Todd's AG Trio G3 System -- it's about time
- Thread starter sbnx
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Hello. Had some time today to continue the dial in process. I worked a lot understanding the impact of small tweeter movements. I made this video to show a little about the adustable tweeter. Again, just stream of consciousness.
I think that this link to a visit of Leo Yeh to the AvantGarde factory will be of interest to people reading this thread.
https://tw-my--hiend-com.translate.goog/?????????-??avantgarde-acoustic????/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp
It includes videos with the proper summaries. Be careful when reading the text - it is translated to english using google translator!
https://tw-my--hiend-com.translate.goog/?????????-??avantgarde-acoustic????/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp
It includes videos with the proper summaries. Be careful when reading the text - it is translated to english using google translator!
What’s very good with the videos in the link micro posted, and which is indeed the strength of trios I felt in person too , is the weight you feel including on the vocals. The chest, that gives it a realism. And crystal clarity that lets you get the whole linearity with that weight. Sure, someone can be anal and point to the fact that the top end timbre is not Analog feel, but digital metallic…but that doesn’t bother me with trios
however for that weight feel bass horns are required IMO. Makes it crazy real/natural/absolute, though in this case the bass is a bit disco not sure why
however for that weight feel bass horns are required IMO. Makes it crazy real/natural/absolute, though in this case the bass is a bit disco not sure why
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Ked, would you/could you also describe that “weight” has tonal density? Tonal relief (a form of microdynamics as I hear it)? Or something else, perhaps just weighted in the fundamental of the voice/instrument?
I was surprised when I saw that you brought the tweeters forward after toe-in unlike the other setups of trio g3 which have tweeters moved back after toe-in!
You said that when the speaker is toed-in, the tweeter moves away from you and should come forward, But what has been said and seems reasonable is that when the new trios are toed-in and the tweeters is point directly at ears, then the tweeter must be moved back to make the alignment correct again, because with toe-in, distance of that offset tweeter is closer to the ear than other drivers.
At Axpona last year(first pic from the left) and also other setups, when trio was fully toed-in and the audience was sitting too close, the tweeters were pushed back for achieving physical alignment again to prevent any harshness.
What matters from a time-alignment setup is that the top of the tweeter horn is 48.5cm farther away from your ear than the top of lower midrange horn as Todd explained in the video. Here is the page from the manual that explains it.
IMO, after 20 years of happy Trio ownership, I have found 25m2 is nothing like being a big enough room for them as I don't think it allows the drivers to integrate properly & still image properly. After setting them up in three rooms I think around 40m2 must be a bare minimum.
I have found there are a number of factors to balance out. Although they all interrelate, in my head I make the following broad observations:
- As said above, Rake is all important and deals with tonality...
- Distance apart and toe in mostly sorts imaging. (FWIW I don't favour an equilateral triangle, I like to be further away than the width between the speakers.)
But I have found the challenge with Trios is to get the above more or less right then look to how well the broadly acceptable sound integrates between the drivers - I think its a case of being far enough away from them so they integrate properly in that specific room.
In my experience moving further away from them can make the overall cohesiveness of the sound lock into place, but then the toe in or rake or even distance apart may need tweaking. Like setting up a cartridge, everything affects everything else and altering one parameter means you have to go back and revisit the others.
Maybe I'm just sensitive to how well the drivers integrate.
Basically I suppose I am agreeing with SBNX that they have to be positioned really precisely.
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I am inclined to agree. I struggle to imagine 25m2 being enough space to do get great sound with the Trios, though Ked mentioned above that he has heard Trios in a 30m2 room sound very good. With my Duo Mezzo XD's I'd think 25m2 is still on the very low side of acceptable. My room is 55m2 and hope I can get the Trios to work as well as Todd has, though my setup skills and patience are not on par with his.
Thanks for posting the pics. I took several photos of the trios at Axpona and at Angie's but never took a pic of the tweeter scale.
Thansk to @Germanboxers for posting a pic of the relevant manual page. I applaud AG for putting these things in the manual with diagrams but I think it is still a little more confusing than it should be. Perhaps it is the translation to English. But, the 5th paragraph down on the right hand side of the page states "The tweeter needs to be moved forward when toeing-in and backwards when toeing-out". This makes sense to me.
There are two parts that aren't clear. One is where to measure on the tweeter horn (top, bottom, inner edge or outer edge). Jerome showed me but I just can't remember. I was origianlly using the bottom as it was close to the top of the big horn. I used the laser distance meter and took several measurements using the bottom of the tweeter horn and several measurements using the top of the tweeter horn. I came up with an average of 6mm difference between the two. So it definitley matters which one is correct. I have sent an e-mail off to the distributor to get clarification on this.
The other point that is not so clear is what is meant by toe-in and toe-out. In the manual it shows that the line of the big horns is pointed at the listeners ear. (Perhaps this is the zero point on the scale.) So, If I rotate the speaker to point the tweeter at my ear I am technically toeing-out the speaker. This seems counter to what they are talking about with regards to imaging focus since pointing the tweeter at the ear tightens up the focus. I don't know. But once I get the spot on the tweeter horn that I am supposted to measure distance it doesn't really matter as I just shoot for the magic 48.5cm.
To me there is one correct position for the tweeter. I don't trust where they put the tweeter at a show to serve as a guide. I don't think there is one person that likes listening to a bright speaker. And they want people to like what they hear. So they can adjust the tweeter position and use it like a "tone control" of sorts. Push the tweeter back and the upper end gets dull and muted. This is exactly what I heard at both demos.
I have only heard the trios in rooms bigger than 25m2. My room is about 57m2 and is definitely big enough to accomodate them.
Ked has heard a ton of systems and I would defer to him on what he has heard in different sized rooms that he thought worked.
Yes, without a doubt, the meaning of toe-in mentioned in the manual is when tweeter starts pointing from the outer edge of the ear to the inside of the ear, and toe-out is when tweeter starts pointing from the outer edge of the ear to the outside, so when the tweeter points right inside the ear, it has a greater distance from the ear and it should come forward to reach that 48.5 cm, but in shows like Axpona or the Avantgarde room itself and some other Showrooms that I posted pics of the tweeter scales, for these setup situations where there are more listeners, The main goal is a wider image and not more focus, because the coverage of the listeners is more important, so in fact the Trios are toed-out(from pointing at ears), and in this mode, the tweeters are closer to the ears and have to move back.
I am a little confused on how we should define the time alignment of horns - due to the horn reflections the length of the sound path from the central zone of the horn could be very different from that of coming from a border reflection.
Do we have any picture showing ray tracing in an Avantgarde horn?
Do we have any picture showing ray tracing in an Avantgarde horn?
Hi I heard them in the 6m x 5m room and also in the AG factory room which is pretty big. As I mentioned in the previous post, with most full range horns big space would get you more, but if I were in the market for a AG trio, I would go ahead with the 6m x 5m room I heard them in and be happy. Of course I would be happier if it were 10m x 5 or 7m.
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