Today a special listening

[Al M.]

You can easily have reality without clarity...I even gave Peter some examples. I could also play a trumpet under a blanket and it will sound real but not very clear. You can also have clarity without dynamics and presence and then it will lack reality...any number of high speakers will deliver this.

Good additional points, Brad.

 

[Al M.]

Al, you are a thinker. Some shy from concept and limit themselves to more concrete things and I love the way contributors here throw themselves into synthesis and higher order thinking.

Thank you, I'm trying

So while it is quite hard to differentiate between notions like real, natural, clear, musical, transparent, coherent etc it is valuable that we try and they all are certainly potentially an asset but the appearance of any one doesn’t necessarily guarantee the presence of any other in outcome. Though certainly when they are all in ways mutually present that is when we actually get to some form of absolute rightness.

Well put. I think a holistic approach to a system's sound ultimately provides the most satisfaction, rather than focusing too much on one particular aspect and trying to maximize it just on its own. Of course, absolute rightness is not quite attainable, but we can strive, within our means.

These qualities like clarity and realness are holistic assessments and while on the surface it might seem logical one might buy us the other they can indeed be wholly separate values.

Indeed.

 

[the sound of Tao]

You can easily have reality without clarity...I even gave Peter some examples. I could also play a trumpet under a blanket and it will sound real but not very clear. You can also have clarity without dynamics and presence and then it will lack reality...any number of high speakers will deliver this.

Ah yes, the under blanket trumpet player reveals all eventually! 100 per cent there are many scenarios where clarity does not equal reality. Some class d gear seems to truncate decay giving the appearance of black between notes and making the attack of the ensuing note seem more clear but overall this effect is neither very real nor natural. Some gear also leans towards hyping the detail making the sound seem more obvious or clear and defined but in the outcome the effect is unbalanced and seems too sensational and simply unnatural and unreal because of this.

 

[microstrip]

Hi Micro,

The above is just my process, as I say in the first line. And although written with my tongue in my cheek, it's nevertheless not intended to be a recommendation for others to follow or adopt.

(...)

Surely, but when one of the most brilliant posters in WBF posts such well thought list some of us feel we should give our views on it.

 

[microstrip]

I think 6 and 7 should be adhered to by digital people challenging analog in threads.

I fail to understand what you mean by this comment.

 

[JackD201]

You have a prefession in this field Jack .

True but I can tell you with absolute certainty that I am no guru. I'm just borderline OC when it comes to coherence so much so that I learned from trial and error for the most part. Anybody can do it if they are persistent enough

 

[the sound of Tao]

Jack, I think we share sensitivities. I’m 100 per cent a coherence junkie. It is for me a make or break quality and coherence is the reality maker or reality breaker as well. Both time and space coherency make the strongest desire to dance... and the body knows. Most other audible qualities are for me forgiveable but incoherence is not one... ever. Timing and spatial incoherence always reminds me exactly of what is just not at all real.

 

[BMCG]

mostly I just always contemplate using the 'cancel' button prior to the 'post reply' button. then after my post I read it again and think about the delete button. is my post about the subject or the person? it is relevant? pegging any internal meters? Will the post make my day a little more positive, or make my day more troubled? that about covers it. just common sense.

I am many times relieved that my late night 'brainless' posts has not yet been answered so I can still stealthily delete it the next morning. always lifts a dark cloud.

+1 the number of times i've deleted readily exceed the posts....probably could with this one....but believe Mike's points warrant an underscore.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

True but I can tell you with absolute certainty that I am no guru. I'm just borderline OC when it comes to coherence so much so that I learned from trial and error for the most part. Anybody can do it if they are persistent enough

+1000.

"persistent enough" being the operative phrase.

taming a large room with big, very dynamically capable, truly full range, speakers there is only one direction you can go. complete coherence. like shooting for the moon, off by 'a little' misses by 100,000 miles.......and jumps out at you. and it only took 10 years for the clouds to part and for me to recognize what coherence was. once I 'got' it in my head it seemed obvious what to do. then the actual useful work began.

 

[JackD201]

Ah yes, the under blanket trumpet player reveals all eventually! 100 per cent there are many scenarios where clarity does not equal reality. Some class d gear seems to truncate decay giving the appearance of black between notes and making the attack of the ensuing note seem more clear but overall this effect is neither very real nor natural. Some gear also leans towards hyping the detail making the sound seem more obvious or clear and defined but in the outcome the effect is unbalanced and seems too sensational and simply unnatural and unreal because of this.

It appears so Tao. In all these years I don't think I've disagreed with you once. If I show you sketches I made for my planned hillside rest house two years ago (I already bought the lot) you'll really laugh. Yours renderings and architectural details are FAR better but the fundamental look is uncannily similar!

 

[JackD201]

Indeed Mike. We just gotta keep plugging away

 

[thedudeabides]

I never understood why some believe monitors throw a huge sound stage, and not in my experience. In almost every case, monitors require sub(s) and don't match the sound stage size and dynamics of floor standers.

I would have agreed with this statement until I optimized my recently purchased Joseph Audio Pulsar speakers with a single REL T7i sub in my new house. In many instances, it is the equal or better than my previous speakers including the MBL 116's and the Martin Logan Summit. As we all know, it's all in the details.

I am beyond thrilled with the results.

 

[microstrip]

True but I can tell you with absolute certainty that I am no guru. I'm just borderline OC when it comes to coherence so much so that I learned from trial and error for the most part. Anybody can do it if they are persistent enough

Jack,

You summarize the reason why I have such a broad acceptance of gear, but also why I am so critical in matching - my main parameter for enjoying a system is coherence, a subjective term that IMHO is a step above in our scale of usual subjective sound reproduction adjectives.

As you say, we learn about coherence mostly from our experience, unfortunately many times by error, but a a few audio writers have masterly addressed coherence when referring to equipment that can shine in this aspect - for example Harry Pearson review of cj ART preamplifier, or Paul Seydor also in TAS about the Quad ESL 989.

 

[jeff1225]

I would have agreed with this statement until I optimized my recently purchased Joseph Audio Pulsar speakers with a single REL T7i sub in my new house. In many instances, it is the equal or better than my previous speakers including the MBL 116's and the Martin Logan Summit. As we all know, it's all in the details.

I am beyond thrilled with the results.

The Dude, congrats on your purchase of the Pulsars, I bet they really tie the room together. Are you going to post your system with the new speakers? Several years ago I heard the Pulsars at CES with Ayre electronics (i think it was Ayre anyway) and was absolutely floored by the quality. That system was my best in show that year.

 

[thedudeabides]

Jeff,

System details in my profile. The goal with the new speakers was to have a small physical presence with a large sonic footprint. The change has vastly exceeded my expectations in all areas.

BTW, Jeff Joseph demos without subs at audio shows. Adding the REL had a substantial positive impact on the entire sonic signature and the blend, to my ears, is virtually seamless.

Gordon

 

[Al M.]

I would have agreed with this statement until I optimized my recently purchased Joseph Audio Pulsar speakers with a single REL T7i sub in my new house. In many instances, it is the equal or better than my previous speakers including the MBL 116's and the Martin Logan Summit. As we all know, it's all in the details.

I am beyond thrilled with the results.

Congratulations! Yes, the soundstage from monitor/sub combos can be really big, only in very large rooms (that few people have) they are eventually bound to lose out to large full-range floor standers. People who have heard my system also, and mostly in surprise, report on the 'big sound'. From comparisons with other systems I have heard, I am confident not to expect that in my mid-sized room (24 x 12 x 8.5 feet) a full-range floor stander would throw a larger soundstage than my monitor/sub combo does (the size of certain images within that soundstage might be another matter).

Yes, full-range floor standers may have other advantages, but soundstage size, at least in less than really large rooms, is not among them, in my experience.

 

[DaveyF]

Last night after a long listening session, I realized that I still have work to do. I dialed in the subs..and they are now seamless with the mains, which is no easy task as the mains are very quick ( some have likened them to stats in this regard). After about an hour, i realized, that my new speaker positioning might not be optimal. ( the new positioning is slightly toed in with the tweets firing towards just outside each ear...and along with the suggested SF guide in this regard). So, onwards we go with more experimenting. Anybody else still dialing in their system?

 

[andromedaaudio]

No man its all said and done .
On the acoustics front i might change however , if all goes well i ll be having a new job in brussels belgium , so if i buy/rent a house there, im gonna pay special attention to acoustics if possible.
A trapezium shaped noise isolated room would be ideal

 

[thedudeabides]

Last night after a long listening session, I realized that I still have work to do. I dialed in the subs..and they are now seamless with the mains, which is no easy task as the mains are very quick ( some have likened them to stats in this regard). After about an hour, i realized, that my new speaker positioning might not be optimal.

That matches my experience. Changing the "mains" will likely require a sub adjustment regarding placement, volume level, x-over setting, etc. The reverse is also true. I'm taking it slow, avoiding OC behavior and enjoying the process. I think I found the "magic" combination or, at least to my ear, something that's pretty darn close.

 

[the sound of Tao]

It appears so Tao. In all these years I don't think I've disagreed with you once. If I show you sketches I made for my planned hillside rest house two years ago (I already bought the lot) you'll really laugh. Yours renderings and architectural details are FAR better but the fundamental look is uncannily similar!

Absolutely likewise Jack, tho even I have disagreed with me more than once... great to see you involved in designing your spaces, somehow for me when I design they all end up ultimately a pavillion of listening spaces so functional me sometimes also disagrees with me. I’d love to see your vision for your hillside retreat sometime... am sure given your moderation and values that I would also likely love it as well.