the last 2 years I got close to the engagement and soul I could hear in the old valve setup. IMO the live event should be the target we should aim for, not a fuzzy sound system in the cinema. Though I understand the analogy of it, and when we were young these early impressions are obviously huge.

 

[Robh3606]

Bass extension is an issue if a true horn is used!

Hello Davey

That is simply not true. Almost all modern domestic systems simply don't put an emphasis on the 20-40Hz range from a design stand point. You can get into the low 20's with modern bass horns. You need to design the system from the ground up using a properly designed horn loaded subwoofer as the foundation. In most cases you are going to end up with a 4 way systems. The real issue is size and weight of the bass horns which are big and heavy.

Rob

 

[Al M.]

The MSB Select and Aries Cerat Kassandra S LE are products that have changed peoples mind about digital not having any soul.

That is because great digital more manages to let us hear the accurate representation of the analog signal given by the Nyquist theorem, rather than just an approximation or extrapolation thereof as in earlier implementations of digital.

 

[Legolas]

Hello Davey

That is simply not true. Almost all modern domestic systems simply don't put an emphasis on the 20-40Hz range from a design stand point. You can get into the low 20's with modern bass horns. You need to design the system from the ground up using a properly designed horn loaded subwoofer as the foundation. In most cases you are going to end up with a 4 way systems. The real issue is size and weight of the bass horns which are big and heavy.

Rob

Naa, you can build them smaller than that...

 

[Robh3606]

Hello David

Those a really nice! I see you have a pair of JBL B460's subs behind them. Are you still using them? Do you use the Bx-63 with them? I use B380's as my stereo subs with a BX-63-1 So you are running dipole bass. Were they used that way originally or would they be integrated into a wall behind the screen to be used as an infinite baffle set up?

Rob

 

[Robh3606]

Naa, you can build them smaller than that...

Lol what the heck is that a foghorn!?

Rob

 

[ddk]

Hello David

Those a really nice! I see you have a pair of JBL B460's subs behind them. Are you still using them? Do you use the Bx-63 with them? I use B380's as my stereo subs with a BX-63-1 So you are running dipole bass. Were they used that way originally or would they be integrated into a wall behind the screen to be used as an infinite baffle set up?

Rob

Hi Rob,

Still using the JBL subs but the front wall is finished now, I use a custom tube crossover based on the BX63 with them. That’s how the speakers came from the factory, they were meant to be standalone. I have the B380’s too used them in another setup with Vitavox KHorns but now I have the JBL M9500 in that room.

david

 

[DaveyF]

Hello Davey

That is simply not true. Almost all modern domestic systems simply don't put an emphasis on the 20-40Hz range from a design stand point. You can get into the low 20's with modern bass horns. You need to design the system from the ground up using a properly designed horn loaded subwoofer as the foundation. In most cases you are going to end up with a 4 way systems. The real issue is size and weight of the bass horns which are big and heavy.

Rob

I quoted what Morricab stated in his post...and then he has the temerity to call me a Troll for quoting his post and questioning his illogic....States MODERN horns from the dawn of stereo, LOL. IME, There is plenty of information available and NECESSARY for the reproduction to sound realistic below 40Hz. Much less available above 20khz.

 

[cjfrbw]

My Altec Voice of the Theater experience was in Turlock, CA way back in the olden days when I was a sophomore at Cal. I was staying at a house in Berkeley for the summer session at school, and a guy in the house had a friend we visited. He had a room with the enormous Altec speakers. I don't remember the ancillary gear, vinyl and Dyna toobz of some kind, but I never had a duplicate experience hearing Led Zeppelin like that. Very loud but oddly listenable.

I also loved the music sound in theaters with the horns. I remember the first Alien movie, and hearing that lonely horn coming from the lower part of the huge screen. I have the vinyl sound track now, but it still doesn't match the memory.